Hello One and All,
I’m N3rd and this is my first post.
First let me say that I’m blown away by some of the amazing projects being shown here, I wish I had half as much talent!
Like everyone, I like as much bang for my buck as I can get. And, as I’m sure you’re all aware, excellent HiFi can cost a lot.
So, I’ve gotten it into my head that the most economical way to get great speakers is to buy a kit.
However, the problem with kits is that there are far fewer reviews to help sort the excellent from the good from the OK etc.
The kit I’m interested in is the Visaton MONITOR 890 MK III.
Link:
Visaton MONITOR 890 MK III - price per pair. – Impact Audio
Now, nearly £4000 on a kit is a lot of money, so may I ask if anyone has had any experience of how these speakers sound?
I know it’s a personal thing, but if anyone could give me some clue about how they sound, and if you heard better, what that was?
Quite a big ask, I know but info on kit quality seems a bit thin on the ground.
Thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to read and comment.
N3rd.
I’m N3rd and this is my first post.
First let me say that I’m blown away by some of the amazing projects being shown here, I wish I had half as much talent!
Like everyone, I like as much bang for my buck as I can get. And, as I’m sure you’re all aware, excellent HiFi can cost a lot.
So, I’ve gotten it into my head that the most economical way to get great speakers is to buy a kit.
However, the problem with kits is that there are far fewer reviews to help sort the excellent from the good from the OK etc.
The kit I’m interested in is the Visaton MONITOR 890 MK III.
Link:
Visaton MONITOR 890 MK III - price per pair. – Impact Audio
Now, nearly £4000 on a kit is a lot of money, so may I ask if anyone has had any experience of how these speakers sound?
I know it’s a personal thing, but if anyone could give me some clue about how they sound, and if you heard better, what that was?
Quite a big ask, I know but info on kit quality seems a bit thin on the ground.
Thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to read and comment.
N3rd.
The Visiton Monitor doesn't look like anything special. 50-17 khz , that's okay, but a 5 db or more dip at 1200 hz and another at 2700 hz? These are right in the middle of the vocal range for maximum annoyance. Plus E4000?!
It took me 8 months to find them but I found a pair of Peavey SP2 2004 spec for $400. $200 each. 8 months monitoring craislist & ebay since SP2-XT were stolen. Had to drive 430 miles RT to get them. But I get +-3 db 54 hz to 17 khz, plus 98 db 1w1m, plus it is minimum 5.4 ohms so I don't have to maintain an amp with 2 pairs output transistors for living room use. 6.5 ohms minimum on the woofer, tweeter only rated @ 60 watts. Addtional spec 2nd harmonic distortion down 25 db 50 hz - 12 khz. Look for a HD spec on any other brand! If buying used you can tell the 2004 spec SP2 because it has 500 W RMS rating, trapezoidal cabinet, and two speakons & two 1/4 phone plugs on the back. New ones only cost $599 in the US. Also assembled in Greece, or at least they used to be.
During my 8 months wait I was trying to build a pair of replacements out of 2 used RX22 tweeters with wedges for $170, ebay, plus 2 new Eminence 15" Deltapro-15A 8 ohm woofers, $155 each. Plywood cost so far is $48 for two 2'x4'x3/4" front & back, eight 2'x4'x1/2" MDF $11 each for sides. Jute underlayment $50, and crossover two .82 mH 15 ga coils $31 and two 20 uf 100 v poly caps $40. Port 3.5" I.D. toilet flange, $10 each. Screws 10-24 $20 for 100,pilot drill & drill stop $4, 10-24 taper & bottoming taps $4 each. So about 1/8 of E4000 for the Visiton kit. Plywood is 3/4 dimensional front & back & 1/2" MDF sides, Home Depot. Box design by David Weems Designing Building & Testing speakers 4th ed $14. My test microphones are 1" condensors from farnell, $27 each. recording by analog VOM $260 XLR cables $31. Test tones 32 hz to 7 khz, the hammond H182 organ in my tagline.
Hold up now is devising a way to draw a 14" circle on the front plywood. I have a sabre saw to cut the holes. I have a square to draw straight lines. I've varnished the ply to reduce splinters & will shipping tape the cutlines for further splinter supression.
