Evening Everyone,
The Focal Audiom range of drivers are disappearing for the DIY market, however there are still some which are available and I need advice on whether to stress myself and pick up a pair of these very expensive drivers before I have considered every option on the planet ... (paralysis by analysis!)
BASS
Tony Gee's Andromeda (DIY)and Greg Osborn's Monument series (commercial) have inspired me to consider the 13WX as a bass driver. Are they worth their very high price? I note that they have a huge magnet assembly (230g*12) with a high BL (18.41), but a relatively high Mms (is that the "moving mass" described in the Vifa-Scanspeak-Peerless literature?) I do want a nice deep but well controlled bass. (They have a llightly low efficiency in comparison with the hugely efficient Audiom midranges though.)
MIDRANGE
Also the other consideration is the mid-range. I have not that enthralling remarks on this board about the 6WM Audiom.
I have heard better things about the older Kevlar 7 Audiom (now sold as the 7K6411) (It has a 1kg magnet!!!)
Considering both bass and midrange:
1. Are there other "better" bass drivers which are a lot cheaper?
2. How do they stand in sound quality stakes if one ignores their price?
3. Would a parallelled pair of some of the Scanspeak-SEAS-Vifa-Peerless group perform better than a single Audiom 13WX and have better efficiency?
4. Are impregnated cloth surrounds a problem?
All thoughts gratefully received and thoroughly digested.
Regards,
George.
Planned system:
3-way system - Audiom 13WX bass, Audiom 7k6411 (or another top end Scandinavian driver ... suggestions welcome), tweeter not chosen ?Raven ?Scanspeak 2904/710000.
Amps:
Bride Of Son of Zen Pre-amp
Tweeter: Nelson Pass Aleph Mini or Zen
Midrange: Nelson Pass Aleph 3 or 30
Bass: Any old workhorse ... my old 100W Denon or a MOSFET 300W kit, perhaps from ESP audio.
Planning to have "fun" with the midrange and tweeter enclosures ... cloning the midrange sphere/tube of the B&W Nautilus in MDF or concrete, keeping the baffles to a minimum or nothing.
Crossover:
Jens Active Filter One or Two possibly with discrete component opamps.
Sound I like:
Hmmm .... B&W802 Nautilus with Macintosh or Electrocompaniet amps. Very dry but very "present". There are I am sure more "musical" speakers around which I could enjoy. Is that where the difference between the current Audiom 6WM and the old 7K exists? (I have always liked the B&W Kevlar midrange even in the baby 601 and 602's.) Unfortunately my hifi shopping is extremely limited because of my geographical location so I cannot describe any other "high end" preferences.
The Focal Audiom range of drivers are disappearing for the DIY market, however there are still some which are available and I need advice on whether to stress myself and pick up a pair of these very expensive drivers before I have considered every option on the planet ... (paralysis by analysis!)
BASS
Tony Gee's Andromeda (DIY)and Greg Osborn's Monument series (commercial) have inspired me to consider the 13WX as a bass driver. Are they worth their very high price? I note that they have a huge magnet assembly (230g*12) with a high BL (18.41), but a relatively high Mms (is that the "moving mass" described in the Vifa-Scanspeak-Peerless literature?) I do want a nice deep but well controlled bass. (They have a llightly low efficiency in comparison with the hugely efficient Audiom midranges though.)
MIDRANGE
Also the other consideration is the mid-range. I have not that enthralling remarks on this board about the 6WM Audiom.
I have heard better things about the older Kevlar 7 Audiom (now sold as the 7K6411) (It has a 1kg magnet!!!)
Considering both bass and midrange:
1. Are there other "better" bass drivers which are a lot cheaper?
2. How do they stand in sound quality stakes if one ignores their price?
3. Would a parallelled pair of some of the Scanspeak-SEAS-Vifa-Peerless group perform better than a single Audiom 13WX and have better efficiency?
4. Are impregnated cloth surrounds a problem?
All thoughts gratefully received and thoroughly digested.
Regards,
George.
