Happy New Year!
Trying to put together a really dynamic clean system.
I was intending to use a dipole 12 inch from 50 – 300 Hz.
After recent listening, I’m swinging over to horns, and it seems if I change the mid-bass XO from 300 to about 500 Hz, it’ll make it easier to find a really good horn mid system.
The Labhorn is apperently great to about 100-150 Hz.
What bass horn system is really good over about 50 – 500 Hz??
Cheers
Richard
Trying to put together a really dynamic clean system.
I was intending to use a dipole 12 inch from 50 – 300 Hz.
After recent listening, I’m swinging over to horns, and it seems if I change the mid-bass XO from 300 to about 500 Hz, it’ll make it easier to find a really good horn mid system.
The Labhorn is apperently great to about 100-150 Hz.
What bass horn system is really good over about 50 – 500 Hz??
Cheers
Richard
Very few. A horn long enough to go to 50 Hz is going to be folded, and that pretty much limits the high end to perhaps 400 Hz. Labhorn is way too big for home use. Corner loaded my Tuba 24 works pretty good to the thirties, but is limited to about 250 Hz at best on the upper end. I personally run a folded horn sub to 80 Hz and then go to a line array for the midbass/tweeters, as it's a lot more space efficient than horns and still has good sensitivity at 99-100dB and is a lot flatter in response than most horns as well.
rick57 said:
If you go that route you'll have problems with time delay UNLESS you have a digital eq. (which means multiple amps).
Don't give up on the idea of dipole use in that range unless your absolutely fixed on no more than one 12 inch with high eff. and low cost.
I gather that you don't think the sound has enough "punch" based on recent listening? This can be compenstated for via driver selection and loading..
Magenetar has had great success with his dipole Karlson in this freq. range. (and he is a horn-(dog)). Might try posting on the High Eff. board of the Audio Asylum to get his response on the situation.
You've gotten my suggestion on the right driver for midrange and treble (the McCauley and BMS). Now lets look to 50-300 Hz range for a dipole with similar eff. and low cost..
My pick would be (depending on freq. extension with amp use):
60-300: 1 Eminence Big Ben (designed to be an "open-back" aka dipole speaker) for use with low output impeadance amps (like most solid state amps).
http://editweb.iglou.com/eminence/eminence/pages/products02/redcoat/bigben.htm
widely available
30-300: 2 Madison Knight 15's for use with high output impeadance amps (like most SET amps).
http://madisonspeakers.netfirms.com/rawdrivers.htm
available from SteelSound
Now as to the loading:
Karlson's were marketed as providing extended bass response, but they don't do this - however they DO something to the output in the freq. range were talking about (in the size were talking about) - something that does add significantly to a "punchy" character (aka "slam").
Bill
What drivers do you use for the line array midbass?
IIRC, line arrays are directional, based on the height of the array. I have a few Peerless XLSs, which are 90 dB each. They’re fairly flat up to 490 Hz break-up.
To avoid the break-up would need a 4th order at about 280 Hz. I wonder how they might suit being in an array of four?? SAF?
Scott
I think I’m going to end up with multiple amps, though several of them may not need much power. As above, I certainly don’t mind more than one 12 inch a side.
I really like the naturalness of dipole bass (as heard in the Orion). I am looking for punch as well. Sometimes I’ve thought, use dipole as the primary bass up to say 250 Hz, and when the mood or the music suits, supplement it with bass from another pair of xx from say 60 – 200 Hz.
XLSs would make very compact sealed woofers, but may not quite have the ultimate transient oomph. A higher sensitivity (eg 96-98 dB) pro driver would be good, but I was thinking in a vented box as a horn over that range would be too big.
I’m in Australia - SteelSound who’s drivers seem very good value, alas like a lot a lot of American businesses, don’t export 🙁
But Eminence are sold here. I see they have a sense of humour at Eminence (the driver names). Big Ben looks like fun, but the FR shows a slump about 70-100 Hz, maybe a box could support that. I’ll try to model it later but the specs have an error as they state Xmax is 0. I’ll contact a local dealer.
I see the Qts of the Eminence drivers varies enormously. I agree two a side is probably warranted/ better.
Yes loading:
Have you heard Magenetar’s dipole Karlson??
** Is the “adding significantly to a punchy character (aka slam)” a hump in FR, or heightened dynamics?
Yes, I should post HE to AA.
What drivers do you use for the line array midbass?
IIRC, line arrays are directional, based on the height of the array. I have a few Peerless XLSs, which are 90 dB each. They’re fairly flat up to 490 Hz break-up.
