Best 500Hz and down woofer for pairing with ESL?

[Bas Horneman]

Hi

I'm looking for suggestions for a 500Hz and down woofer that would lend itself for pairing with a homemade ESL.

Crossover will be active (Steve Bench Crossover on Gary Kaufman Circuit boards) (Maybe more info than you need ...but there you have it)

Earthquake inducing woofers are not the priority. Musicality and speed plus synergy with esl's are prio's.

My thinking was of woofers that are not at all known for gutwrenching bass but for neutrality Vifa P13WH 00-8.

ESL will be homebrew (Wire stator type) approx 100cm high 13cm wide powered by 4watt SE valve amp and woofer will be powered by Pioneer A-400 SS.

Budget : Around 100 Euro/Dollar per channel.

Woofers with cabinet plans are obviously preferred. (Proven designs as well) Can anyone point me to something like that?

TIA,
Bas

 

[7V]

I'm looking for suggestions for a 500Hz and down woofer that would lend itself for pairing with a homemade ESL.

Woofers with cabinet plans are obviously preferred. (Proven designs as well) Can anyone point me to something like that?

Well, the obvious way for you to go is with dipole subs a la Linkwitz.

The 'vanilla' version is probably outside your budget but if you can gel up on the theory I'm sure you could get something exceptional together.

Steve

 

[Bas Horneman]

Hi Steve,

Saw the speakers you built! Loverly!

Mmm..good suggestion of yours...dipole subwoofers!!! ESL's are dipoles....so why not the woofers as well!

Good thinking!

That Linkwitz site is one of the worst in the business! I can't make heads or tails of it! Or am I the only one????

Cheers,
Bas

 

[7V]

Saw the speakers you built! Loverly!

Thanks. Someone's written a really nice review that I've just posted on my site as well: Review. Kind of makes life worth living, doesn't it?

Mmm..good suggestion of yours...dipole subwoofers!!! ESL's are dipoles....so why not the woofers as well!

Well that's what I thought. In fact I would say that a dipole woofer is essential to get any kind of smooth transfer to your electrostatics at 500Hz.

Steve

 

[Ken L]

Linkwitz dipoles only go up to 150 Hz.

And that is in the H configuration.

I was looking at them last night.

Later

Ken L

 

[thylantyr]

This is the best woofer for low pass 500hz. It's a wide band driver
capable of much higher than 500hz while maintaining audiophile
sonics.

Excellent bass (10mm xmax), excellent midbass,
excellent midrange all in one package. I can't find
a woofer like this, and I've been looking for 2 years
now. I ordered eight Apollos.

http://www.lambdacoustics.com/drivers/TD15H.html

Faraday version is what you need for wideband
operation, not LE version.

Get em' before Nick decides to close his part time business
of building hand-made woofers.

If 15" is too big, I would use the 12" but no less.

If you expect to drive > 500 watts rms, then you should
consider Apollo version.

 

[Ken L]

Ahhh -

Thylanter can always be counted to go to extremes if you're talking speakers- particularly when it comes to bass -

Life goes on, things change but refreshingly some things can be counted on to never change, and one of those things is that for Thylanter speakers mean _extreme machine_ .

I sure would love to hear your system someday Thylanter, where do you live?

Later

Ken L

 

[thylantyr]

Extreme machines.

I can visualize two Lambda woofers in this box.

http://www.termpro.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=40;t=014209

This would make a nice system for when the
old lady invites friends over for a tea party.

Unveil the curtains..

roar!

/hehe


For extreme tweeters, this is the ticket for me.... eight of
these is the goal, four per channel, 109db sensitivity is
the target at 1 watt, flat down to 1.6khz.........

Makes you wonder why people buy Maggies with 87db
sensitivity ratings, 500w - 1000w just to get them to
sing.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/speaker/photo.html

P.S. California is ground zero for the madness.

 

[SY]

One big consideration is the shape of your ESLs; if they're line sources, you'll have a hellish time trying to get point-source woofers to match up. You'll need a woofer line source.

And I agree with Steve that you need to match dipoles to dipoles. I've got some terrific subwoofers that worked stunningly well in my point-source cones-in-a-box system, but stubbornly refuse to meld with my ESLs.

 

[7V]

One big consideration is the shape of your ESLs; if they're line sources, you'll have a hellish time trying to get point-source woofers to match up. You'll need a woofer line source.

I agree with Sy (is this a first, Sy?). So, we could be talking line source, dipole woofers that are well usable to beyond 500Hz. Bearing in mind the budget constraints, what about some of BAM's Parts Express buyout "NSB" 4" drivers or similar?

Steve

 

[SY]

is this a first, Sy?

Nope.

There's nothing wrong, and maybe a lot right, with the idea of using a line array of 4 inchers to cover all but the lowest two octaves, then hand over to a big dipole sub for the very bottom.

 

[kelticwizard]

Bas:

Is that 500 Hz all the way down to 30 Hz or so?

Or do you plan on crossing over to a subwoofer at 100 Hz or so?

You might want to consider crossing over to an enclosed subwoofer, thereby freeing the the magnetic woofer from large cone excursions, rendering the midbass and midrange much clearer and with much lower Intermoduolation Distortion.