Planned system:
3-way system - Audiom 13WX bass, Audiom 7k6411 (or another top end Scandinavian driver ... suggestions welcome), tweeter not chosen ?Raven ?Scanspeak 2904/710000.
Amps:
Bride Of Son of Zen Pre-amp
Tweeter: Nelson Pass Aleph Mini or Zen
Midrange: Nelson Pass Aleph 3 or 30
Bass: Any old workhorse ... my old 100W Denon or a MOSFET 300W kit, perhaps from ESP audio.
Planning to have "fun" with the midrange and tweeter enclosures ... cloning the midrange sphere/tube of the B&W Nautilus in MDF or concrete, keeping the baffles to a minimum or nothing.
Crossover:
Jens Active Filter One or Two possibly with discrete component opamps.
Sound I like:
Hmmm .... B&W802 Nautilus with Macintosh or Electrocompaniet amps. Very dry but very "present". There are I am sure more "musical" speakers around which I could enjoy. Is that where the difference between the current Audiom 6WM and the old 7K exists? (I have always liked the B&W Kevlar midrange even in the baby 601 and 602's.) Unfortunately my hifi shopping is extremely limited because of my geographical location so I cannot describe any other "high end" preferences.
Hello George,
I have been able to compare the Focal Audiom 13KX woofer directly with the standard line (11V7511, 11K7511 and 11K7512). The Audiom woofer has a certain authority and slamm that the standard line lack (in comparison). This may partly also be due to comparing 11" woofers with a 13".
As for the midranges, I haven't used them myself but only heard them in other systems. The kevlar drivers tend to be a little too "hard" or "clynical" for my taste except for the neoflex Audiom 7A2.
As an alternative for the midrange I can advise something from PHL. More flexible to use are the mid-woofers like the 1230 / 1240 or if you are looking for midrange only then the 1130 could be a possibility. Personally I prefer the 16 ohm drivers over the 8 ohm drivers for being slightly more dynamic with a little more "bite".
Large PHL woofers I have yet to try.
I have been able to compare the Focal Audiom 13KX woofer directly with the standard line (11V7511, 11K7511 and 11K7512). The Audiom woofer has a certain authority and slamm that the standard line lack (in comparison). This may partly also be due to comparing 11" woofers with a 13".
As for the midranges, I haven't used them myself but only heard them in other systems. The kevlar drivers tend to be a little too "hard" or "clynical" for my taste except for the neoflex Audiom 7A2.
As an alternative for the midrange I can advise something from PHL. More flexible to use are the mid-woofers like the 1230 / 1240 or if you are looking for midrange only then the 1130 could be a possibility. Personally I prefer the 16 ohm drivers over the 8 ohm drivers for being slightly more dynamic with a little more "bite".
Large PHL woofers I have yet to try.
My inspiration!!
Dear Tony,
Thank-you for your response.
Do you think that the PHL as a mid-range would serve better with the Audiom 13WX than the Scanspeak you used in the Andromeda?
Which of the PHL's would you mate with the Audiom 13?
(Do you have a current "favourite" tweeter? Were you happy with the Audiom, now that you have sold the Andromedas and "moved on"? By the way, the Andromeda was the inspiration for my current project, especially the use of Audiom Speakers.)
Dear Others with experience,
Are there any other thoughts from you in this area? Is there better value and sound to be had from other woofer/midrange combinations?
With thanks,
George
Dear Tony,
Thank-you for your response.
Do you think that the PHL as a mid-range would serve better with the Audiom 13WX than the Scanspeak you used in the Andromeda?
Which of the PHL's would you mate with the Audiom 13?
(Do you have a current "favourite" tweeter? Were you happy with the Audiom, now that you have sold the Andromedas and "moved on"? By the way, the Andromeda was the inspiration for my current project, especially the use of Audiom Speakers.)
Dear Others with experience,
Are there any other thoughts from you in this area? Is there better value and sound to be had from other woofer/midrange combinations?
With thanks,
George
Re: My inspiration!!