To avoid the break-up would need a 4th order at about 280 Hz. I wonder how they might suit being in an array of four?? SAF?
Scott
I think I’m going to end up with multiple amps, though several of them may not need much power. As above, I certainly don’t mind more than one 12 inch a side.
I really like the naturalness of dipole bass (as heard in the Orion). I am looking for punch as well. Sometimes I’ve thought, use dipole as the primary bass up to say 250 Hz, and when the mood or the music suits, supplement it with bass from another pair of xx from say 60 – 200 Hz.
XLSs would make very compact sealed woofers, but may not quite have the ultimate transient oomph. A higher sensitivity (eg 96-98 dB) pro driver would be good, but I was thinking in a vented box as a horn over that range would be too big.
I’m in Australia - SteelSound who’s drivers seem very good value, alas like a lot a lot of American businesses, don’t export 🙁
But Eminence are sold here. I see they have a sense of humour at Eminence (the driver names). Big Ben looks like fun, but the FR shows a slump about 70-100 Hz, maybe a box could support that. I’ll try to model it later but the specs have an error as they state Xmax is 0. I’ll contact a local dealer.
I see the Qts of the Eminence drivers varies enormously. I agree two a side is probably warranted/ better.
Yes loading:
Have you heard Magenetar’s dipole Karlson??
** Is the “adding significantly to a punchy character (aka slam)” a hump in FR, or heightened dynamics?
Yes, I should post HE to AA.
I haven't heard it - but he has explained pretty well what he likes, and he likes "punch". As far as what the Karlson is doing to the signal - I don't know, and I don't think others do either. (I have a guess, but you wouldn't like it.) Yes their probably is an increase in level, but I don't think it explains the perception of "punch" though it may add slightly. For instance I can eq. up more in the upperbass/lower mids by 6 or 7 db.s and still not get that "punch" feeling with a driver that doesn't have it.
I don't think the eminence has much x-max at all, but it IS designed to be open-back (in otherword like the McCauleys lack of "q" related params, its pointless). What this means of course is that it should be quite good unless your looking for extreme spls without a lot of distortion (and I wouldn't be at all surpised if it rarely had more than 1 watt feeding it unless your approaching deafness). I think the depresion is likely baffle-loss related (i.e. the H fram baffles that a guitar "box" uses have very shallow sides). Also recognize that if you do use a tube amp with a specific output impeance that you will likely get more usable extension.
I don't think the eminence has much x-max at all, but it IS designed to be open-back (in otherword like the McCauleys lack of "q" related params, its pointless). What this means of course is that it should be quite good unless your looking for extreme spls without a lot of distortion (and I wouldn't be at all surpised if it rarely had more than 1 watt feeding it unless your approaching deafness). I think the depresion is likely baffle-loss related (i.e. the H fram baffles that a guitar "box" uses have very shallow sides). Also recognize that if you do use a tube amp with a specific output impeance that you will likely get more usable extension.
If the Eminence specs say 0mm xmax, it means the coil length is the same as the top plate thickness and so it has 0mm of xmax by the common definition. Also, the Big Ben is a guitar speaker. Guitar speakers are usually designed to have cone breakup.
You can see pics and descriptions of both my line arrays and my subs (TLAH and Tuba 18 is what I use in my home) at my website.
Hi
I tried to post the following to the Karlson forum http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/: the question -
Which currently produced drivers are suitable for a Karlson, and/ or what driver parameters are critical, eg Qts? Vas?
But that forum is down for posts at present.
Can anyone here answer that question?
Scott – the idea of a *pair of Madison Knight 15s – were you implying a pair of boxes a side, or is there a way to fit two bass drivers in one Karlson enclosure? Double height??
Did you suggest the Big Ben and Madisons because of the very low Xmax – is that desirable for a Karlson?
If you’ve read SL’s site, you know that in an open-back, high Xmax is desirable (with EQ if you want flat response without a big baffle). Even from 120 Hz up, his 8 inchers have IIRC 6.5 mm Xmax. I guess the Big Ben is using size rather than Xmax.
I read once that there is nothing special about a Karlson, it’s just an odd BR variant. But perhaps there is some horn loading in the upper bass?
John
Yes the Big Ben is a guitar speaker, bit *if the published FR is correct, cone breakup doesn’t occur until above 1 kHz. It has quite low inductance, which (like Lambdas too) often seems to correlate with extended response for a bass driver. Though for this project I only want to cover up to 300 or 500 Hz.
What do you think of Karlsons?
Regards
I tried to post the following to the Karlson forum http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/: the question -
Which currently produced drivers are suitable for a Karlson, and/ or what driver parameters are critical, eg Qts? Vas?
