Hi all,
I am looking to invest some money into some new tools and equipment, and am looking for some cost effective solutions, and wondered what products or advice would be best suited to the current situation and times in 2021. I enjoy tinkering with active and open baffle speakers and do some smaller circuit stuff. Plan to start an F5Turbo soon.
In addition to audio, I enjoy doing repair on arcade and video game systems. CRT monitors, power supplies and that stuff.
My current thinking is along these lines:
- My current multi-meter is a cheap digital one with mangled probes that need replacing - should I just get new probes or upgrade?
- The Dayton DATSv3 looks like a good solution for testing speaker TS parameters and more, and also gives the ability to check for LCR of components.
- Measurement mic... I've seen the Dayton IMM6 is on for $20usd... Would you recommend this as a cheap solution or is it worthwhile to spend more on something like a CSL U-MIK1? I would like the most ability for the $ without going nuts. Locally I can get a Sonarworks X20 (IIRC) but that's about it. I have an audio interface - Steinberg CI2 - if that helps any. I see many software options out there as well, such as REW etc.
- Oscilloscope is something that has always looked appealing and would be a long term, down the road thing... are the USB ones found online viable alternatives to standalone scopes? Has it come this far?
TLDR - I need some test gear and want to give myself a well rounded stable of tools/equipment.
Any advice on how to approach investing into these kinds of implements, or anything I am seriously overlooking are welcome... as well as any criticisms. I look forward to your replies and hope this thread will also help others in similar situations. Thanks.
I am looking to invest some money into some new tools and equipment, and am looking for some cost effective solutions, and wondered what products or advice would be best suited to the current situation and times in 2021. I enjoy tinkering with active and open baffle speakers and do some smaller circuit stuff. Plan to start an F5Turbo soon.
In addition to audio, I enjoy doing repair on arcade and video game systems. CRT monitors, power supplies and that stuff.
My current thinking is along these lines:
- My current multi-meter is a cheap digital one with mangled probes that need replacing - should I just get new probes or upgrade?
- The Dayton DATSv3 looks like a good solution for testing speaker TS parameters and more, and also gives the ability to check for LCR of components.
- Measurement mic... I've seen the Dayton IMM6 is on for $20usd... Would you recommend this as a cheap solution or is it worthwhile to spend more on something like a CSL U-MIK1? I would like the most ability for the $ without going nuts. Locally I can get a Sonarworks X20 (IIRC) but that's about it. I have an audio interface - Steinberg CI2 - if that helps any. I see many software options out there as well, such as REW etc.
- Oscilloscope is something that has always looked appealing and would be a long term, down the road thing... are the USB ones found online viable alternatives to standalone scopes? Has it come this far?
TLDR - I need some test gear and want to give myself a well rounded stable of tools/equipment.
Any advice on how to approach investing into these kinds of implements, or anything I am seriously overlooking are welcome... as well as any criticisms. I look forward to your replies and hope this thread will also help others in similar situations. Thanks.
A good handheld meter is a very useful investment. I would recommend a good used fluke 8060 as I have 1 and it has served me well for 25 years. Its a very high performance handheld with some nice audio features (dB & frequency). However there are good new meters as well. If you work on arcade games you will occasionally need to deal with a CRT display. You will need something that's safe working around those high voltages. And probably a good HV probe.
I can recommend two cheap scopes as good waveform monitors: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B087TBFB3K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 $150 and battery powered, usb charging. And this from eBay New Digital 2.4" LCD Handheld Oscilloscope DSO1511E+ 120MHz 500MS/s ARM FPGA ADC | eBay which despite its tiny screen is quite useful. Its also on Amazon but 2X the cost. Amazon's return policy however cannot be beat. Neither would be a first choice for mixed signal troubleshooting like an arcade game's digital circuits. At that stage you should look at Rigol or Siglent.
Older CRT scopes have a lot going for them but the size, power consumption and age are not among those qualities.
