Hello All ,
I have lurked here for some time , and have done some searches of this forum for what material would be used for a Quasi-Ribbon tweeter like Magnepan uses .
I have modded a pair of Magnepan MGII s , I have built Oak Frames , and Up Graded the components in the Cross Over , along with re-wiring them to a Series Cross Over configuration.They sound
Fantastic .
However ,the MGIIs use a wire for the tweeter , where as the MMGs use a Aluminum Foil for the tweeter , which Magnepan calls a " Quasi Ribbon ".
I purchased a pair of MGIs for $49.00 , and the tweeter section on both drivers are corroded and broken . I intend to build Frames for these as well , along with the Series Cross Over and Upgraded Components .
I want to try to make my Own Quasi-Ribboned MGIs .{ Magnepan states that their ribbon is ".001 (thickness) ribbon ". } Aluminum foil for the tweeter sections on these , they'll be real Frankensteins lol . Does anyone have knowledge of an Aluminum Foil that would work for this application ?
Google searches have netted some results, but , those that I have contacted , have Minimum Quantity Lots you have to buy .
Sorry for being so long winded . . . and Thank You in Advance for Your Help in this matter .
Stephen
I have lurked here for some time , and have done some searches of this forum for what material would be used for a Quasi-Ribbon tweeter like Magnepan uses .
I have modded a pair of Magnepan MGII s , I have built Oak Frames , and Up Graded the components in the Cross Over , along with re-wiring them to a Series Cross Over configuration.They sound
Fantastic .
However ,the MGIIs use a wire for the tweeter , where as the MMGs use a Aluminum Foil for the tweeter , which Magnepan calls a " Quasi Ribbon ".
I purchased a pair of MGIs for $49.00 , and the tweeter section on both drivers are corroded and broken . I intend to build Frames for these as well , along with the Series Cross Over and Upgraded Components .
I want to try to make my Own Quasi-Ribboned MGIs .{ Magnepan states that their ribbon is ".001 (thickness) ribbon ". } Aluminum foil for the tweeter sections on these , they'll be real Frankensteins lol . Does anyone have knowledge of an Aluminum Foil that would work for this application ?
Google searches have netted some results, but , those that I have contacted , have Minimum Quantity Lots you have to buy .
Sorry for being so long winded . . . and Thank You in Advance for Your Help in this matter .
Stephen
Hi Stephen,
Check the "60" ribbon.... Hybrid" thread elsewhere in this section. Valvitude, I believe, recovers the foil for his ribbons from a particular make of capacitor. I think that thread has all the details.
Edit: actually it was here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1643937#post1643937
Right forum member, wrong thread...
Cheers,
Ed
Check the "60" ribbon.... Hybrid" thread elsewhere in this section. Valvitude, I believe, recovers the foil for his ribbons from a particular make of capacitor. I think that thread has all the details.
Edit: actually it was here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1643937#post1643937
Right forum member, wrong thread...
Cheers,
Ed
Thank You Ed !
I had read that thread , when doing my search of the forum . The problem I see with what " poopydoopynoopy " is doing , is that he is making 4 , 60 inch ribbons .
" After you get done roaching a few learning how to harvest the foil, and slicing/crimping it, you will get at least 2 60" ribbons out of each cap. Practice slicing and crimping on your "target" foil. "
To do what I want to do , the quasi ribbon will have to be at least 24 to 30 foot in length , which will allow for 1 continuous run , that goes from the top to bottom of the driver 6 times , and then is connected to the tabs that the Cross-Over connections go to .
I'll keep reading and searching . . . also , I have never had the oppertunity to disassemble a capacitor to determine whether or not it
would have the length I need .
Thanks Again Ed , Cheers Stephen
I had read that thread , when doing my search of the forum . The problem I see with what " poopydoopynoopy " is doing , is that he is making 4 , 60 inch ribbons .
" After you get done roaching a few learning how to harvest the foil, and slicing/crimping it, you will get at least 2 60" ribbons out of each cap. Practice slicing and crimping on your "target" foil. "
To do what I want to do , the quasi ribbon will have to be at least 24 to 30 foot in length , which will allow for 1 continuous run , that goes from the top to bottom of the driver 6 times , and then is connected to the tabs that the Cross-Over connections go to .