But that forum is down for posts at present.
Can anyone here answer that question?
Scott – the idea of a *pair of Madison Knight 15s – were you implying a pair of boxes a side, or is there a way to fit two bass drivers in one Karlson enclosure? Double height??
Did you suggest the Big Ben and Madisons because of the very low Xmax – is that desirable for a Karlson?
If you’ve read SL’s site, you know that in an open-back, high Xmax is desirable (with EQ if you want flat response without a big baffle). Even from 120 Hz up, his 8 inchers have IIRC 6.5 mm Xmax. I guess the Big Ben is using size rather than Xmax.
I read once that there is nothing special about a Karlson, it’s just an odd BR variant. But perhaps there is some horn loading in the upper bass?
John
Yes the Big Ben is a guitar speaker, bit *if the published FR is correct, cone breakup doesn’t occur until above 1 kHz. It has quite low inductance, which (like Lambdas too) often seems to correlate with extended response for a bass driver. Though for this project I only want to cover up to 300 or 500 Hz.
What do you think of Karlsons?
Regards
Bill
The TLAH looks to me like a line array.
Can you say what features of transmission lines and horn-loaded enclosures that it incorporates?
What range is it typically flat over? Do you have FR graphs of all the designs, eg TLAH and DR250a?
Thanks
The TLAH looks to me like a line array.
Can you say what features of transmission lines and horn-loaded enclosures that it incorporates?
What range is it typically flat over? Do you have FR graphs of all the designs, eg TLAH and DR250a?
Thanks
How would this driver go in a Karlson?
The Eminence Electro-Voice Delta Pro-12A, with:
Qts of 0.35
Fs 51 Hz
Xmax 3.2 mm
Inductance 0.84mH
Vas 82 litres
Voice Coil 2.5 inches
Sensitivity 95 dB
Thanks
The Eminence Electro-Voice Delta Pro-12A, with:
Qts of 0.35
Fs 51 Hz
Xmax 3.2 mm
Inductance 0.84mH
Vas 82 litres
Voice Coil 2.5 inches
Sensitivity 95 dB
Thanks
Hi
IMHO a dipole/open baffle bass system works ok with horns,
I use 2 15" speakers per side in 122x140 cm baffles at the moment.
But you really need a lot of radiating area.
My two 15 inchers per side is really to little
to keep up with the horns when the music really gets going.
A big midbasshorn is much more dynamic sounding IMHO.
We all have to compromise, of course. It's an unfortunate fact of life.
How much room do you have, how far are you willing to go?
The problem with using horns down low is of course that they get very big.
A good quarter size bass horn per side from say 300Hz down to maybe 60Hz
should be managable , then you could use a mono sub for the really low stuff.
cheers 😉
IMHO a dipole/open baffle bass system works ok with horns,
I use 2 15" speakers per side in 122x140 cm baffles at the moment.
But you really need a lot of radiating area.
My two 15 inchers per side is really to little
to keep up with the horns when the music really gets going.
A big midbasshorn is much more dynamic sounding IMHO.
We all have to compromise, of course. It's an unfortunate fact of life.
How much room do you have, how far are you willing to go?
The problem with using horns down low is of course that they get very big.
A good quarter size bass horn per side from say 300Hz down to maybe 60Hz
should be managable , then you could use a mono sub for the really low stuff.
cheers 😉
There once was a dipole karlson (2 woofer format) that was posted here somewhere (I think on the systems thread but I couldn't find it). It was used in conjunction with a phy based dipole and a raven ribbon.
It visually looked something similar to this picture but with MUCH better asthetics and used 2 woofers:
http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/images/galleria/dipole.htm
It should give you a visual representation of how to fit 2 woofers (i.e. there is a flare top and bottom)
Also note that if you were to turn the tube 180 deg.s it would look the same.
Here is Magnetar's stuff (note the picture on the first page)
http://hometown.aol.com/BATESPM/bglows.html
Notice the other pages - these should give you an idea of where he has been.
As far as I know there is nothing special about a woofer used with a karlson - just the karlson coupler itself.
The format I've suggested is quite different than SL's requirements:
1. The eminence isn't going very low
2. The diameter is 15 inches
3. EQ isn't required because of dipole cancelation IF a decent baffle is used because the qts of the driver is high. (and even more eq. will occure if you use a high impeadance amp.)
Note:You can always check around guitar shops in your area and ask if any "amps" use this particular eminence.
It visually looked something similar to this picture but with MUCH better asthetics and used 2 woofers:
http://home.planet.nl/~ulfman/images/galleria/dipole.htm
It should give you a visual representation of how to fit 2 woofers (i.e. there is a flare top and bottom)
Also note that if you were to turn the tube 180 deg.s it would look the same.
