B&C 8PS21 or Beyma 8BR40
I’m considering both of these drivers as midrange in a 3-way project, and was wondering if anyone had any experience with either one of them.
B&C 8PS21
Beyma 8BR40
They will be crossed over at 150/2000hz with a ribbon on the top and the Eton 11-581 hitting the deep notes.
What I’m really looking for is a rock and roll midrange, something that can move air. And by reading other treads on the forum I have learned that pro-drivers are good at this.(?)
Please feel free to tell me about any other good driver, pro or not pro, that is over 7inches, can handle sealed enclosures, have good X-max and SPL over 90dB.
Thanks
I’m considering both of these drivers as midrange in a 3-way project, and was wondering if anyone had any experience with either one of them.
B&C 8PS21
Beyma 8BR40
They will be crossed over at 150/2000hz with a ribbon on the top and the Eton 11-581 hitting the deep notes.
What I’m really looking for is a rock and roll midrange, something that can move air. And by reading other treads on the forum I have learned that pro-drivers are good at this.(?)
Please feel free to tell me about any other good driver, pro or not pro, that is over 7inches, can handle sealed enclosures, have good X-max and SPL over 90dB.
Thanks
active or not? If so (and with a high order slope), you might be OK.. remember you'll likely have baffle step compensation and limitations in low frew. response from the ribbon (depending on the type). All of which can be "worked-around" with an active setup.
Of the 2 - def. the B&C.. the studio Beyma is constructed more like a typical hi-fi driver.
Of the 2 - def. the B&C.. the studio Beyma is constructed more like a typical hi-fi driver.
Active or not I haven’t really decided. I was hoping it would be OK to use a passive crossover as I (at the moment) only have one 2-channel amp. The tweeter is likely to be a fountek neocd 2.0 or similar.
This 8" Beyma is from their low end range and is rather a bass-mid driver.
You'd be happier with the 8Mi100 or with a PRO170 from Audax, which I saw on madisound lately...
Edit : the 8M60 is a dedicated midrange driver too
You'd be happier with the 8Mi100 or with a PRO170 from Audax, which I saw on madisound lately...
Edit : the 8M60 is a dedicated midrange driver too
I have used a similar model: the beyma 8lw30 with very good results. In my opinion those woofer are better suited as a midwoofer than as midrange. They have the first breakup mode between 1800 and 3000 Hz. The lw30 sound is very good up to 1400-1600 Hz, looking at the distortion graph perhaps better than the 8 br 40 but if you need a true midrange a good 6/7" like the phl 1120, b&c 6 md 38, beyma 6 mi 100, audax pr17 is better.
If you don't need high sensibility (and dynamics) a good mate for the eton 11-581 is the accuton c79.
If you don't need high sensibility (and dynamics) a good mate for the eton 11-581 is the accuton c79.
First of all thanks for the replies
I guess what I really need is a mid-woofer/mid-bass to act as the midrange/ mid-driver. I remind you that it will be crossed quite low(150/2000hz) and wont need to be good in the upper midrange area. I like the idea of a rather large midrange, it seems right when it's playing down to 150hz and when the goal is to get a dynamic and engaging speaker that sounds great with rock and roll.
I have considered the eton 7-372. It seems good except its only 88dB. The seas W21EX001 is very good and used with the eton 11-581 and a HI-VI ribbon in the Ascendo speakers, but it is out of production and expensive. Any other thoughts on these drivers?
I guess what I really need is a mid-woofer/mid-bass to act as the midrange/ mid-driver. I remind you that it will be crossed quite low(150/2000hz) and wont need to be good in the upper midrange area. I like the idea of a rather large midrange, it seems right when it's playing down to 150hz and when the goal is to get a dynamic and engaging speaker that sounds great with rock and roll.
I’m aware that accuton is perfect with eton, but the C79 does not look like a rock and roll driver. I would rather go with a larger woofer like the C95-T6 or the C²90(if I could afford it). But accuton and rock music? Im not convinced.
I have considered the eton 7-372. It seems good except its only 88dB. The seas W21EX001 is very good and used with the eton 11-581 and a HI-VI ribbon in the Ascendo speakers, but it is out of production and expensive. Any other thoughts on these drivers?
