Hi, all. This message is an attempt to gather information about a problem I've been having with the AudioDesk Systeme Gläss record cleaning machine, and to warn other owners of this problem. I have had this same problem with two machines (the latter being a warranty replacement for a completely different reason). I had thought this was a problem just with the one machine. But now it is happening with the replacement, so it appears to be a design problem.
The machine appears to be taking little 'bites' out of the lead-in grooves on some of the records I'm cleaning. I have a theory about what is happening, but the manufacturer has dismissed this theory out of hand, saying (among other things) that they have had no other reports of this problem. I am not surprised. It took me quite a long time even to realize that the records were being damaged. If you're also using one of these machines, I'd appreciate knowing if you are seeing something similar.
This happens only with 'thick' records, e.g., 180g pressings. The most immediate symptom is that there is a black (if it's black vinyl) build-up near the bottoms of the cleaning barrels. This can range from light to heavy, depending, and is worst when using a long (five beep) cleaning cycle. A second symptom is that the 'cleaned' record will be quite noisy, especially at the beginning of each side. Under a VERY bright light, you can see the damage (below). The record is noisy because what is being bitten out is being deposited into the grooves, and maybe even ground into them by the cleaning barrels.
I cannot see the 'bites' it under a normal overhead light, and even then you have to hold the record at the right angle to the light to see them. That's why it took me so long to realize what was happening. Sadly, by then, quite a lot of records had been damaged in this way. Fortunately, they can be cleaned again (manually, with Disc Doctor fluid or Mobile Fidelity Enzymatic cleaner), which will almost always take care of the problem. But I'm now reluctant to use the machine at all.
My theory is that this is being caused by contact with the capstans that rotate the record. There are little indents on the capstans, and the edges of these are quite sharp. (I suspect that filing these down a bit would solve the problem, though I'm not going to try that yet.) Presumably, these capstans are not meant to contact the record at all. But I suspect that, with thick records, they are contacting the record, and the sharp edges are causing the damage. The 'bites' are not deep, and cannot be felt, so it wouldn't take much. And there isn't that much room between the two capstans. If the record sat perfectly straight between them, it would indeed clear them. But many records do not sit that way: That I've been able to check.
I think the fact that the 'bites' are so close together is misleading. The record rotates many times during a cleaning cycle, so the 'bites' will overlap with each rotation and so, presumably, will be offset a bit each time.
Another piece of evidence is that the 'bites' are slightly angled, i.e., not exactly along a radius of the record. Moreover, they are angled differently on the two sides of the record. This is exactly what you would expect if my theory is correct: The capstans are slightly 'ahead' of the bottom of the record, so the sharp vertical edges are at a slight angle to the radius of the record.
I've also measured the distance from the O-rings to the top of the capstan, and it is very close to the distance from the edge of the record to the top of where the damage is.
So, anyway, again: Is anyone else seeing this?
The machine appears to be taking little 'bites' out of the lead-in grooves on some of the records I'm cleaning. I have a theory about what is happening, but the manufacturer has dismissed this theory out of hand, saying (among other things) that they have had no other reports of this problem. I am not surprised. It took me quite a long time even to realize that the records were being damaged. If you're also using one of these machines, I'd appreciate knowing if you are seeing something similar.
This happens only with 'thick' records, e.g., 180g pressings. The most immediate symptom is that there is a black (if it's black vinyl) build-up near the bottoms of the cleaning barrels. This can range from light to heavy, depending, and is worst when using a long (five beep) cleaning cycle. A second symptom is that the 'cleaned' record will be quite noisy, especially at the beginning of each side. Under a VERY bright light, you can see the damage (below). The record is noisy because what is being bitten out is being deposited into the grooves, and maybe even ground into them by the cleaning barrels.