The Andromeda was designed as a 2.5-way system around the Scanspeak 18W8545. Using a PHL for the mids should work as well but with a different sonic signature. I like the Scanspeaks overall response, the PHL's I prefer in the upper-midrange. I don't know how a 13WX would "sound" if used up into the 400Hz range like in the Andromeda, so to be safe I would use a PHL 1230 or 1240 in a 2.5-way set-up. My current "favourite" tweeter is the Scanspeak R2904-7000. Over-priced but it does sound nice! The Audiom 13KX was the best woofer I have used so far - you can't beat lots of cone area with strong motors.GeorgeBoles said:
Davis Acoustics alternative?
I have asked myself the same question with regards the midrange is the Focal 7k6411 the ants pants?
Whilst researching I have come across the Davis Acoustics 16GKLV6M available from PE, which might be an altenrative, unfortuantley due to the relative young age of there arent many opinions on them. Maybe it might be a good alternative considering price/availability.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-568&ctab=2#Tabs
I have asked myself the same question with regards the midrange is the Focal 7k6411 the ants pants?
Whilst researching I have come across the Davis Acoustics 16GKLV6M available from PE, which might be an altenrative, unfortuantley due to the relative young age of there arent many opinions on them. Maybe it might be a good alternative considering price/availability.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=297-568&ctab=2#Tabs
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
GeorgeBoles;
Not to put a dampener on your enthusiam, but are you able to get these drivers at discount pricing? If not I personally wouldn't stress and buy all these very expensive drivers. What makes the Focals so unique to deserve their very high price tag? I suspect their high price made them outside the reach of most DIYers, and with continuing poor demand, a collapse in their DIY market.
OTOH, IMHO Seas Excel and Scan-Speak are among the best drivers available regardless of price ('testimonials', measured performance, and subjective listening test), and unlike Focal, are well-represented with fair pricing here in Aus. Sometimes the pricing is even better in Australia (eg. the notoriously expensive SS R2904-7000 is a full USD$100 cheaper when compared to prices from US distributors).
A good 13" or 15" woofer is tempting, but some recent releases have shown good progess in equal sized or smaller drivers. (see Peerless XLS 12", TC Sounds TC2+) Now I haven't modelled the 26W/8861T, but if the recent ScanSpeak 15W and 18W Revelators are anything to go by (ie. go so low and have such articulate bass than many people do not feel they require a subwoofer for music) the new 10" 26W/8861T should be a incredible (sub)woofer.
As for midrange, you have plenty of excellent choices with 5" (W15CH001), 6.5/7" (SS 18W/8545, Excel W18EX001), 8" (21W/8554, W22EX001).
If you decide to go ahead and spending all this money on expensive drivers, it's not going to sound anywhere near it's best without a proper crossover design... the drivers won't play any where near flat, and your straightforward textbook passive filter or active crossover won't help.
Go with ready-made designs like Tony's Andromeda or be prepared to spend serious money on measurement equipment, crossover design and simulation software or you'll be tweaking forever and ever...
Not to put a dampener on your enthusiam, but are you able to get these drivers at discount pricing? If not I personally wouldn't stress and buy all these very expensive drivers. What makes the Focals so unique to deserve their very high price tag? I suspect their high price made them outside the reach of most DIYers, and with continuing poor demand, a collapse in their DIY market.
OTOH, IMHO Seas Excel and Scan-Speak are among the best drivers available regardless of price ('testimonials', measured performance, and subjective listening test), and unlike Focal, are well-represented with fair pricing here in Aus. Sometimes the pricing is even better in Australia (eg. the notoriously expensive SS R2904-7000 is a full USD$100 cheaper when compared to prices from US distributors).
A good 13" or 15" woofer is tempting, but some recent releases have shown good progess in equal sized or smaller drivers. (see Peerless XLS 12", TC Sounds TC2+) Now I haven't modelled the 26W/8861T, but if the recent ScanSpeak 15W and 18W Revelators are anything to go by (ie. go so low and have such articulate bass than many people do not feel they require a subwoofer for music) the new 10" 26W/8861T should be a incredible (sub)woofer.
As for midrange, you have plenty of excellent choices with 5" (W15CH001), 6.5/7" (SS 18W/8545, Excel W18EX001), 8" (21W/8554, W22EX001).