ScottG is right. Your crossover will be a difficult task in any case, for its both points.
I’ve worked with a somewhat older beyma (8B-40), it was ‘ok’.
These are different drivers, the beyma is a bass-mid of ca 89dB/2,83 which also needs some volume (you shouldn’t enclose it in 5 or 10 litter volume even if you cross it at 200Hz), the B&C is mostly a mid driver (but can be easily crossed in the region you specified) of much higher sensitivity and is a better overall driver but you will struggle more to get rid of its cone-breakup (in the crossover region exactly, somewhat big). The beyma looks crossover-friendlier and easier to end up with a good speaker, the B&C would be a more dangerous bet, but I would go with it, if I hadn’t some PHL1220 in my closet ;-)
Regards,
Thalis
I’ve worked with a somewhat older beyma (8B-40), it was ‘ok’.
These are different drivers, the beyma is a bass-mid of ca 89dB/2,83 which also needs some volume (you shouldn’t enclose it in 5 or 10 litter volume even if you cross it at 200Hz), the B&C is mostly a mid driver (but can be easily crossed in the region you specified) of much higher sensitivity and is a better overall driver but you will struggle more to get rid of its cone-breakup (in the crossover region exactly, somewhat big). The beyma looks crossover-friendlier and easier to end up with a good speaker, the B&C would be a more dangerous bet, but I would go with it, if I hadn’t some PHL1220 in my closet ;-)
Regards,
Thalis
Ok I understand.
In this case the beyma or b%c are a better choice but you can consider also a phl.
If I would build that kind of speaker (I did) I'll use an audax pr17z0 with a 12" or 15" woofer like a 15" eminence magnum pro/omega pro, 12" kappa pro, b&c 12/15" tbx100. This can give you a chest pounding bass plus a lively and "fast" midrange.
The ribbon tweeter in my opinion is too polite (have you heard the ascendo?) and also don't have such a nice measures: see http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/
better suited is the scan speak D2904/710000 (expensive) the morel supreme, the focal 120 (a bit harsh??) or the low priced vifa H26TG35 used (with the audax pr 17z0) in the well known Von Schweikert db99 (not the best tweeter overall).
For your need I think is better to use a big pro woofer crossovered a bit higher (around 250-400 Hz) to gain more power and punch instead to have a midwoofer crossovered lower with a subwoofer driver (like the peerless xls). In this case you obtain a cleaner midbass (no crossover in this region) but compared to the other option an uninvolving sound. If the crossover is well built you can't imagine how good can be the sound of this loudspeaker.
Franco
In this case the beyma or b%c are a better choice but you can consider also a phl.
If I would build that kind of speaker (I did) I'll use an audax pr17z0 with a 12" or 15" woofer like a 15" eminence magnum pro/omega pro, 12" kappa pro, b&c 12/15" tbx100. This can give you a chest pounding bass plus a lively and "fast" midrange.
The ribbon tweeter in my opinion is too polite (have you heard the ascendo?) and also don't have such a nice measures: see http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/
better suited is the scan speak D2904/710000 (expensive) the morel supreme, the focal 120 (a bit harsh??) or the low priced vifa H26TG35 used (with the audax pr 17z0) in the well known Von Schweikert db99 (not the best tweeter overall).
For your need I think is better to use a big pro woofer crossovered a bit higher (around 250-400 Hz) to gain more power and punch instead to have a midwoofer crossovered lower with a subwoofer driver (like the peerless xls). In this case you obtain a cleaner midbass (no crossover in this region) but compared to the other option an uninvolving sound. If the crossover is well built you can't imagine how good can be the sound of this loudspeaker.
Franco
A good measurement system can prove to be a invaluable work tool, but also a weapon of destruction. The same applies with almost every tool.
Ribbons do measure well, mostly better than domes. Even in these tests there, someone who can read values and understand what they mean would be pleased by what he sees (counting in a real-world usage of every unit, and the way these tests were performed).
