Hi,
we need a system for outdoor speeches and ralleys. Budget max 2000 Euros.
These are the targets:
First one is most important.
Current plan is the following:
A) Two good full range PA speakers, e.g. 500 Euros each
B) AGM battery, e.g. 120AH for 120 EUR
C) Efficient Car Hifi Amp - 500 EUR?
D) Mini mixer, cables, charger etc - 200 EUR
Now, the big question is:
Is this the best way forward?
Other options considered included:
- bying an off-the-shelf system (e.g. Foohn Audio, or dB Opera Mobile). We think that our current plan gives us more bang for the buck.
- building something along the lines of the boominator (self-build speakers with full-range chassis, tda-something amp boards, 12v gel batteries) - however, we fear that without extensive expierence (which we don't have) it will not deliver the level of voice quality and loudness we strive for
And, should we continue with our plan, the actual purpose of this post:
Do you have reccomendations for a A) full range PA boxes and B) a car hifi amp that can power these?
We're thinking of e.g.:
2 x Electrovoice ELX 115 (8 ohm, 400W RMS)
or
2 x HK Audio L5 112 X (8 ohm, 350W)
(these were recommended by someone we know when asking for speakers that deliver good voice rendition - we're open for other suggestions)
and then, for the amp:
Alpine PDX-F6
(2 x 300W, but at 4 Ohm only..)
Sonora Combo 2S300
(2 x 300W at 4 Ohm)
If we'd bridge the two speakers (mono would be OK) - would that work out?
Do you have other suggestions for high-power 12V amps that work on full range?
Most monoblocks seem to work only up to 400 Hz, are there full range monoblocks?
Best regards and thanks in advance,
obliquemaria
we need a system for outdoor speeches and ralleys. Budget max 2000 Euros.
These are the targets:
- Be able to have very good voice transmision (for speeches) to about 300 people outdoor
- Play background music in acceptable quality (no dancing loudness needed)
- Have the whole system transportable on a trolley. It doesn't have to be small and light, just transportable by attaching to a bicycle or pulling by hand.
- Have enough battery for 1-2 hours of mobile use
- Optionally, but desirable: A system that is expandable, e.g. by adding additional speakers and a generator for larger events.
First one is most important.
Current plan is the following:
A) Two good full range PA speakers, e.g. 500 Euros each
B) AGM battery, e.g. 120AH for 120 EUR
C) Efficient Car Hifi Amp - 500 EUR?
D) Mini mixer, cables, charger etc - 200 EUR
Now, the big question is:
Is this the best way forward?
Other options considered included:
- bying an off-the-shelf system (e.g. Foohn Audio, or dB Opera Mobile). We think that our current plan gives us more bang for the buck.
- building something along the lines of the boominator (self-build speakers with full-range chassis, tda-something amp boards, 12v gel batteries) - however, we fear that without extensive expierence (which we don't have) it will not deliver the level of voice quality and loudness we strive for
And, should we continue with our plan, the actual purpose of this post:
Do you have reccomendations for a A) full range PA boxes and B) a car hifi amp that can power these?
We're thinking of e.g.:
2 x Electrovoice ELX 115 (8 ohm, 400W RMS)
or
2 x HK Audio L5 112 X (8 ohm, 350W)
(these were recommended by someone we know when asking for speakers that deliver good voice rendition - we're open for other suggestions)
and then, for the amp:
Alpine PDX-F6
(2 x 300W, but at 4 Ohm only..)
Sonora Combo 2S300
(2 x 300W at 4 Ohm)
If we'd bridge the two speakers (mono would be OK) - would that work out?
Do you have other suggestions for high-power 12V amps that work on full range?
Most monoblocks seem to work only up to 400 Hz, are there full range monoblocks?
Best regards and thanks in advance,
obliquemaria
This is a "brute force" method using big battery and amp, it does the job but is fairly heavy...
I run a Pioneer GM-D9500f on a 60ah SLA and get 6 hours of "flat out" use, so you could maybe think about a smaller battery.
Small tips, get the speakers up high and try to use a small mixer in to the amp. There are some battery powered mixers out there, for your mic input.
I run a Pioneer GM-D9500f on a 60ah SLA and get 6 hours of "flat out" use, so you could maybe think about a smaller battery.
Small tips, get the speakers up high and try to use a small mixer in to the amp. There are some battery powered mixers out there, for your mic input.
Why not use active speakers?
JB Systems make some cheap but for this kind of applications decent speakers: https://jb-systems.eu/psa-15
The advantage is that you can use more speakers to have a better spread.