It took me 8 months to find them but I found a pair of Peavey SP2 2004 spec for $400. $200 each. 8 months monitoring craislist & ebay since SP2-XT were stolen. Had to drive 430 miles RT to get them. But I get +-3 db 54 hz to 17 khz, plus 98 db 1w1m, plus it is minimum 5.4 ohms so I don't have to maintain an amp with 2 pairs output transistors for living room use. 6.5 ohms minimum on the woofer, tweeter only rated @ 60 watts. Addtional spec 2nd harmonic distortion down 25 db 50 hz - 12 khz. Look for a HD spec on any other brand! If buying used you can tell the 2004 spec SP2 because it has 500 W RMS rating, trapezoidal cabinet, and two speakons & two 1/4 phone plugs on the back. New ones only cost $599 in the US. Also assembled in Greece, or at least they used to be.
During my 8 months wait I was trying to build a pair of replacements out of 2 used RX22 tweeters with wedges for $170, ebay, plus 2 new Eminence 15" Deltapro-15A 8 ohm woofers, $155 each. Plywood cost so far is $48 for two 2'x4'x3/4" front & back, eight 2'x4'x1/2" MDF $11 each for sides. Jute underlayment $50, and crossover two .82 mH 15 ga coils $31 and two 20 uf 100 v poly caps $40. Port 3.5" I.D. toilet flange, $10 each. Screws 10-24 $20 for 100,pilot drill & drill stop $4, 10-24 taper & bottoming taps $4 each. So about 1/8 of E4000 for the Visiton kit. Plywood is 3/4 dimensional front & back & 1/2" MDF sides, Home Depot. Box design by David Weems Designing Building & Testing speakers 4th ed $14. My test microphones are 1" condensors from farnell, $27 each. recording by analog VOM $260 XLR cables $31. Test tones 32 hz to 7 khz, the hammond H182 organ in my tagline.
Hold up now is devising a way to draw a 14" circle on the front plywood. I have a sabre saw to cut the holes. I have a square to draw straight lines. I've varnished the ply to reduce splinters & will shipping tape the cutlines for further splinter supression.
Last edited:
It's a rip-off.
The problem: you are paying all that money for no cabinets.
As to the design itself:
Notably it uses a very vertically narrow sectoral midrange horn. This means that you (and perhaps others listening) must be in a very narrow vertical range (..as in: your ears need to be at a fairly precise height relative to this horn). You also can't be to close to the horn, (particularly on-axis with one of the dispersion elements within the horn) or you will hear the effects of diffraction more (with a "phase'ee" result).
Also, while the woofers are very high quality units - they are NOT higher efficiency designs. Basically what this means is that the crossover requires a lot of efficiency loss on both the horn/driver and the super tweeter. On the other hand you will have better low freq. extension near the average (..though this is something you could more easily achieve with a few subwoofers).
Question: are you interested in a high efficiency design (with necessarily limited bass extension), or you do you just want a larger speaker?
The problem: you are paying all that money for no cabinets.
As to the design itself:
Notably it uses a very vertically narrow sectoral midrange horn. This means that you (and perhaps others listening) must be in a very narrow vertical range (..as in: your ears need to be at a fairly precise height relative to this horn). You also can't be to close to the horn, (particularly on-axis with one of the dispersion elements within the horn) or you will hear the effects of diffraction more (with a "phase'ee" result).
Also, while the woofers are very high quality units - they are NOT higher efficiency designs. Basically what this means is that the crossover requires a lot of efficiency loss on both the horn/driver and the super tweeter. On the other hand you will have better low freq. extension near the average (..though this is something you could more easily achieve with a few subwoofers).
Question: are you interested in a high efficiency design (with necessarily limited bass extension), or you do you just want a larger speaker?
'excellent HiFi can cost a lot.' - It ain't necessarily so...
You didn't say what attracted you to that ancient design... let us know so we can suggest alternatives
( Econowave comes to mind)
you should be able to do better for less than 1000 quid
You didn't say what attracted you to that ancient design... let us know so we can suggest alternatives
( Econowave comes to mind)
you should be able to do better for less than 1000 quid
I can't comment on the sound, but they seem very expensive and the cabinets would be a right pain to make and to make them look good. A cabinet maker would probably be needed, which would add (in Oz dollars at a guess) about $3,000.
They would also be very heavy.
Geoff
They would also be very heavy.