I'll keep reading and searching . . . also , I have never had the oppertunity to disassemble a capacitor to determine whether or not it
would have the length I need .
Thanks Again Ed , Cheers Stephen
poopydoopynoopy ,
I did NOT mean that You were doing something wrong . I commend You on Your Approach and Skill Level , I do not have those skills .
What I mean is , You are making a ribbon that is constructed of 4 pieces of foil that are 60 inches in length . . . and placed on a piece of tape .We are trying to do Different Things is All .
I need a piece of foil that is 24 to 30 foot long , It has to be one continuous piece , so that I can glue it to the mylar in place of the fine wire Magnepan uses on their older speakers for the tweeter section .
I certainly did not intend to besmirch You . I apologize for not wording it better .
Cheers , Stephen
I did NOT mean that You were doing something wrong . I commend You on Your Approach and Skill Level , I do not have those skills .
What I mean is , You are making a ribbon that is constructed of 4 pieces of foil that are 60 inches in length . . . and placed on a piece of tape .We are trying to do Different Things is All .
I need a piece of foil that is 24 to 30 foot long , It has to be one continuous piece , so that I can glue it to the mylar in place of the fine wire Magnepan uses on their older speakers for the tweeter section .
I certainly did not intend to besmirch You . I apologize for not wording it better .
Cheers , Stephen
Update on Foil Search . . .
I made some phone calls today regarding my search for aluminum foil . I had a phone number for ESPI Metals . . . they do not sell to the public , upon hearing this , I asked the Friendly Person on the other end of the phone if She knew of a Business that dealt in the Aluminum Foil that did sell to the Public.
She gave me the name " McMaster-Carr " . . . I did a quick google search and came with contact info . I called them, and Yes they have a product that will suit my needs ( I Hope ) .
I ordered a roll of this stuff , it's 6 inches wide , and .001 thick , and a ( unfortunately ) comes as a roll of 250 feet . . . way more than I'll use , but hey . . . if I mess it up , I'll have plenty to experiment with .
Cheers , Stephen
I made some phone calls today regarding my search for aluminum foil . I had a phone number for ESPI Metals . . . they do not sell to the public , upon hearing this , I asked the Friendly Person on the other end of the phone if She knew of a Business that dealt in the Aluminum Foil that did sell to the Public.
She gave me the name " McMaster-Carr " . . . I did a quick google search and came with contact info . I called them, and Yes they have a product that will suit my needs ( I Hope ) .
I ordered a roll of this stuff , it's 6 inches wide , and .001 thick , and a ( unfortunately ) comes as a roll of 250 feet . . . way more than I'll use , but hey . . . if I mess it up , I'll have plenty to experiment with .
Cheers , Stephen
StephenEC said:
No apologies!
I was mostly wondering if you knew something I did not and I wanted to find out what it was if you did😀
I would hate to go through all this and be missing something or not doing something right and nobody says anything, you know?
I like this board many of the car boards I frequent have people who just love to put others down, not so here!
I appreciate the compliment, flattery will get you everywhere!
paul
P.S. let's have some pics!
poopydoopynoopy ,
No problem . . . Internet Forums , can be Outrageous at times , and
it seems that when I try to convey my thoughts , the written word fails me .javascript:smilie('😀')
The forums I frequent the most are Friendly, and some are Moderated , which IMO , makes for a Decent Experience . . . Plus , I'm just not going to argue over my hobby of Audio .
Cheers , Stephen
ps . . . I'll post photos when this project gets underway , I'm just gathering the materials I'm going to use at this point . I have all ready bought the speakers , and they need the tweeter sections rewired , only instead of the factory original wire , I'm going to implement the aluminum foil in place of the wire .
Magnepan did not employ the quasi-ribbon ( aka aluminum foil tweeter ) on the MGI or the MGII s . . . so , I'm kinda excited about seeing if I can make these old girls sing beautiful music .
No problem . . . Internet Forums , can be Outrageous at times , and
it seems that when I try to convey my thoughts , the written word fails me .javascript:smilie('😀')
The forums I frequent the most are Friendly, and some are Moderated , which IMO , makes for a Decent Experience . . . Plus , I'm just not going to argue over my hobby of Audio .