Here is Magnetar's stuff (note the picture on the first page)
http://hometown.aol.com/BATESPM/bglows.html
Notice the other pages - these should give you an idea of where he has been.
As far as I know there is nothing special about a woofer used with a karlson - just the karlson coupler itself.
The format I've suggested is quite different than SL's requirements:
1. The eminence isn't going very low
2. The diameter is 15 inches
3. EQ isn't required because of dipole cancelation IF a decent baffle is used because the qts of the driver is high. (and even more eq. will occure if you use a high impeadance amp.)
Note:You can always check around guitar shops in your area and ask if any "amps" use this particular eminence.
It is. Anechoic response is plus, minus 3 dB from 120 to 16kHz at 99dB average SPL; room loaded it goes to 80 Hz, where I cross them to a Tuba 18 horn loaded sub. DR250a is a pro-sound full range cab.
High output basshorn
An interesting project is developing for the pro market.
http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSpeakers/messages/137.html
It’ll be to see where Wayne Parham’s ends up, and possibly using some of his ideas, probably on a reduced scale. He has been a horn manufacturer for I believe quite a while; he knows his stuff.
The tradoff for powerful bass - these folded horn speakers are complex to build, as shown here . .
http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSpeakers/messages/140.html
An interesting project is developing for the pro market.
http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSpeakers/messages/137.html
It’ll be to see where Wayne Parham’s ends up, and possibly using some of his ideas, probably on a reduced scale. He has been a horn manufacturer for I believe quite a while; he knows his stuff.
The tradoff for powerful bass - these folded horn speakers are complex to build, as shown here . .
http://www.audioroundtable.com/ProSpeakers/messages/140.html
Hi Scott
I thought a “dipole” Karlson could be quite tricky, but the David Ortega ‘sonotube’ method looks in your link looks reasonably straightforward. Without formulas though, output & FR would be trial and error.
It’s in someways like a U frame dipole (which JK uses only up to 110 Hz), so would probably have a resonance based on the path length distance, and another one based on the length of the pipe.
Did you ever see an FR or description of the sound?
Magnetar has done some amazing stuff, shame he has no description (I think he did a couple of years ago) to make me drool even more.
The format you suggest is straightforward, and should work.
Though the Eminence Big Ben Qts is 0.94 – nice & high, Eminence don’t indicate distortion, how is it for distortion and smoothness?
While Sd is healthy as it’s 15 inch, for a dipole - Xmax is nil???
And while I guess the Big Ben Fs is about 40-50, the specs give no figure for it(?). I was also going to see (Fs/ Qts) if it could also be used for a midbasshorn.
How dynamic would you say dipole bass is compared to a midbasshorn??
Hi Bill
+/- to 16kHz - that’ extremely good!
Doing my project in ‘modules’, I’m just looking for 50 – 500 HZ here, below being sealed boxes, above a horn (in another thread).
Cheers
I thought a “dipole” Karlson could be quite tricky, but the David Ortega ‘sonotube’ method looks in your link looks reasonably straightforward. Without formulas though, output & FR would be trial and error.
It’s in someways like a U frame dipole (which JK uses only up to 110 Hz), so would probably have a resonance based on the path length distance, and another one based on the length of the pipe.
Did you ever see an FR or description of the sound?
Magnetar has done some amazing stuff, shame he has no description (I think he did a couple of years ago) to make me drool even more.
The format you suggest is straightforward, and should work.
Though the Eminence Big Ben Qts is 0.94 – nice & high, Eminence don’t indicate distortion, how is it for distortion and smoothness?
While Sd is healthy as it’s 15 inch, for a dipole - Xmax is nil???
And while I guess the Big Ben Fs is about 40-50, the specs give no figure for it(?). I was also going to see (Fs/ Qts) if it could also be used for a midbasshorn.
How dynamic would you say dipole bass is compared to a midbasshorn??
Hi Bill
+/- to 16kHz - that’ extremely good!
Doing my project in ‘modules’, I’m just looking for 50 – 500 HZ here, below being sealed boxes, above a horn (in another thread).
Cheers
I'd expect fs is around 70 Hz for the eminence - just figure that you'll get what they have in their graph + a smoother response if your H frame is a little larger than the U frame typically used in cabinets. Distortion at one watt shouldn't be bad, but beyond 8 watts I'd bet there would be considerably more than the norm (still, a full 8 watts in a loudspeaker system would leave this thing around 110 db). You have even more "lift" and extension if you use a high impeadance amp.