You mentioned battery powered - is that because you don't have mains power on that site? If so, maybe consider using a small diesel generator?
JB Systems make some cheap but for this kind of applications decent speakers: https://jb-systems.eu/psa-15
The advantage is that you can use more speakers to have a better spread.
You mentioned battery powered - is that because you don't have mains power on that site? If so, maybe consider using a small diesel generator?
A silenced Honda 2kW generator is the same weight and cost as a couple of decent batteries! All it needs is fuel.
That's the same ODM as McGee..
Aktiv-Lautsprecher McGee, 500 W - Unterhaltungselektronik - Lautsprecher - - Pollin Electronic
Thanks everyone.
We do already have a generator in reach for bigger events, but we do want a battery powered solutions for this, that's requirement no. 1.
As I said, weight is not too much of an issue, the whole thing will be installed on a trailer, so 60-80kg total should be OK (20kg battery, 20kg each speaker). Lighter is better, of course, but we don't want to trade in power for lightness.
Regarding active speakers: That would mean we need 120 or 220V, right? We were told that transforming up loses more power than the possibly more efficient amps in active speakers gain us, that's why we're thinking of going the car amp route.
Back to the original question: Any suggestions for
a) passive full-range PA speakers with great efficiency (spl) and great voice rendition for up to 1000 eur / pair?
b) a high power, efficient Class D 12V amp to power these speakers?
We do already have a generator in reach for bigger events, but we do want a battery powered solutions for this, that's requirement no. 1.
As I said, weight is not too much of an issue, the whole thing will be installed on a trailer, so 60-80kg total should be OK (20kg battery, 20kg each speaker). Lighter is better, of course, but we don't want to trade in power for lightness.
Regarding active speakers: That would mean we need 120 or 220V, right? We were told that transforming up loses more power than the possibly more efficient amps in active speakers gain us, that's why we're thinking of going the car amp route.
Back to the original question: Any suggestions for
a) passive full-range PA speakers with great efficiency (spl) and great voice rendition for up to 1000 eur / pair?
b) a high power, efficient Class D 12V amp to power these speakers?
Addendum: With "efficiency" for a) I mean SPL/W/m, that's more important I think - though a max SPL of 125-130db would be good, to be able to use the system for bigger events with a regular amp and generator or normal power (and possibly two subs which we could easily rent when needed).
If your goal is a maximum of 2 hours of use, you could use a bank of 18650 batteries for power. This should reduce your weight quite a bit. Also, you could have back-up batteries to replace in the field in case you run out of juice early.
A typical 18650 battery should be able to supply 1A for longer than two hours. The voltage will drop from a bit more than 4V down to 3.5V during the discharge, but most modern Class-D amp boards can handle that kind of voltage drop without any problem. Making your own 18650 based Li-ion batter pack takes some DIY work, but you can also buy a 24V 12Ah Li-ion battery pack for about $300. (They do sell some 24V 40A Li-Ion battery packs for $400 on eBay, but specifications are highly suspect).
A typical 18650 battery should be able to supply 1A for longer than two hours. The voltage will drop from a bit more than 4V down to 3.5V during the discharge, but most modern Class-D amp boards can handle that kind of voltage drop without any problem. Making your own 18650 based Li-ion batter pack takes some DIY work, but you can also buy a 24V 12Ah Li-ion battery pack for about $300. (They do sell some 24V 40A Li-Ion battery packs for $400 on eBay, but specifications are highly suspect).
On 8 Ohm (usual PA speakers) you get only ~half the power output. That means you would not use the potential of the amps or in other words: 3dB less output. And that's unfortunately the same for every car amp, they are often optimized for 4 Ohm or even 2 Ohm. You can get cheaper amps for the same power on 8 Ohm.
Well, if you want to stay at batteries, you could take 2 or 3 in series (or a truck battery) and use 24 or (3x12) 36V and use a class D amp or use a step up converter (DC-DC converter) with a 12V battery. A good amp for that use would be i.e. a TAS5630, they are not very expensive.
Yes, but no car-monoblocks.
Well, I'm not very fond of Li-Ion batteries, especally the 18650 cells, for this application. The cells don't supply enough current for the amps, parallel wiring of the cells will sooner or later overload one of the cells, which damages them. It's not the question of 'if', it's the question 'when'. Safety is an issue, damaged cells (heat, overcurrent, over-load, over-discharge, mechanical/physical force) will burn violently or even explode. Li-Ion batteries aren't very fond of the cold either, they lose a LOT of charge below 10°C (50°F) and the max current drops very quickly, temperatures below 0°C will even damage them. If it's only used in the summer, okay, that's no issue then.