Geoff
There are dozens of excellent kits available from some very well respected designers.
But you first have to decide on your particular listening needs. How big is your room, what are its acoustical characteristics, where will you sit while listening, how much bass do you expect, what type of music do you listen to, and how loud do you want it to play?
You also need to consider the type and power of the amplifier you intend to use.
From that you can then narrow it down to the alignment type, sealed, ported, etc., and finally how many and what type of drivers will be best.
With all of that resolved, you can then shop for kits designed by experts such as Dennis Murphy, Paul Carmody, Jeff Bagby, and others. The largest selection can be found at Meniscus Audio, but Madisound, Parts Express, and diysoundgroup have many good kits as well.
One fairly recent design that has received good reviews is Dennis Murphy’s Philharmonic Audio BMR Speaker Kit available for $946 per pair.
But it’s not the only one to consider. There are many excellent designs. You’re going to have to do the homework to figure out which ones are best for your situation.
But you first have to decide on your particular listening needs. How big is your room, what are its acoustical characteristics, where will you sit while listening, how much bass do you expect, what type of music do you listen to, and how loud do you want it to play?
You also need to consider the type and power of the amplifier you intend to use.
From that you can then narrow it down to the alignment type, sealed, ported, etc., and finally how many and what type of drivers will be best.
With all of that resolved, you can then shop for kits designed by experts such as Dennis Murphy, Paul Carmody, Jeff Bagby, and others. The largest selection can be found at Meniscus Audio, but Madisound, Parts Express, and diysoundgroup have many good kits as well.
One fairly recent design that has received good reviews is Dennis Murphy’s Philharmonic Audio BMR Speaker Kit available for $946 per pair.
But it’s not the only one to consider. There are many excellent designs. You’re going to have to do the homework to figure out which ones are best for your situation.
Dear N3rd,
I'm afraid that the above may not be true at all since the kit manufacturer wouldn't make any money that way. Besides, they know that it's the beginner (with untrained hands and ears) who goes for the "kit" and are therefore not very concerned about accuracy, performance etc., that are too detailed things to be picked up by a beginner. Further, such a kit makes you only a carpenter, while still making a good margin off your purchase.
I suggest (instead) that you start reading about speaker design little by little, while also controlling your urge to try something, until you've learnt enough to build. Try to follow (read, simulate, compare) proven designs with measurements etc. in order to get used to seeing how a decent set of data/curves look like.
On the other hand, if you're very sure that you won't make it that way (too old to learn, too busy, math is bad etc.) I suggest that you purchase a ready-made speaker from a reputed manufacturer. Nevertheless, since you would then have to select your speaker from thousands of models from hundreds of brands, you still won't be able to completely escape the learning part of it. It wouldn't be DIY either.
All the best.
EDIT: How speakers sound is a highly subjective matter that varies from person to person. So, listen to different speakers yourself to find out which kind sounds good/interesting to you.
Last edited:
If you have that sort of budget for a DIY speaker then you can't go too far wrong with the "Open Source Monkey Box" that is fully documented on this site. Thee is also a thread developing a tower version as well if you search.
Open Source Monkey Box
The Bill of Materials (drivers/crossover) is around 1500euro per speaker and you can probably do the boxes/fixings etc. for another 500euro (euro = pounds once you have added VAT). This has one of the best mid range drivers around.
Open Source Monkey Box
The Bill of Materials (drivers/crossover) is around 1500euro per speaker and you can probably do the boxes/fixings etc. for another 500euro (euro = pounds once you have added VAT). This has one of the best mid range drivers around.
There are 3 official reviews made by Image HiFi, Stereo and Klang & Ton. Some of it is quoted on Visaton website.
I have calculated the total cost of the kit without the printed circuit board if it were purchased in a shop called visatonshop at as separate parts that the kit is made of.
It summed to 2,644 €, Austrian vat included. Perhaps it would be cheaper to import these bits.
Officially, the kit price is 3,537 €.
Last edited:
If you want to spend that kind of money take a look at "A.O.S. Audio Systeme". Sorry this site is only available in german. You'll have to really stretch yourself to outperform the offered quality. Take a look at the "MONITOR M40 aktiv" or above.
A good quality for passive solutions is always Troels Gravesen. From my pov the AOS are better...