Acoustic measurement stuff is dependent on the platform you use. If a laptop you may be better served with a USB measurement microphone. It obviates all the issues around mike preamps. Arta and REW are both good. Alternatively Omnimike integrates software and hardware so you get on with measuring and optimizing your speakers and room.
Similar for audio measurements- a Quantasylum QA401/402 so you focus on electronic measurements and analysis instead of soundcards etc.
I can recommend two cheap scopes as good waveform monitors: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B087TBFB3K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 $150 and battery powered, usb charging. And this from eBay New Digital 2.4" LCD Handheld Oscilloscope DSO1511E+ 120MHz 500MS/s ARM FPGA ADC | eBay which despite its tiny screen is quite useful. Its also on Amazon but 2X the cost. Amazon's return policy however cannot be beat. Neither would be a first choice for mixed signal troubleshooting like an arcade game's digital circuits. At that stage you should look at Rigol or Siglent.
Older CRT scopes have a lot going for them but the size, power consumption and age are not among those qualities.
Acoustic measurement stuff is dependent on the platform you use. If a laptop you may be better served with a USB measurement microphone. It obviates all the issues around mike preamps. Arta and REW are both good. Alternatively Omnimike integrates software and hardware so you get on with measuring and optimizing your speakers and room.
Similar for audio measurements- a Quantasylum QA401/402 so you focus on electronic measurements and analysis instead of soundcards etc.
Used scopes on ebay can be very reasonable. Make sure they state that the unit is in working condition.
You may need new probes and power cord. If you spend over $150, get a new Rigol scope incl probes, instead.
Agilent DSO3062A 2-Channel 60 MHz Oscilloscope with RS-232 and GPIB interface | eBay
HP / AGILENT 54603B Oscilloscope 60 MHz Dual Channel W/ POWER CORD NICE UNIT !! | eBay
Agilent HP 1741A 100MHz Oscilloscope 2-Channel Storage Scope 689192474648 | eBay
HP Agilent 54622A 2-Channel 100 MHz Oscilloscope w/ N2757A GPIB Interface | eBay
Rigol DS1052E 50MHz 2-Ch Digital Oscilloscope ($259.00) : Saelig Online Store
You may need new probes and power cord. If you spend over $150, get a new Rigol scope incl probes, instead.
Agilent DSO3062A 2-Channel 60 MHz Oscilloscope with RS-232 and GPIB interface | eBay
HP / AGILENT 54603B Oscilloscope 60 MHz Dual Channel W/ POWER CORD NICE UNIT !! | eBay
Agilent HP 1741A 100MHz Oscilloscope 2-Channel Storage Scope 689192474648 | eBay
HP Agilent 54622A 2-Channel 100 MHz Oscilloscope w/ N2757A GPIB Interface | eBay
Rigol DS1052E 50MHz 2-Ch Digital Oscilloscope ($259.00) : Saelig Online Store
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Don't buy test equipment on ePay unless it comes with a calibration certificate from a NIST certified lab. And don't buy unless it comes from one of the many outfits that deal with used test equipment - or at least from someone who clearly has a clue about what they're dealing with.
Get a good handheld multimeter. A Fluke 70- or 80-series would be great and can be had calibrated for not that much money.
I would shy away from the cheapie scopes. I went scope shopping a few years back and ended up settling on the Keysight DSOX1102G. I bought it from Mouser (or Digikey, I forget) because they could ship months before Keysight. That scope's been well worth the price of admission.
Most seem to focus on the features of the scope when shopping, but even more important is the UI/UX as well as the protection circuits built in.
There's nothing wrong with the older analog scopes (provided you buy a calibrated one), but it is very nice to be able to capture slower waveforms and store scope images on a USB stick (which is why I bought mine).
I would shy away from USB scopes as they tend to have a very limited front-end. Typically you get 0.1 V/div and 1 V/div (or similar) and that's it. That's not sensitive enough for analog work.
You'll probably want a 100:1 or maybe even 1000:1 probe if you're poking around inside CRT monitors.
