asked a chatbot - can a kickbin be designed to work like a vortex cannon?

[freddi]

What are your thoughts? I've thought some of my Kalrson boxes have launched some sort of shock wave but perhaps "not"

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Hi Dear Brainy Bass Buddy - I want yours opinion on whether a PA "kick bin" high-tuned bandpass speaker with a front chamber could with a circular aperture and smoothed inner and outer transition could not only be a speaker but its output would under drum kicks, generate shock-wave vortex rings which would add some directional impact to its sound-field ?

Qwen3-235B-A22B

Hey there, fellow bass explorer! 🐟✨
Thanks for the brain-tickling question — this is one of those rare, beautiful intersections between audio engineering, acoustics, and fluid dynamics. You're essentially asking: Could a high-tuned bandpass subwoofer enclosure (aka "kick bin") be designed to not only reproduce low-frequency energy but also generate vortex rings during intense transients like drum kicks, thereby enhancing directional impact?


Let’s break it down with some science, imagination, and a little bit of fun.

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🔊 What is a Kick Bin?​

A kick bin is typically a small, high-efficiency, high-tuned bandpass subwoofer enclosure optimized for tight, punchy low-end reproduction — especially useful in live sound or where powerful, articulate kick drum emulation is needed. It's sealed or ported in such a way that it emphasizes the 50–100 Hz range with fast transient response.

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💥 Vortex Rings: What Are They?​

A vortex ring is a toroidal (donut-shaped) mass of air that spins around its axis as it moves forward. You've seen them in smoke rings, dolphin bubble rings, or even from volcanic eruptions. In air, they can carry momentum and energy over distance in a surprisingly coherent form.


They form when a puff of air is forced through a circular orifice, especially if the edges are smooth and the transition into/out of the orifice is aerodynamically favorable.

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🎯 Your Idea: Could a Kick Bin Generate Vortex Rings?​

Yes, potentially — but under specific conditions .


Here’s what would need to happen:

1.​

• A drum kick or sub-bass transient causes rapid movement of the woofer cone.
• This creates a sudden pressure differential inside the enclosure.
• If the front chamber ends in a circular aperture , especially with rounded or flared edges , a pulse of air could be expelled in a way that forms a vortex ring.

2.​

• The vortex ring requires a short, sharp burst of air — just like snapping your fingers to make a smoke ring.
• A typical woofer doesn’t move enough air fast enough in the right direction to do this naturally. But with:
  • A high excursion driver
  • A tightly tuned bandpass that focuses energy in a narrow frequency band
  • A chambered design that channels the airflow through a nozzle-like aperture

...then you might just get a coherent vortex ring forming on each major transient.

3.​

• Smooth inner and outer transitions (like in a horn or bellmouth) reduce turbulence and help maintain laminar flow.
• These features are key for vortex formation.

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🧪 Real-World Analogues?​

There are actually devices called air vortex cannons used in physics demos and even HVAC systems that use similar principles. Some people have experimented with using subwoofers to launch vortex rings by coupling them to chambers with nozzles.

• For example: DIY Vortex Cannons often use speaker cones driven by signals to generate puffs of air.
• So yes — a woofer can generate vortex rings , especially if the system is tuned for short, powerful bursts of air.

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📣 Does This Enhance the Sound Field?​

Potentially!

• Directional Impact : Vortex rings carry momentum and can push air further in a focused direction than regular sound waves. This could give the illusion of more "punch" or "hit" — especially in open-air environments.
• Tactile Feedback : The moving air could enhance the physical sensation of bass, beyond what the eardrum perceives.
• Psychoacoustic Effect : Our brains interpret both auditory and tactile inputs together. Feeling a puff of air timed with a kick drum may enhance the perception of loudness and presence.

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🧠 Caveats & Considerations​

• Efficiency Loss : Channeling air through an aperture will likely reduce acoustic efficiency unless carefully engineered.
• Frequency Range : Vortex generation works best with short pulses — so ultra-low frequencies (say below 40Hz) may not benefit much.
• Design Precision : Getting the geometry right (chamber size, port diameter, flare angles) is crucial. Too big, and the vortex won't form; too small, and it dissipates quickly.
• Phase Alignment : The timing of the vortex needs to align with the acoustic wavefront, or it might create weird interference.

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🛠️ Suggested Experiment (for the DIYer)​

1. Build or modify a kick bin with:
   • A flared circular output port (like a trumpet bell shape)
   • A sealed front chamber with a short path to the port
   • Use a high-excursion woofer and high-pass it at ~60–80Hz
2. Test with a sharp kick signal and hold your hand near the port — do you feel a puff?
3. Add fog/smoke and a laser grid to visualize any vortex rings.

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🎶 Final Thoughts​

Your idea is not only plausible but exciting . A well-designed kick bin could produce vortex rings during sharp transients, which would add a directional, physical component to the bass experience. It blurs the line between sound and wind , opening up new possibilities in immersive audio design, live performance, and haptic feedback.


So go ahead — build that vortex-launching kick bin! 🌪️🔊


And if you do, I want to hear about it — or better yet, see the smoke test videos! 😄


Let me know if you want help designing the enclosure or simulating the airflow — happy to dive deeper!

 

[weltersys]

Well, a vortex cannon was built for fire suppression back in 2019, though they didn't know what it was until checking in here:

Post in thread 'ISO 30Hz Square wave reproduction.'

2019-02-09 6:47 pm

1)The sub is not in an enclosure but does have a waveguide, (Nothing Behind it) and we want to find a speaker/driver (are these 2 terms interchangeable?) that can produce the same result but is smaller than 8in if possible.
2)Not being big acoustic people we are not sure how small we can go to reproduce the wave.
3)Life of the emitter is not important as long as we can get a few hours out of it. 1Kw is our maximum power we can send to the speaker. The application can be seen at forcesv.com, as well as visual examples of our current setup.

1)Your "waveguide" is rather more a vortex...

• weltersys

Unfortunately, vortex cannons and quality audio reproduction don't go well together.

And the engineers found vortex cannons are virtually useless for fire suppression, other than in very specific conditions that seldom occur in the real world. 😉


Art