As for it being AS dynamic as a good horn.. NO. But there are always trade-offs to any design (again Magnetar would be able to explain this far better).
If your not AS concerned with stereo midbass or "transparency" then you can always go for a pair of eminence Kappa Pro 10's (per side) in a sealed box. (lots of punch, good sond, good eff., real easy to do right). Some of the older Klipsh Heresy's had a similar woofer in a sealed enclosure - if you get to hear one you'll know what I'm talking about.
As for it being AS dynamic as a good horn.. NO. But there are always trade-offs to any design (again Magnetar would be able to explain this far better).
If your not AS concerned with stereo midbass or "transparency" then you can always go for a pair of eminence Kappa Pro 10's (per side) in a sealed box. (lots of punch, good sond, good eff., real easy to do right). Some of the older Klipsh Heresy's had a similar woofer in a sealed enclosure - if you get to hear one you'll know what I'm talking about.
If dipoles as I supected - “as dynamic as a good horn.. NO” - I’ll go for a horn. I don’t want to build a folded horn (too hard), and the couple I’ve looked at (Labhorn & Wayne Parham’s wip) only go to about 150Hz.
(Kappa Pro 10s in a sealed box would be a good punchy alternative, but not being horn loaded probably higher distortion).
that basically leaves – buying a better 2nd hand folded horn, a 100 Hz non folded horn design or finding a horn builder. 100 Hz non folded may be best.
The Tractrix and Exponential/ Hyperbolic Contour Calculators at http://melhuish.org/audio/tractrixcalc.html seem to be missing. Is there a calculator somewhere else - how big would be a 100 Hz non folded horn?
Driver may be the Eminence 151311 ($80 at Madisound, www.madisound.com/proaudio.pdf). 15 inch, 2.5 inch vc. Fs/ Qts is 123 – is that a disadvantage?
What do people feel about the quarter wavelength approach – what is the catch?
(Kappa Pro 10s in a sealed box would be a good punchy alternative, but not being horn loaded probably higher distortion).
that basically leaves – buying a better 2nd hand folded horn, a 100 Hz non folded horn design or finding a horn builder. 100 Hz non folded may be best.
The Tractrix and Exponential/ Hyperbolic Contour Calculators at http://melhuish.org/audio/tractrixcalc.html seem to be missing. Is there a calculator somewhere else - how big would be a 100 Hz non folded horn?
Driver may be the Eminence 151311 ($80 at Madisound, www.madisound.com/proaudio.pdf). 15 inch, 2.5 inch vc. Fs/ Qts is 123 – is that a disadvantage?
What do people feel about the quarter wavelength approach – what is the catch?
Richard, read the Edgar articles on Erik's site first, before you start designing. He has a good spreadsheet too for designing flares.rick57 said:
http://www.volvotreter.de/
Hi Brett
I'll read the Edgar articles (though they're on midrange, and this thread was about c. 50-450 Hz). Yes driver and design need to compliment, I just started at the driver end, then intend to look at the horn shape.
I read a great interview with Edgar last year, but while I'm sure that Erik's Edgar articles will be good, I thought I'd get more of a range of ideas, and newer ideas on the forum. I already have two horn profile directions, one from a “horn knowing” friend, and midrange I’m likely to go with the conical horn.
Because of size, midbass is different. Are there any Danley, Edgar or Parnham Fitzmaurice articles on midbass ?
Cheers
I'll read the Edgar articles (though they're on midrange, and this thread was about c. 50-450 Hz). Yes driver and design need to compliment, I just started at the driver end, then intend to look at the horn shape.
I read a great interview with Edgar last year, but while I'm sure that Erik's Edgar articles will be good, I thought I'd get more of a range of ideas, and newer ideas on the forum. I already have two horn profile directions, one from a “horn knowing” friend, and midrange I’m likely to go with the conical horn.
Because of size, midbass is different. Are there any Danley, Edgar or Parnham Fitzmaurice articles on midbass ?
Cheers
tractrix or other bass calculators
Hi guys
When I try to run what's reputed to be the best horn calculator Hornresp (under Win XP), I get
“ . . Autoexec.NT The system file is not suitable for running DOS and Windows applications”. 🙁
Any suggestions?
(I wonder if it has more inputs and like eg Unibox, does an FR)?
Thanks
Hi guys
When I try to run what's reputed to be the best horn calculator Hornresp (under Win XP), I get
“ . . Autoexec.NT The system file is not suitable for running DOS and Windows applications”. 🙁
Any suggestions?
(I wonder if it has more inputs and like eg Unibox, does an FR)?
Thanks
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