Cheers , Stephen
ps . . . I'll post photos when this project gets underway , I'm just gathering the materials I'm going to use at this point . I have all ready bought the speakers , and they need the tweeter sections rewired , only instead of the factory original wire , I'm going to implement the aluminum foil in place of the wire .
Magnepan did not employ the quasi-ribbon ( aka aluminum foil tweeter ) on the MGI or the MGII s . . . so , I'm kinda excited about seeing if I can make these old girls sing beautiful music .
Hi Stephen,
I was considering doing a simular rewire with my Maggie IIIa's.
There was an Audio Xpress article (May 2001) where the author used "sensing tape" or also called "cue tape" to make up his diy ribbons. The article states the thickness is around 8.6um with a 10um adhesive layer.
A quick search of E-bay shows some 3/16" wide cue tape available.
How is your project going?
Sean
I was considering doing a simular rewire with my Maggie IIIa's.
There was an Audio Xpress article (May 2001) where the author used "sensing tape" or also called "cue tape" to make up his diy ribbons. The article states the thickness is around 8.6um with a 10um adhesive layer.
A quick search of E-bay shows some 3/16" wide cue tape available.
How is your project going?
Sean
Sean ,
Thanks for the information . !
As far as the project goes , I have acquired some aluminum foil , it's .001 thick , and 6 inches wide , and 250 foot on the roll . I have an Idea how I'm going to cut it to the width I want .
Once winter is over , I'll call Magnepan and order one of their tweeter kits , that way , I'll have the glue that they use .
I bought this pair of MGIs dirt cheap , and I want to try this mod , who knows , it might flop , and then again , it might sound Great .
My MGII's sound Fantastic with Wooden Frames and Up-Graded Cross-Over Components , along with using the series style cross -over
wiring .
Since I all ready have the external cross overs built , once I get the quasi -ribbon in place , I'll see what gives . . . hopefully , Sweet Music . . . if not , it won't be that hard to strip and try something else .
Thanks for the information . !
As far as the project goes , I have acquired some aluminum foil , it's .001 thick , and 6 inches wide , and 250 foot on the roll . I have an Idea how I'm going to cut it to the width I want .
Once winter is over , I'll call Magnepan and order one of their tweeter kits , that way , I'll have the glue that they use .
I bought this pair of MGIs dirt cheap , and I want to try this mod , who knows , it might flop , and then again , it might sound Great .
My MGII's sound Fantastic with Wooden Frames and Up-Graded Cross-Over Components , along with using the series style cross -over
wiring .
Since I all ready have the external cross overs built , once I get the quasi -ribbon in place , I'll see what gives . . . hopefully , Sweet Music . . . if not , it won't be that hard to strip and try something else .
Stephenec,
I have built several full range planars using aluminium tape already glued and sold in rolls 9mm wide and 45metres long. A security foil used on windows to detect breakages. My first speaker is still working after nearly 20 yrs! Care is needed in placing the foil, but once in position it stays there. It is available from CPC Co UK. The No. is SR00001, it only costs about $2 a roll. Regards Anthony.
I have built several full range planars using aluminium tape already glued and sold in rolls 9mm wide and 45metres long. A security foil used on windows to detect breakages. My first speaker is still working after nearly 20 yrs! Care is needed in placing the foil, but once in position it stays there. It is available from CPC Co UK. The No. is SR00001, it only costs about $2 a roll. Regards Anthony.
JAMESBOS ,
I thank You for responding . I have bought some foil without tape, as I plan to strip the wires from the mylar membrane , and the apply the foil using 3M spray adhesive + Miloxane or whatever magnepan is calling their Adhesive .
I was only going to do the tweeter section , however , WrineX , in this post WrineW wrote :
" yeah why they still use whires i dont know, if i onwed a factory it whould be printed. the wires have some mass of course .
have my magnets , and jesus , made one bad sale there haha, waaaaay waaay to weak.
well hope i can use it for something else, for now i just bought a pair of MG1 Improved , they sound much beter then the SMGa and the MG1 not improved and also beter then the SMGc i had.
but still looking for a nice magnet deal to make either mid high panels or fullrange with alu foil coil instead of wire. "
The last sentence has me pondering what would happen if I changed out ALL the wires on my project MGI 's . The original driver has a bass/midrange section, and then the tweeter section . I'm wondering what might happen if the bass/mid range section was also aluminum foil instead of wire .