Have fun
A good quality for passive solutions is always Troels Gravesen. From my pov the AOS are better...
Have fun
Last edited:
Absolutely, very sensible advice indeed.
You need to have a good think about these questions before you commit the Euros. For example, the blurb on the Visaton states that its bass output can be felt, like being at a disco or something like that. However, that's probably no use to you if you listen to acoustic music or jazz. And if you have a small-ish listening room, do you really want two huge boxes?
The designers mentioned, and others, have produced great, well regarded high end designs at a fraction of the cost of what you're looking at. Nothing against Visaton, they make nice drivers and have a wide range of kits, but there are a lot of options out there.
It took me over a year to work out what I wanted: what type of sound, WAF (very important), cabinet size and ease of construction, etc. Even then, I had a short list of four options.
I wouldn't get too hung up on buying a "kit": all the designers mentioned have published plans, Bills of Materiel and specified the suggested type and value of crossover parts, so it's easy to buy all the bits from your supplier.
Good luck and enjoy the journey!
Geoff
Last edited:
The advantage of a design incorporating such terrific bass drive units is these are optimal for a vented design, F3/F6/F10= 33/30/26 Hz. Spl sensitivity by the tsp is 92.84/2.83V/1m. Two of these and subtracting baffle step is indeed of high sensitivity.
Not compared to an actual *high sensitivity woofer (or two - particularly if 16 ohms in parallel), and especially not compared to the mid.-treble horn and super tweeter. (..at least not above 50 Hz, when considering BR in an appropriate cabinet.)
*a driver that's about 99-100 db 1/watt 1 meter IB above 250 Hz.
*a driver that's about 99-100 db 1/watt 1 meter IB above 250 Hz.
Last edited:
Thank You!
My sincere thanks to all of you that have replied!
I must admit I'm a little overwhelmed, so much information 🙂
Some very good points were raised though, what do I listen to?
I have quite a wide range of musical tastes, electronic, rock, pop mainly. Though I'll explore other genres too.
What's the room like?
My listening room is 20x11ft (6.1x3.36m) the ceiling is 7.6 feet (2.28m)
I'm free to do whatever I want with the room, speakers could be the ugliest things you've ever seen, no problem.
My current setup:
Sources: Custom built fanless PC with Windows 10 & JRiver MC.
A Panasonic UB900 4k Blu-Ray serving as a temporary CD transport.
DAC: Audiobyte Hydra Vox
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/audiobyte-hydravox-dac-and-hydrazap-power-supply/
Amp: Atoll IN300
https://www.maplatine.com/en/amps-preamps/3752-atoll-in300-integrated-amplifier.html
Speakers: Kralk Audio TDB-12. Paid a bit more to get Mundorf caps, Audiogold resistors & thicker gauge wiring on the crossover.
Kralk Audio TDB-12 Professional Three-Way Studio Monitor Old school appearance with powerful musical performance. Review By Clive Meakins
What I want to improve is the imaging and a bigger sound stage (if that's not mutually exclusive) and I'd like more bass at lower listening levels.
Is a kit suitable for me?
To be honest, I don't know. I'm OK with electronics, soldering isn't a problem. My woodwork isn't great though, I can do basic stuff like drilling holes clamping, gluing etc. But I'd have to get someone else to cut the cabinets for me. Something I don't mind paying for.
So, what do you think? Any kits you think would fit the bill?
Again, thanks to anyone taking the time to post and help steer this noob nerd though the vast array of speaker possibilities.
N3rd.
My sincere thanks to all of you that have replied!
I must admit I'm a little overwhelmed, so much information 🙂
Some very good points were raised though, what do I listen to?
I have quite a wide range of musical tastes, electronic, rock, pop mainly. Though I'll explore other genres too.
What's the room like?
My listening room is 20x11ft (6.1x3.36m) the ceiling is 7.6 feet (2.28m)
I'm free to do whatever I want with the room, speakers could be the ugliest things you've ever seen, no problem.
My current setup:
Sources: Custom built fanless PC with Windows 10 & JRiver MC.
A Panasonic UB900 4k Blu-Ray serving as a temporary CD transport.
