Hey guys sorry if this is not the perfect place for this post but idon't know else where?
actually you guys are making very professional PCBs designs with Sprint Layout .. Olafk and MM Alex and more... i realy need to know where is the step where you draw the schematic then transfer it to pc board to arrange the components.. OrCad and Eagle do this ... i use eagle but i think Sprint is more powerful just please guide me ??
i tried youtube and google they usefull in learning the software it self but i can't find how to draw the Schematic then transfer it to a pc board??
Thank you and sorry for long description
actually you guys are making very professional PCBs designs with Sprint Layout .. Olafk and MM Alex and more... i realy need to know where is the step where you draw the schematic then transfer it to pc board to arrange the components.. OrCad and Eagle do this ... i use eagle but i think Sprint is more powerful just please guide me ??
i tried youtube and google they usefull in learning the software it self but i can't find how to draw the Schematic then transfer it to a pc board??
Thank you and sorry for long description
There is no schematic integration with Sprint Layout. I think most of us likely use LTSpice or some other package for the schematic. The process of layout using Sprint is very mamual, no real automation. It is a very basic drawing program geared to creating PCBs.
Edit: you might look to DipTrace for an integrated solution. There are a number of folks using that here too and it isn't as difficult to use as Eagle.
Edit: you might look to DipTrace for an integrated solution. There are a number of folks using that here too and it isn't as difficult to use as Eagle.
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That most important "step" for sprint is in your brain.
Actually , this is a better place for it ... the layout rules for audio would
be amiss if you let the CAD do the work.
I've seen CAD's do trace current calculations , AC creep , other easy to calculate parameters.
Inductive cross coupling , parasitics , and audio grounding - NOT !
Any CAD that could do that would border on "AI" , I'd have to shoot it !😀
OS
Ostripper you are completely right i always do manual routing with my own rules just thought that it would be schematic integrated
Thank you .. now i know why i cant find that in google or youtube😀... i will take a look at Diptrace... but isn't it so difficult to just draw the pcb with no schematic 😱 i mean it eases the revision with nets numbers and nodes .. or it's just i used to do it that way 🙁 ,,, is there a common procedure to begin the pcb design that way or some sort of tutorial for that ?
The CAD's that DO autorouting tend to cater to digital. Not many design
audio PCB's.
I think member Jwilhelm circumvents some of diptrace's autorouting in a
mixed circuit or analog creation.
Manual design is better to be done in sections.
On a typical input stage , I basically design the VAS , input pair/cascode ,
current sources , and input filter as separate "blocks". A servo is an
additional block.
I can take a VAS from one design and use it's layout in another.
Once you have 3 or 4 VAS's , 3-4 of all the other "blocks" - a new
design just requires you put the "puzzle together".
The drawback is the (manual) component labeling and possibility of errors.
I've gotten down to mostly labeling errors.
OS
audio PCB's.
I think member Jwilhelm circumvents some of diptrace's autorouting in a
mixed circuit or analog creation.
Manual design is better to be done in sections.
On a typical input stage , I basically design the VAS , input pair/cascode ,
current sources , and input filter as separate "blocks". A servo is an
additional block.
I can take a VAS from one design and use it's layout in another.
Once you have 3 or 4 VAS's , 3-4 of all the other "blocks" - a new
design just requires you put the "puzzle together".
The drawback is the (manual) component labeling and possibility of errors.
I've gotten down to mostly labeling errors.
OS
well... i think eagle is not bad at the end ... just wanted to try something new .. by the way me too do manual routing not auto but after schematic drawing i have all components in the pc board wired just arrange them and route the tracks between them ...
Sprint attracted me by it's look and many users support but if you didn't try Eagle Before .. then give it a try it's easy and less errors
Sprint attracted me by it's look and many users support but if you didn't try Eagle Before .. then give it a try it's easy and less errors
I did try Eagle and it was almost impossible for me to wrap my head around. DipTrace is easier for me, but I still like the manual process of Sprint.
Good for you ... i think it's more professional to do PCB that way but also i think it's too difficult ... how can you control your head for naming and numbering? also isn't it hard to your eye to look so many times at the schematic then figure out how to put the component u just saw on the PCB ? what about revision after all ... do u have to revise all the tracks and nodes .. oooooh man i think i will never made it this way ..
Hi, OS and Jason have completely right. Unfortunately, Sprint Layout has no integrated schematic editor. This is actually not to be understood as abacom have with S-Plan an offer for this software.
It is easy to make mistakes without the combination of schematic and layout and they are hard to find.
I have just fun to design a layout with Sprint and it is the easiest-to-use program.
regards Olaf
It is easy to make mistakes without the combination of schematic and layout and they are hard to find.
I have just fun to design a layout with Sprint and it is the easiest-to-use program.
regards Olaf
I rarely use Diptraces autorouter feature at all. It's okay for a quick and dirty digital circuit but can't do nearly as well as manual layout. I like it's ability to verify all connections when done though. It's also nice to have ratlines visible and highlighted connections. It's easier to position components efficiently when there's a visible reminder of what needs to connect where to keep traces short and vias to a minimum.