Cross-Spectrum Labs sell calibrated measurement microphones (Dayton EMM-6 and UMM-6) for not that much money: Cross·Spectrum - Calibrated Dayton Audio EMM-6 Microphones for Sale
A good external sound card (anything by Focusrite), maybe a sound card interface such as the one by Pete Millett or the one by Jan Didden, and some software will get you quite far with audio measurements. The Quant Asylum QA401 is a pretty capable box too.
Some may argue that their El-Cheapo Brand scope from Amazon is grrrreat, but I've generally found the El-Cheapo Brand tools to be a pain to work with. I end up buying the good tools eventually, so I've learned to just save up a bit longer and buy the good tools that I enjoy using. But that's me.
Tom
Get a good handheld multimeter. A Fluke 70- or 80-series would be great and can be had calibrated for not that much money.
I would shy away from the cheapie scopes. I went scope shopping a few years back and ended up settling on the Keysight DSOX1102G. I bought it from Mouser (or Digikey, I forget) because they could ship months before Keysight. That scope's been well worth the price of admission.
Most seem to focus on the features of the scope when shopping, but even more important is the UI/UX as well as the protection circuits built in.
There's nothing wrong with the older analog scopes (provided you buy a calibrated one), but it is very nice to be able to capture slower waveforms and store scope images on a USB stick (which is why I bought mine).
I would shy away from USB scopes as they tend to have a very limited front-end. Typically you get 0.1 V/div and 1 V/div (or similar) and that's it. That's not sensitive enough for analog work.
You'll probably want a 100:1 or maybe even 1000:1 probe if you're poking around inside CRT monitors.
Cross-Spectrum Labs sell calibrated measurement microphones (Dayton EMM-6 and UMM-6) for not that much money: Cross·Spectrum - Calibrated Dayton Audio EMM-6 Microphones for Sale
A good external sound card (anything by Focusrite), maybe a sound card interface such as the one by Pete Millett or the one by Jan Didden, and some software will get you quite far with audio measurements. The Quant Asylum QA401 is a pretty capable box too.
Some may argue that their El-Cheapo Brand scope from Amazon is grrrreat, but I've generally found the El-Cheapo Brand tools to be a pain to work with. I end up buying the good tools eventually, so I've learned to just save up a bit longer and buy the good tools that I enjoy using. But that's me.
Tom
And me too Tom--"so I have learned to just save up a bit longer ----" -same engineering philosophy.
Fair enough folks... I appreciate the feedback. I've always wanted a good Fluke meter. I think it's time I invest in one.
How does the DATSv3 compare to the diy LIMP module and ARTA?
Cross Spectrum is out of stock on mics ATM. I was considering other mics like the Sonar Works XREF20 or the Dayton EMM-6. I realize they're not calibrated like CSL does. Would they work as a stopgap? Am I better off trying to DIY one?
How does the DATSv3 compare to the diy LIMP module and ARTA?
Cross Spectrum is out of stock on mics ATM. I was considering other mics like the Sonar Works XREF20 or the Dayton EMM-6. I realize they're not calibrated like CSL does. Would they work as a stopgap? Am I better off trying to DIY one?
my 
,
- what precision do you need ?
- need to integer in testing chain (sigrok...) ?
I forget old apparatus due to bad calibration , aging parts, overpriced except for specifics (500MHZ scope...)
see:
multimeters : UT-805A
scopes : siglent, rigol
,- what precision do you need ?
- need to integer in testing chain (sigrok...) ?
I forget old apparatus due to bad calibration , aging parts, overpriced except for specifics (500MHZ scope...)
see:
multimeters : UT-805A
scopes : siglent, rigol
The Uni-T is less suitable here in the US since there seems to be no support.
You can get a Fluke 8060A for around $100 here. 4 1/2 digits. There are other good used options or something new. If more that $100 US I would want local support for something new. They would be Fluke, Keysight, Rigol, Siglent etc. There are lots of discussions on this stuff at EEVblog.