DAC: Audiobyte Hydra Vox
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/audiobyte-hydravox-dac-and-hydrazap-power-supply/
Amp: Atoll IN300
https://www.maplatine.com/en/amps-preamps/3752-atoll-in300-integrated-amplifier.html
Speakers: Kralk Audio TDB-12. Paid a bit more to get Mundorf caps, Audiogold resistors & thicker gauge wiring on the crossover.
Kralk Audio TDB-12 Professional Three-Way Studio Monitor Old school appearance with powerful musical performance. Review By Clive Meakins
What I want to improve is the imaging and a bigger sound stage (if that's not mutually exclusive) and I'd like more bass at lower listening levels.
Is a kit suitable for me?
To be honest, I don't know. I'm OK with electronics, soldering isn't a problem. My woodwork isn't great though, I can do basic stuff like drilling holes clamping, gluing etc. But I'd have to get someone else to cut the cabinets for me. Something I don't mind paying for.
So, what do you think? Any kits you think would fit the bill?
Again, thanks to anyone taking the time to post and help steer this noob nerd though the vast array of speaker possibilities.
N3rd.
I don't know where you get these ideas from, but they couldn't be further from the truth. The fact is that kits represent outstanding values by providing comparable and often times better performance than commercially produced speakers costing 5 to 10 times more.
Sorry messed up the link to the DAC:
Audiobyte Hydra.VOX DAC and Hydra.ZAP power supply | Hi-Fi+
Nerd 🙂
Audiobyte Hydra.VOX DAC and Hydra.ZAP power supply | Hi-Fi+
Nerd 🙂
Given your overall setup, music tastes, etc, and the fact that you are located in Europe, I highly suggest that you look at kits from Troels Gravesen. Here is the link if you haven't visited his site yet.
DIY-Loudspeakers
He has many designs to choose from and I think you have a very good chance of finding something to suit your needs there.
Elsinore's and maybe some subwoofers from Rythmik Audio.
-it's a long thread (though you certainly don't need to read it all, or even most of it):
The "Elsinore Project" Thread
Elsinore Speakers DIY
Basically you purchase the waveguides direct from Joe, and then you source the drivers, crossover parts & wiring, and have a cabinet builder do the cabinets. (..I've spec'ed-out better quality crossover parts and wiring before.)
The design should do what you *want better than most others, other than ultra-deep bass at high spl's. For that (along with a more "even" bass response in-room at multiple positions), 2-3 Rythmik Audio subwoofers ("random" placement) should do the "trick".
*read dmcgown's post's on this page:
The "Elsinore Project" Thread
Last edited:
At the risk of bringing up old arguments, this can be demonstrated if you work out the economics of commercial speakers and do the maths of distribution, mark-ups, packaging and freight, etc.
I won't mention names, but there is a commercial speaker which sells here for about A$2,500 pr: the drivers - which I'm almost sure are Vifa full range and tweeter - and crossover parts are readily available from a local DIY supplier for under $200. A DIY design with the same drivers and possibly a better crossover is readily found.
Of course kit and component suppliers make money, otherwise they wouldn't be in business. To me the only problem with DIY is that my woodworking and finishing skills are less than stellar.
Geoff
N3rd,
When considering what loudspeaker might be suitable, the listening room plays an important part in the whole listening experience.
Selecting a loudspeaker with large dual woofers ( with a total of 4 with L & R channels reproducing bass) it may be a little too much in a 20 foot x 11 foot x 7.6 foot room for good sound balance.
You might consider a powered subwoofer with a narrow open baffle design. Wood work is relatively simple and OB allows for a lot of experimentation with the design. There are many OB advocates on this forum from which you might draw advice and help. Such a design will give you a wider soundstage and depth as well as giving you the option of changing components and drivers to suit your taste. It is a learning experience you might enjoy as many of us have.
C.M
When considering what loudspeaker might be suitable, the listening room plays an important part in the whole listening experience.
Selecting a loudspeaker with large dual woofers ( with a total of 4 with L & R channels reproducing bass) it may be a little too much in a 20 foot x 11 foot x 7.6 foot room for good sound balance.
You might consider a powered subwoofer with a narrow open baffle design. Wood work is relatively simple and OB allows for a lot of experimentation with the design. There are many OB advocates on this forum from which you might draw advice and help. Such a design will give you a wider soundstage and depth as well as giving you the option of changing components and drivers to suit your taste. It is a learning experience you might enjoy as many of us have.
C.M