Aside that, the ready made packs are very expensive and to carry around more of them defeats the purpose of reduced weight and volume. You need a special charger too. I don't find it very helpful for any kind of event if you have to change the batteries, it embarrasingly interrupts the event.
Your linked DIY project is interesting but doesn't help here at all, at 14,8V and a max current of 6A the highest possible power would be below 90W output (without any losses in the amp etc.). The idea is good and these DIY packs can be used in may ways but, as I already said, not in this case.
Do you have some recommendations here? I definitely don't want to solder the amp. A DIY board without case would be an option, but no PCB soldering. As we have the budget but not the time, we'd prefer to buy something complete.
Going with 36V would be possible, though 12V would be preferred (due to simpler handling - just one battery is less error-prone than 3). But if we have significant efficency gains from going to 3 batteries in a row, that would be OK too.
That would bring me back to the amp question. I read this TAS5630 chip has 300W - I also read it brings 200W at 50V. There are boards available it seems. I'd still prefer to buy a complete/tested amp that gives me 300W but if that has severe drawbacks I'd also get two boards, one for each speaker. Remember, I want to power PA boxes and address 200 people outside (even if just for a short time).
So I'd still be interested in recommendations for:
- Amps that fit my requirements
- Speaker recommendations
Thanks again!
If you want to use 12V, if your battery is capable of providing a lot of current, you can use a DC-DC booster to generate the higher voltage (36V or 48V) that is necessary for the amplifier.
Most of the cheap packaged TAS5630 amplifiers out there have a 5.5/2.1 mm DC connector. Though there are higher current versions of this connector, most of the connectors used on the cheap boxes can probably only support 3A-4A. Cooling solutions are also typically very suboptimal, small heat sink, not much ventilation, no active cooling, etc.
Alternatively, you can buy a beefy TAS5630 board that comes with really solid terminal block for power connection. You really don't have to solder anything. There are screw-in terminal blocks for the output (speaker) connections and RCA connectors for input connection. It also has a relatively large heat sink and a fan.
48V DC is borderline in terms of electrical safety, so make sure you isolate all the connections and put the amplifier (and DC-DC booster) in a proper enclosure. At 36V DC, safety issues would be less critical, though you still want to protect the equipment from dirt/damage/water.
Most of the cheap packaged TAS5630 amplifiers out there have a 5.5/2.1 mm DC connector. Though there are higher current versions of this connector, most of the connectors used on the cheap boxes can probably only support 3A-4A. Cooling solutions are also typically very suboptimal, small heat sink, not much ventilation, no active cooling, etc.
Alternatively, you can buy a beefy TAS5630 board that comes with really solid terminal block for power connection. You really don't have to solder anything. There are screw-in terminal blocks for the output (speaker) connections and RCA connectors for input connection. It also has a relatively large heat sink and a fan.
48V DC is borderline in terms of electrical safety, so make sure you isolate all the connections and put the amplifier (and DC-DC booster) in a proper enclosure. At 36V DC, safety issues would be less critical, though you still want to protect the equipment from dirt/damage/water.
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Multiple speakers off of a small amp will give more output than the brute force method. No replacement for displacement.
Multiple speakers (especally bass/sub) is helping a lot. Displacement isn't helping that much though, radiation impedance, or in other words: surface, is the keyword outdoors.
That's ofcourse true but it has to have ventilation at the same time or external heatsinks.
A DC-DC converter is a very good option, if you only want to use one battery. You still need more capacity (Ah) since the load is the same and P=IxU, you need more current which translates into a much bigger battery (3x) or - again - several smaller ones in parallel.
Power wise you'll get with 48V double the power of 36V.
Not sure if these are available in Europe, but Yellowtop Optima batteries, which are designed for Deep Cycle operation, can deliver 25A for two hours or more. That's about of 300W of steady power for 2 hours from a single battery that weighs about 15Kg. Should be able to drive quite a bit of volume with that kind of power and a Class-D amp, especially if you have high efficiency PA speakers (95dB or more sensitivity)
Thanks again! We'll look into multiple speakers. We still don't want to have more than 70kg in total to still be able to move things around. That's why we thought 2 fullrange speakers would be best.
Thanks for the tip about the battery. Are other AGM batteries worse for this application? Some are quite a bit cheaper than these yellowtop optima batteries.
Still really interested in some concrete amp recommendations.