 

[Bas Horneman]

Thanks for all the very usefull info so far!!

kelticwizard...down to 100hz is fine...can always use a subwoofer later....especially if that helps getting them to integrate with the esl...

I Would love to prove my local electronics shop owner wrong! He said you can never make get your conventional drivers to integrate well with your esl's

how about a line array of jordan drivers 😉 down to 100hz??

Cheers,
Bas

[Edit] By the way...my budget restraints have just gone out the window...would be willing to spend around 300$ per channel....

I'd better start saving...

 

[7V]

By the way...my budget restraints have just gone out the window...would be willing to spend around 300$ per channel....

I'd better start saving...

Good.

I must admit that I never really understand why so many DIYers put so much time, energy and skill into making speakers that are often every bit as well finished as commercial products and designed with more skill than many too, but then use the cheapest components, drivers, etc.

Come on guys. You make speakers that are the equivalent of commercial products costing several times more. Save before you skimp.

End of rant.

Now, in this case Bas, I think you've got a great project - electrostatics with dipole bass, mmmmm. I really look forward to hearing how these turn out. In fact, I would love to visit once they're completed.

One thing... the electrostatics will go down to 500Hz. What are the consequences of taking them to say 400Hz? Does the size increase or is there more? I think that the lower you can go the better (keep the crossover point as far down the mid-range as you can).

Steve

 

[Bas Horneman]

One thing... the electrostatics will go down to 500Hz. What are the consequences of taking them to say 400Hz? Does the size increase or is there more? I think that the lower you can go the better (keep the crossover point as far down the mid-range as you can).

Hallo Steve,

The electrostatics are being built by another diyaudio member :
Audiofanatic.

He has built quite a few esl's. And I believe recently heard just such an esl..and liked what he heard ...hence the 500hz limit.

He is building them as part of a deal we made. So I don't want to influence him now one way or the other. So the 500Hz is cast in stone. The big advantage of such a narrow esl is that it act's more like a point source that your average esl.

You are always welcome to visit once they are finished! Maybe Dhaen can bring his amps then! 🙂 Can you carry them John?

Cheers,
Bas

 

[sfdoddsy]

I'd also suggest dipoles, and agree that you should get the best drivers you can.

With the dipoles you will probably need multiples per side, depending on your ultimate volume needs.

I think the Seas L22 or even better the L26 would be a good choice.

You will need to EQ for the dipole roll-off.


Steve

 

[Bas Horneman]

Seas L22 or even better the L26

Mmm these are so new...dutch diy shops have not listed them yet..

Prices?

You will need to EQ for the dipole roll-off.

Do I really need that? Is that standard for dipoles?

Was hoping to just use a simple tube based active crossover ...

Cheers,
Bas

 

[sfdoddsy]

You can find details on the Seas website or at Madisound.

Dipoles roll off at 6dB per octave below a certain point which is related to the width of the baffle, so you need to boost them by the same amount.

This is why you need drivers with as much xmax as possible, and most likely multiple drivers.

The best source for info is www.linkwitzlab.com, although the information can be a little overwhelming.

This site has more basic info:

http://www.diysubwoofers.org/dipole/


Steve

 

[argo]

Hi

I'm looking for suggestions for a 500Hz and down woofer that would lend itself for pairing with a homemade ESL.

Crossover will be active (Steve Bench Crossover on Gary Kaufman Circuit boards) (Maybe more info than you need ...but there you have it)

Earthquake inducing woofers are not the priority. Musicality and speed plus synergy with esl's are prio's.

My thinking was of woofers that are not at all known for gutwrenching bass but for neutrality Vifa P13WH 00-8.

ESL will be homebrew (Wire stator type) approx 100cm high 13cm wide powered by 4watt SE valve amp and woofer will be powered by Pioneer A-400 SS.

Budget : Around 100 Euro/Dollar per channel.

Woofers with cabinet plans are obviously preferred. (Proven designs as well) Can anyone point me to something like that?

TIA,
Bas

My vote would go for Alcone AC 10 HE 10" - aluminium driver with usable freg. range from 35 -1000Hz, very "fast", accurate and can go reasonably low. Sealed (with apr. 4dB bass boost at 40Hz) is preferred to vented alignment IMO. Some German web pages should have other recommended tuning fregs. and alignments as well.
I use a pair of them as subs, crossed at 100Hz 2nd order (but for Xover at 500Hz you need at least 4th order) with my sats consisting Jordans and Esg2 ribbons and they seem to integrate very ell with the "speed" of the sats.
http://www.bkelec.com/Hi-Fi/Alcone%2010-he.htm


argo

 

[Bas Horneman]

Thanks for the suggestions....so far...

Don't be shy you all..keep them coming..

I'm thinking...dipoles sound like a great idea but need a lot more "extra's" like eq..

Using a couple of small ones....in a line array sounds like a great I dea as well...so this idea I would like to stick to......but I'm not entirely convinced about the dipole concept yet. How about just one little driver firing backwards...and say 4 forward...creating just a little bit of that "diffuse" or dipole effect? A hybrid dipole line array for a hybrid speaker..hell good design is all about compromise is it not?

Cheers,
Bas