I cannot see the 'bites' it under a normal overhead light, and even then you have to hold the record at the right angle to the light to see them. That's why it took me so long to realize what was happening. Sadly, by then, quite a lot of records had been damaged in this way. Fortunately, they can be cleaned again (manually, with Disc Doctor fluid or Mobile Fidelity Enzymatic cleaner), which will almost always take care of the problem. But I'm now reluctant to use the machine at all.
My theory is that this is being caused by contact with the capstans that rotate the record. There are little indents on the capstans, and the edges of these are quite sharp. (I suspect that filing these down a bit would solve the problem, though I'm not going to try that yet.) Presumably, these capstans are not meant to contact the record at all. But I suspect that, with thick records, they are contacting the record, and the sharp edges are causing the damage. The 'bites' are not deep, and cannot be felt, so it wouldn't take much. And there isn't that much room between the two capstans. If the record sat perfectly straight between them, it would indeed clear them. But many records do not sit that way: That I've been able to check.
I think the fact that the 'bites' are so close together is misleading. The record rotates many times during a cleaning cycle, so the 'bites' will overlap with each rotation and so, presumably, will be offset a bit each time.
Another piece of evidence is that the 'bites' are slightly angled, i.e., not exactly along a radius of the record. Moreover, they are angled differently on the two sides of the record. This is exactly what you would expect if my theory is correct: The capstans are slightly 'ahead' of the bottom of the record, so the sharp vertical edges are at a slight angle to the radius of the record.
I've also measured the distance from the O-rings to the top of the capstan, and it is very close to the distance from the edge of the record to the top of where the damage is.
So, anyway, again: Is anyone else seeing this?
I wonder why they have these notches to begin with ?
One would think the cleaning action alone would remove anything coming off what it has created
so not a very good design if it leads to deposited material
They should reimburse you for any damage to special thick versions of vinyl since they are not cheap
these days and it’s quite clear from your photos what’s happening
A Dremel tool with a sanding drum would clean up those rough edges but this should have been done
by the factory
One would think the cleaning action alone would remove anything coming off what it has created
so not a very good design if it leads to deposited material
They should reimburse you for any damage to special thick versions of vinyl since they are not cheap
these days and it’s quite clear from your photos what’s happening
A Dremel tool with a sanding drum would clean up those rough edges but this should have been done
by the factory
Even without notches there's metal-to-disc contact. They simply didn't design conservatively for every thickness of pressing...
I worry about the open bearings dropping grot onto the disc as well. Sealed bearings aren't exactly rare!
I worry about the open bearings dropping grot onto the disc as well. Sealed bearings aren't exactly rare!
Thanks for both comments. However, I've convinced myself that my 'theory' was wrong. (I thought I'd posted here again about this. Apparently not.) The capstans do not contact the vinyl, so the notches do not, either. When the record starts to spin, it drops between the two O-rings, which centers it, and there is plenty of room on either side.
Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that damage is not still occurring. It is. It's just happening for some other reason. I assume it must have something to do with the O-rings. The capstans are fixed in place and do not move (unlike the cleaning barrels). So, the thicker the record, the more tightly it will be held between them. Certainly, if there were any stray material that got onto the O-rings, it would then be ground against the record. That stray material could come from just about anywhere. Perhaps that is what is happening. I did see one person saying they'd found small metal shavings inside their machine, which could have come from the bearings, or some other metal part.
The other puzzle, though, is that this did not happen with the first two of these machines I had. It has only happened with the last two. (All of these were warranty replacements.)
Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that damage is not still occurring. It is. It's just happening for some other reason. I assume it must have something to do with the O-rings. The capstans are fixed in place and do not move (unlike the cleaning barrels). So, the thicker the record, the more tightly it will be held between them. Certainly, if there were any stray material that got onto the O-rings, it would then be ground against the record. That stray material could come from just about anywhere. Perhaps that is what is happening. I did see one person saying they'd found small metal shavings inside their machine, which could have come from the bearings, or some other metal part.
The other puzzle, though, is that this did not happen with the first two of these machines I had. It has only happened with the last two. (All of these were warranty replacements.)