We might do something with these boards - if there's an option that does what we need out of the box for up to 500 Euro, that would be preferable (less error-prone). I have some soldering experience, but when having 25A constant currency I think I'd have to find someone with more experience to double check (that's possible to do, but a bit more involved than I thought initially).
So, any 2 channel 12-48V amps that can deliver 300W RMS on 8 ohms?
If that is just not available, we could also go for mono and wire the two speakers in line so that we get 4 ohms. So then we'd need a one channel amp with enough power on 4 ohm to drive two wired 300W 8 ohm speakers.
Thanks for the tip about the battery. Are other AGM batteries worse for this application? Some are quite a bit cheaper than these yellowtop optima batteries.
Still really interested in some concrete amp recommendations.
We might do something with these boards - if there's an option that does what we need out of the box for up to 500 Euro, that would be preferable (less error-prone). I have some soldering experience, but when having 25A constant currency I think I'd have to find someone with more experience to double check (that's possible to do, but a bit more involved than I thought initially).
So, any 2 channel 12-48V amps that can deliver 300W RMS on 8 ohms?
If that is just not available, we could also go for mono and wire the two speakers in line so that we get 4 ohms. So then we'd need a one channel amp with enough power on 4 ohm to drive two wired 300W 8 ohm speakers.
If you get the TAS5630 board I linked earlier, it should be able to deliver 2x125W with less than 1% THD into 8-ohm speakers if you use it with a 12-to-48V step-up DC-DC converter. If your speakers are 4-ohms, you only need to step up to 36V.
You shouldn't have to solder anything. You need to connect the battery to the input of the step-up convertor with crimp-on terminals. (In order of connections, you should connect the cable the battery terminal as the last step.) You can buy the appropriate size crimp terminals and a crimping tool for not too much money at your hardware store or auto parts store. If the battery is not too far away from the rest of the electronics, you should be able to get away with 10 AWG cable. I would include a 30A inline fuse, which you can also get at the auto parts store.
You connect the output of the step-up converter to the power input of the amplifier. You can also use the same 10 awg cable for this, though 12 or even 14 AWG cable would be fine, too. You can use the same type of crimp terminals on the output of the step-up board. For the input of the amp board, you can either strip and tin the ends of the cable (hoops, that's soldering, I guess) or some kind of crimp-on spade that fits in the terminal blocks on the amp.
Note that the step-up converter I linked to earlier in my post would only support up to 20A current (240W input, probably means about 2x100W
from the AMP. Still a lot of power to get to 110dB+ if you have the right speakers and not too much low frequency (below 100Hz) going on. Or you can look for a higher power step-up converter. Again, your local auto-parts store may have something like that.
You shouldn't have to solder anything. You need to connect the battery to the input of the step-up convertor with crimp-on terminals. (In order of connections, you should connect the cable the battery terminal as the last step.) You can buy the appropriate size crimp terminals and a crimping tool for not too much money at your hardware store or auto parts store. If the battery is not too far away from the rest of the electronics, you should be able to get away with 10 AWG cable. I would include a 30A inline fuse, which you can also get at the auto parts store.
You connect the output of the step-up converter to the power input of the amplifier. You can also use the same 10 awg cable for this, though 12 or even 14 AWG cable would be fine, too. You can use the same type of crimp terminals on the output of the step-up board. For the input of the amp board, you can either strip and tin the ends of the cable (hoops, that's soldering, I guess) or some kind of crimp-on spade that fits in the terminal blocks on the amp.
Note that the step-up converter I linked to earlier in my post would only support up to 20A current (240W input, probably means about 2x100W
from the AMP. Still a lot of power to get to 110dB+ if you have the right speakers and not too much low frequency (below 100Hz) going on. Or you can look for a higher power step-up converter. Again, your local auto-parts store may have something like that.
Thanks a lot, that sounds quite feasable.
Would I gain something if I'd buy two TAS5630 boards, and put one in front of each speaker by paring the outputs? Would that mean I'd get 2x200W or doesn't it work to combine the two outputs of one board into a single one?
And how do these board compare to car amps that cost 500EUR+ for e.g. 2x300W RMS on 4 ohms (e.g. Alpine PDX)?
Would I gain something if I'd buy two TAS5630 boards, and put one in front of each speaker by paring the outputs? Would that mean I'd get 2x200W or doesn't it work to combine the two outputs of one board into a single one?
And how do these board compare to car amps that cost 500EUR+ for e.g. 2x300W RMS on 4 ohms (e.g. Alpine PDX)?
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