If you decide to go ahead and spending all this money on expensive drivers, it's not going to sound anywhere near it's best without a proper crossover design... the drivers won't play any where near flat, and your straightforward textbook passive filter or active crossover won't help.
Go with ready-made designs like Tony's Andromeda or be prepared to spend serious money on measurement equipment, crossover design and simulation software or you'll be tweaking forever and ever...
Measurement Programs
Dear Tktran,
I have come across this "final" obstacle before but tried to avoid it.
What would you regard as the bare minimum required for measurement and crossover software?
I have downloaded a couple of freebies of late (measurement programs look not too bad), but I cannot recall their names.
What can I expect from a "crossover design" program?
a. Should a good one measure frequency response and then recommend corrections to take out blips and blobs?
b. Should it have design features to help put in notch or peak filters?
c. Should it tell me about phase inaccuracy in the speaker from its measurements?
I had thought, perhaps incorrectly, that with a measurement program which will allow me to IDENTIFY the blips and blobs in the frequency response, I could then modify either the crossover response or else pop in an op-amp based filter to make significant corrections using simple formulae or spreadsheets available. (I am planning on using bi/tri-amping, which I though was "easier". I planned to use an uncalibrated electret microphone with a simple opamp mic amplifier for the measurement (somewhat akin to the clone of the Clio mike someone made out of a Panasonic mike electret capsule... although that particular electret is now discontinued.) Waraudio also sells Bodzio's SoundEasy, which is, as you suggest, worth a significant amount of money ($350 AUD)
The drivers were also coming from WarAudio (over in your home town), but were not a bargain really. However the feedback and information from Pat O'Brien is very valuable and enjoyable in comparison with the total lack of interest or assistance I received from the distributors of Danish Sound Technology gear over here... they could barely get themselves to find me prices if I weren't buying bulk. But, I know, that shouldn't put me off dealing with them if a significant project is under way!
As for the Focal drivers ... I think that the ones which I am most seriously considering are the 13 WX woofers. As Tony said above, they have/should have wonderful authority with their huge magnets. However, if the "moving mass" of the drivers is so large as compared to other similar drivers, then I am probably not doing myself such a great favour. Perhaps the other advantage of their magnet arrangement would be voice coil cooling ... but I just don't know. And hence my original post, and hence your very well thought out response.
With best regards and many thanks,
George.
Dear Tktran,
I have come across this "final" obstacle before but tried to avoid it.
What would you regard as the bare minimum required for measurement and crossover software?
I have downloaded a couple of freebies of late (measurement programs look not too bad), but I cannot recall their names.
What can I expect from a "crossover design" program?
a. Should a good one measure frequency response and then recommend corrections to take out blips and blobs?
b. Should it have design features to help put in notch or peak filters?
c. Should it tell me about phase inaccuracy in the speaker from its measurements?
I had thought, perhaps incorrectly, that with a measurement program which will allow me to IDENTIFY the blips and blobs in the frequency response, I could then modify either the crossover response or else pop in an op-amp based filter to make significant corrections using simple formulae or spreadsheets available. (I am planning on using bi/tri-amping, which I though was "easier". I planned to use an uncalibrated electret microphone with a simple opamp mic amplifier for the measurement (somewhat akin to the clone of the Clio mike someone made out of a Panasonic mike electret capsule... although that particular electret is now discontinued.) Waraudio also sells Bodzio's SoundEasy, which is, as you suggest, worth a significant amount of money ($350 AUD)
The drivers were also coming from WarAudio (over in your home town), but were not a bargain really. However the feedback and information from Pat O'Brien is very valuable and enjoyable in comparison with the total lack of interest or assistance I received from the distributors of Danish Sound Technology gear over here... they could barely get themselves to find me prices if I weren't buying bulk. But, I know, that shouldn't put me off dealing with them if a significant project is under way!