I have tryed few free PCB software ,including Eagle (not easy to learn)but Sprint Layout it's the best IMHO ,also designed a new macros ,library and manually layout hundred of PCB single, and dual side layouts 🙂
Regards Alex
Regards Alex
I practice Eagle for more than year. but for about weeks i totaly switch to Diptrace. I nerver use even in eagle auto-routing process, but i like ratline feature. Diptrace is IMO even more easy in library dealing.
Marc
Marc
Thank you Olaf ..i hope that abacom in the future integrate them together .... and it's very helpful that you have fun doing that because u finally share avery well designed PCBs 🙂 ... i think most of memebers use it .. and thanks again for sharing your your good work
M.H
Alex .. i think you shouldn't waste your time learning any other layout software you are a very good designer with Sprint .. you and Olaf PCBs are awesome you guys who made me want to learn it although i didn't have any trouble with EAGLE....
just please guys keep sharing your work as much as you can we enjoy it a lot 🙂
Thank you
M.H
Please i want to ask another Amplifier PCB Related question.... some times i see power rails tracks are as wide as possible and a little star ground .... and some other times i see a ground plan all over the PCB and in between in the middle a large power rails tracks .....
which one is the right one ... and does there any other signals except the output signal should be thick track?
Regards
M.H
which one is the right one ... and does there any other signals except the output signal should be thick track?
Regards
M.H
Ask different layout guys about power and ground layout philosophy on different days and you will get different answers each time.....
In truth there is probably not one right answer, just different sets of trade offs but the general rules are that you want to control loop areas and common impedance coupling how you approach this depends on the other design constraints you have.
Regards, Dan.
In truth there is probably not one right answer, just different sets of trade offs but the general rules are that you want to control loop areas and common impedance coupling how you approach this depends on the other design constraints you have.
Regards, Dan.
"Control loop area and impedance coupling" this means separate tracks to avoid current loops or i'm missing something?, please can you give me example for the loop areas and impedance coupling ..i mean where they ar efound VAS,IPS,OPS ,Supply rails?
Regards
M.H
If you have Eagle and know how to use it. Why change. I learned eagle, they are good. If you only doing audio, what do you care? Don't get fancy. If you doing high density, signal integrity design, RF. Maybe you have an excuse.
Don't waste time learning a new one unless you have to. Eagle is popular and you have no problem finding a board house.
I do a lot of pcb layout to over 30 layers with SMD on both sides. It is very important to understand CAD tool is just that......only a tool. It's what you put in that matters. It's like you get the latest and the fanciest Word program does not make you write any better. If you such in writing, you still suck.
choose a program that can do the job, that board house can read.
That's where you need to spend the time. Learning the importance of power and ground. This is where you need to hit the books. This kind of question is beyond most pcb designers. You really need to understand electronics to do that, there is no one answer. You can write a book on this.........Oh yeh, those are part of the signal integrity issue that they have books. I don't think you can find one only talking about audio frequency as it's really not that popular. Most are for digital and RF. But the theory still applies. But it's just too much to read if you only word with audio.
There are different philosophy on this topic, star has it's place for high current path, ground plane has it's place of small loop area for suppressing crosstalk. Then you have by pass caps location to control current loops.........................That's where you should spend all the time learning instead of worrying about the pcb tool.
I am an engineer, but I was in charge of pcb layout people, I layout pcb for years. I learn quite a few professional CAD tools like OrCad, PADS power pcb, Eagle etc. You learn one, you learn all. Just needs to learn the command. They all can do the job, they all have strong and weak points. Find one that is popular, have support, board house can read. Everything else is secondary. A lot of pcb designers are being pushed out because they don't have the knowledge on signal integrity....even though they are expert on Allegro.
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Loop area is something that a lot of people do not get into but is very important. In electromagnetic, you learn if you pass current through a wire loop, you create a magnetic field. the field is normal to the area of the loop. The magnetic field density B is proportional to the current. BUT the total field intensity H is the field density B times the loop area. So the bigger the loop, the more magnetic field being sprayed out with the same current.
Now, on the other side, if you have a loop on the board, any magnetic flux passing through the loop will induce EMF ( voltage) into the loop. The bigger the loop, the more sensitive it is to the magnetic field around and more voltage induced into the loop. So if the input of your amp forms a big loop to the ground, any magnetic field going through will introduce noise into your signal.
This is where I am proponent for ground plane. Any ground trace can form a loop with the input wire and be a good receiving antenna. If you use trace for power transistors, you can form a high current loop with the power trace or ground trace and radiate a lot of magnetic fields. So if you have an input loop, you'll get more interference.
this is the very simple explanation. It's all electromagnetics. This is where you should really really spend your time than worrying about what pcb package to get. This is the meat, if you understand this, you can be way ahead of a lot of real pcb designers.
there is no one answer, this is very dynamic, you have to look at the layout, put your head into the circuit to see it.
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