Still, there is a problem. No one has proof that these specific tests alone and in the way they were performed correlate really well with the overall driver quality. If they correlate well, I have great news:
I discovered the Hi-Vi K1 tweeter, which costs 9 dollars. According to the figures presented there, it is (almost) second to none! Magnificent CSD, magnificent freq. response, very good distortion spectra. According to these tests, there is no reason for a Raven or a 100 and 200$ dome – at the most you will pay 2000% more for just a 1-2% improvement (and if).
Regards,
Thalis
Ribbons do measure well, mostly better than domes. Even in these tests there, someone who can read values and understand what they mean would be pleased by what he sees (counting in a real-world usage of every unit, and the way these tests were performed).
Still, there is a problem. No one has proof that these specific tests alone and in the way they were performed correlate really well with the overall driver quality. If they correlate well, I have great news:
I discovered the Hi-Vi K1 tweeter, which costs 9 dollars. According to the figures presented there, it is (almost) second to none! Magnificent CSD, magnificent freq. response, very good distortion spectra. According to these tests, there is no reason for a Raven or a 100 and 200$ dome – at the most you will pay 2000% more for just a 1-2% improvement (and if).
Regards,
Thalis
Once again thanks for the input.
First of all I have to say that I already bought the eton 11-581, got it at well under half price and couldn’t resist buying it.
So my main is object is finding a good midrange and tweeter to go with it, something that rocks but still matches the eton. I just thought the easiest way around this problem was to go with a big midrange and crossing it low. I have considered the use of two (or more) midranges, but have no real candidates in this category. Any thoughts?
No I have not heard the Ascendo only read reviews.
First of all I have to say that I already bought the eton 11-581, got it at well under half price and couldn’t resist buying it.
So my main is object is finding a good midrange and tweeter to go with it, something that rocks but still matches the eton. I just thought the easiest way around this problem was to go with a big midrange and crossing it low. I have considered the use of two (or more) midranges, but have no real candidates in this category. Any thoughts?
No I have not heard the Ascendo only read reviews.
thalis,
So did you listen to the Hi-Vi K1 and found its sound not to be worse than the measurements indicate?
Thanks
So did you listen to the Hi-Vi K1 and found its sound not to be worse than the measurements indicate?
Thanks
What I meant was that if these measurements are adequate, if there is a straight correlation between real driver quality and the test’s suggested interpretation (don’t forget that there is a moral, a conjecture in these pages), nothing more than a Hi-Vi K1 is needed for any project, and people (together with loudspeaker factories) shouldn’t waste their time to achieve something better. This is not true, off course. So, since we are in front of a paradox (inept) proposal, something is wrong either with the tests either with their suggested interpretation. Consequently, these pages shouldn’t be brought as examples for highlighting the ‘fact’ that ribbons, for instance, are not worth their money in an ‘objective’ manner. These tests are bad for deciding what a driver’s worth is, first because drivers are tested for what doesn’t seem to be their purpose, second because they don’t reveal their dynamic behavior. They are good for the engineer, in some ways, to perhaps select some possible candidates for a specific application, but not for the user who has to decide what is worth and what not, in general.
Regards,
Thalis
Regards,
Thalis
The K1 is not as perfect a driver as its published specs would lead the layman to believe. If it was it would be the only driver in history to have accomplished this feat. It can however be integrated in high-end designs as long as it's matched with compatible lower frequency drivers with the crossover carefully tailored to meet the sonic character of the resulting system. If you think that this applies to most tweeters in the $50-$120/unit price range then you are right because that's what the K1 is, minus the price tag, in North America at least. That tweeter is considerably more expensive in Europe.
It doesn't require a lot of imagination to figure that the K1's design is not the product of extensive research but rather the product of extensive cloning of existing European designs many of which aren't on the market anymore. The Chinese know that only giant corporations stand a chance of ever winning a patent infringement suit against a Chinese manufacturer, and they implement just the right amount of cosmetic differences and creative descriptions to make it difficult to prove that infringement actually occurs.
It doesn't require a lot of imagination to figure that the K1's design is not the product of extensive research but rather the product of extensive cloning of existing European designs many of which aren't on the market anymore. The Chinese know that only giant corporations stand a chance of ever winning a patent infringement suit against a Chinese manufacturer, and they implement just the right amount of cosmetic differences and creative descriptions to make it difficult to prove that infringement actually occurs.
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