As for the Focal drivers ... I think that the ones which I am most seriously considering are the 13 WX woofers. As Tony said above, they have/should have wonderful authority with their huge magnets. However, if the "moving mass" of the drivers is so large as compared to other similar drivers, then I am probably not doing myself such a great favour. Perhaps the other advantage of their magnet arrangement would be voice coil cooling ... but I just don't know. And hence my original post, and hence your very well thought out response.
With best regards and many thanks,
George.
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
Dear George,
SpeakerWorkshop is free, and includes some details on how to build your own measurement jig etc.
Going with commercial software SoundEasy is a fully featured and powerful program. Depending on your electronics/computing background it's learning curve has been described anywhere from 'just plain confusing' to 'not that steep'.
OTOH, lspCAD has a better interface which makes things slightly easier, and costs about the same ($AU340) for the standard version or AU$990 for the Pro version, which incidentally, is more on on par with SoundEasy in terms of features.
Regardless, when designing your own speakers from the ground up I think you should be prepared to invest a significant time into learning, and making mistakes (=learning).
These two fully featured crossover programs do everything that you mentioned + much more.
There's a bit thread over at Madisound about SoundEasy VS lspCAD that you may be interested in:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi?read=315153
Pat/Warco is very knowledgeable and interested in DIY audio in general. He may be able to provide help, but there are tutorials for both SoundEasy and lspCAD to help you along the way, as well as very experienced crossover DIYers at Madisound.
As I understand it, generally speaking, a high moving mass (Mms) reduces the resonant frequency (fs) which, would normally increase Qts but reduce sensitivity, but by having a higher BL (18.41) maintains the lower Qts and improves sensitivity. Is the 13WX' Mms about 108g?
Given the BL/Mms ("acceleration factor") is about 170 that seems good to me... On all accounts it's an excellent woofer, with equally magnificant pricing. (USD~689?)
To put things in perspective the 12" XLS (AUD $308 (Retail)) also has relatively high BL (17.6) and combined with high Mms (166g). Generally recommended on the basis of very good for moderate cost.
As they say, the proof in the pudding is in the eating. I tend to sway on the safe side, and as a novice DIYer on a limited disposable income, prefer good listening to good DIYing ("but what's the fun/learning in that?", some may ask), so I would like a backup plan (Tony's Andromeda) before purchasing very expensive drivers.
regards,
Thanh.
SpeakerWorkshop is free, and includes some details on how to build your own measurement jig etc.
Going with commercial software SoundEasy is a fully featured and powerful program. Depending on your electronics/computing background it's learning curve has been described anywhere from 'just plain confusing' to 'not that steep'.
OTOH, lspCAD has a better interface which makes things slightly easier, and costs about the same ($AU340) for the standard version or AU$990 for the Pro version, which incidentally, is more on on par with SoundEasy in terms of features.
Regardless, when designing your own speakers from the ground up I think you should be prepared to invest a significant time into learning, and making mistakes (=learning).
These two fully featured crossover programs do everything that you mentioned + much more.
There's a bit thread over at Madisound about SoundEasy VS lspCAD that you may be interested in:
http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi?read=315153
Pat/Warco is very knowledgeable and interested in DIY audio in general. He may be able to provide help, but there are tutorials for both SoundEasy and lspCAD to help you along the way, as well as very experienced crossover DIYers at Madisound.
As I understand it, generally speaking, a high moving mass (Mms) reduces the resonant frequency (fs) which, would normally increase Qts but reduce sensitivity, but by having a higher BL (18.41) maintains the lower Qts and improves sensitivity. Is the 13WX' Mms about 108g?
Given the BL/Mms ("acceleration factor") is about 170 that seems good to me... On all accounts it's an excellent woofer, with equally magnificant pricing. (USD~689?)
To put things in perspective the 12" XLS (AUD $308 (Retail)) also has relatively high BL (17.6) and combined with high Mms (166g). Generally recommended on the basis of very good for moderate cost.
As they say, the proof in the pudding is in the eating. I tend to sway on the safe side, and as a novice DIYer on a limited disposable income, prefer good listening to good DIYing ("but what's the fun/learning in that?", some may ask), so I would like a backup plan (Tony's Andromeda) before purchasing very expensive drivers.
regards,
Thanh.
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