I thank You for responding . I have bought some foil without tape, as I plan to strip the wires from the mylar membrane , and the apply the foil using 3M spray adhesive + Miloxane or whatever magnepan is calling their Adhesive .
I was only going to do the tweeter section , however , WrineX , in this post WrineW wrote :
" yeah why they still use whires i dont know, if i onwed a factory it whould be printed. the wires have some mass of course .
have my magnets , and jesus , made one bad sale there haha, waaaaay waaay to weak.
well hope i can use it for something else, for now i just bought a pair of MG1 Improved , they sound much beter then the SMGa and the MG1 not improved and also beter then the SMGc i had.
but still looking for a nice magnet deal to make either mid high panels or fullrange with alu foil coil instead of wire. "
The last sentence has me pondering what would happen if I changed out ALL the wires on my project MGI 's . The original driver has a bass/midrange section, and then the tweeter section . I'm wondering what might happen if the bass/mid range section was also aluminum foil instead of wire .
you must have the mass of the bass wires...
Bass wire mass is necessary... Post #38
given the tension and physical dimensions of the bass panel section you must have the wire mass to be able to drop the resonant frequency of the panel. Think of it as a tuned resonant system where the diaphragm is the suspension for the voice coil. The tweeter section you can get away with changing out to thin foil but don't play with the bass wire.
Bass wire mass is necessary... Post #38
given the tension and physical dimensions of the bass panel section you must have the wire mass to be able to drop the resonant frequency of the panel. Think of it as a tuned resonant system where the diaphragm is the suspension for the voice coil. The tweeter section you can get away with changing out to thin foil but don't play with the bass wire.
moray james ,
Thank You moray james !!! I appreciate Your Help , so I guess it'll be My Style Quasi-Ribbon tweeter section . . . on an old model MGI .
I wondered about the Mass issue , but that's about as far as I went .
Would a Thicker Foil do ? or is the sheer weight of the wire the factor and not just the gauge of the wire ?
Again , Thank You moray james for Your Insight !
Cheers , Stephen
Thank You moray james !!! I appreciate Your Help , so I guess it'll be My Style Quasi-Ribbon tweeter section . . . on an old model MGI .
I wondered about the Mass issue , but that's about as far as I went .
Would a Thicker Foil do ? or is the sheer weight of the wire the factor and not just the gauge of the wire ?
Again , Thank You moray james for Your Insight !
Cheers , Stephen
Bass mod...
well you could replace the bass wire with a foil if you were fudge the mass of the foil to match the wire. Would that work better than the wire? I would think so but could you hear the difference? I think that this falls into the it's not broken so don't fix it catagory. If you were doing a necessary rebuild why not but I would not undo a working panel just to go the foil route.
well you could replace the bass wire with a foil if you were fudge the mass of the foil to match the wire. Would that work better than the wire? I would think so but could you hear the difference? I think that this falls into the it's not broken so don't fix it catagory. If you were doing a necessary rebuild why not but I would not undo a working panel just to go the foil route.
dead thread maybe, but i succesfully used a set of demolished SMGa'and replaced al wire by foil. resonance is still around 50 hertz just like the original. but then again my foil ended up measuring 5 ohms. so that means a litle less weight, but you can tune this resistance by width of the foil ofc.
theres a funny thing i have to say about the whole discussion, and its this!..
Aluminum has a certain weight, also a certain resistance wich is a result of the ammoutn of aluminium used. so if you will end up with 4 ohm on either Wire or foil, the size in square mm2 is the same hence the resistance. so you can use foil or wire whatever you prefer. i prefer foil caus it does not need a rig, just a steady hand. also it does not require to put ur whole panel in some crap glue from 3M and does not need meloxane or whatever the stuff is called from magnepan.
ok so not adding half a liter of glue and the other stuff saves weight. so resonance should go up. i did not noticed this to happen. but if it did just give ur foil one layer of latex paint. it will seal the foil so it wont corode as easy (aluminium corodes instant thats why it does not rust any further) but leave aluminium foil in the open air for serveral years, and it will get brittle. so you can seal it if you want.
redoing a panel is also way easy, with siome care just remove the foil and al is fine. dont rush or you tear it up. beter use a hairdryer to warm up the glue on the foil and you ge tit of without any tears!!!. dont use heat gun or it also effects the mylar. and will lose the pretension aplied by magnepan.
im doing a rebuild of a tympani 1d at this moment with this method.
heres an interesting link of foil cut on desired with (at least almost) from 3 mm to whatever.
its cheap and verry nicely packed
The Masking Shop - Aluminium Foil Tape
there foil is 40 micron almost twice as heavy as magnepan says to use on there tweeter. its best use it for the bass pannels. but on the other hand magnepan can say they use 20 mincron foil but it all comes down to the width. if there foil is 3 mm and we could have the 2 times as heavy foil cut to 1.5 mm you will end up with the same weight. (except the fact that ours of 1.5 mm has less glue on it witch saves weight again)
theres a funny thing i have to say about the whole discussion, and its this!..
Aluminum has a certain weight, also a certain resistance wich is a result of the ammoutn of aluminium used. so if you will end up with 4 ohm on either Wire or foil, the size in square mm2 is the same hence the resistance. so you can use foil or wire whatever you prefer. i prefer foil caus it does not need a rig, just a steady hand. also it does not require to put ur whole panel in some crap glue from 3M and does not need meloxane or whatever the stuff is called from magnepan.
ok so not adding half a liter of glue and the other stuff saves weight. so resonance should go up. i did not noticed this to happen. but if it did just give ur foil one layer of latex paint. it will seal the foil so it wont corode as easy (aluminium corodes instant thats why it does not rust any further) but leave aluminium foil in the open air for serveral years, and it will get brittle. so you can seal it if you want.
redoing a panel is also way easy, with siome care just remove the foil and al is fine. dont rush or you tear it up. beter use a hairdryer to warm up the glue on the foil and you ge tit of without any tears!!!. dont use heat gun or it also effects the mylar. and will lose the pretension aplied by magnepan.
im doing a rebuild of a tympani 1d at this moment with this method.
heres an interesting link of foil cut on desired with (at least almost) from 3 mm to whatever.
its cheap and verry nicely packed
The Masking Shop - Aluminium Foil Tape
there foil is 40 micron almost twice as heavy as magnepan says to use on there tweeter. its best use it for the bass pannels. but on the other hand magnepan can say they use 20 mincron foil but it all comes down to the width. if there foil is 3 mm and we could have the 2 times as heavy foil cut to 1.5 mm you will end up with the same weight. (except the fact that ours of 1.5 mm has less glue on it witch saves weight again)
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Just going to put this out there..3 years ago i put the Magnepan QR foil On a old pr of MG1c tweeter insted of wire, that i paid Magnepan $7.50. US per roll,one roll did two speakers.
This is the foil that went on the MG1.6qr tweeter... i got good sound Vary ezey to work with,tuffest foil i have ever used, it a mix of somthing...but these 1c were setup with the mylar in the back..so i lost output 2db or less..works well but i like the older wire sound go fig...
.dont know if you dont go......
Magnepan well sale any one the foil Thay use...just say you need the foil for the MG12s 1.6s hell even the 1.7s...look all the same to me...Have fun...keep Diying
This is the foil that went on the MG1.6qr tweeter... i got good sound Vary ezey to work with,tuffest foil i have ever used, it a mix of somthing...but these 1c were setup with the mylar in the back..so i lost output 2db or less..works well but i like the older wire sound go fig...
.dont know if you dont go......
Magnepan well sale any one the foil Thay use...just say you need the foil for the MG12s 1.6s hell even the 1.7s...look all the same to me...Have fun...keep Diying
what do you mean ? exactly? you lost dB ? well you ordered foil for another type of speaker, if this speaker has a smaller length in foil or wire it will end up in having a larger resistance then previous. wich wil end up in less spl. measure ur tweeter. if the original is 4 ohm and the new one is for instance 6 you will lose some dB. one other thing i forgot to mention is that foil can get rid of heat more easy then the wire it has far greater surface. wich means you can use smaller foil in square mm2 then with wire. correct me if im wrong.
other reason could be that a small wire is probably exactly in magnet gap wich is probably better. but then again magnepan did not change to foil for no reason i guess. i will creatre new post of the revision of the tymphany 1D , cleaning the first pannel right now and i try to calculate the needed foil width to ge to 8 ohms. kind of all depends on the gauge of the original wire wich i believe was 25 gauge.
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