You can get a Fluke 8060A for around $100 here. 4 1/2 digits. There are other good used options or something new. If more that $100 US I would want local support for something new. They would be Fluke, Keysight, Rigol, Siglent etc. There are lots of discussions on this stuff at EEVblog.
My local music store can acquire me a Sonarworks XREF20 mic. It looks similar to Dayton and Behringers offerings. It's $90CAD.
Since CSL is outta the Q at the moment, would this be a viable option? Or should I just get a $25 Dayton IMM6 and use an adapter and my interface? I would like to be able to do some crossover work, nothing crazy but not do it blind.
Since CSL is outta the Q at the moment, would this be a viable option? Or should I just get a $25 Dayton IMM6 and use an adapter and my interface? I would like to be able to do some crossover work, nothing crazy but not do it blind.
I'd put my vote in for standalone 'scope every time, its just there, it always works, it boots fast (hopefully!), the ergonomics are pretty good, it doesn't take up screen space from your computer.
I would agree with Rayma , I get constant updates from my friends in the USA along with several private investigators there and its a never ending story .
Every month Windows is hacked --they correct the programming but the young hackers are well ahead of them , all because of "backdoors " so that Redmond and US/UK "security services can check out you are not a spy /terrorist /subversive or even now who you support.
Your video door bell is relayed back unencrypted for the benefit of third parties financial gain including burglars /the police/security services etc .
Many large holders of your personal info are constantly hacked including now medical records , its so bad now both UK and USA advertise for those young guys to work for them ---and yes I saw the UK version a while back .
Trust not the web everything goes through an extremely powerful computer looking for key phrases etc and don't trust public cloud , the CIA / NSA don't , neither do GCHQ that's why they are paying $$$$$$$$ for their own secure version .
Its so blatant now you don't even have to own a "tin hat " to be a believer just watch the security online news mainly in the USA .
Class actions in the USA have already paid out ---live in the UK ? ---forget it you don't have a legal chance .
Every month Windows is hacked --they correct the programming but the young hackers are well ahead of them , all because of "backdoors " so that Redmond and US/UK "security services can check out you are not a spy /terrorist /subversive or even now who you support.
Your video door bell is relayed back unencrypted for the benefit of third parties financial gain including burglars /the police/security services etc .
Many large holders of your personal info are constantly hacked including now medical records , its so bad now both UK and USA advertise for those young guys to work for them ---and yes I saw the UK version a while back .
Trust not the web everything goes through an extremely powerful computer looking for key phrases etc and don't trust public cloud , the CIA / NSA don't , neither do GCHQ that's why they are paying $$$$$$$$ for their own secure version .
Its so blatant now you don't even have to own a "tin hat " to be a believer just watch the security online news mainly in the USA .
Class actions in the USA have already paid out ---live in the UK ? ---forget it you don't have a legal chance .
I disagree pretty strongly about this. Any test equipment made in the last 40 years will hold its cal quite well enough for the requirements of DIY use.
Don’t bother with cal certificates. They’re generally just make work ripoffs.
+1.
If people are really serious about certificates, instruments should be certified every year or two, even a ruler or a caliber. Not just the one time certificates when buying new. that makes no sense.
If people are really serious about certificates, instruments should be certified every year or two, even a ruler or a caliber. Not just the one time certificates when buying new. that makes no sense.
Pretty much cost prohibitive except for govt or large commercial labs. If you do need it, sell the old stuff
and buy new stuff with cal. Of course only expensive, top quality gear is worth the high cost of cal.
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I once got a good deal on an HP3577 network analyzer on eBay. Or so I thought. Those familiar with the HP35xx series will know that it's a sizeable chassis probably 6-7 RU in height and built to fit a 19" rack. Those chassis are built like tanks and weigh about as much. The HP3577 weighs in at around 35 kg if I recall correctly.
I found a good deal, bought the analyzer, paid the seller, who shipped promptly. A few days later the box arrives. Yay! My first reaction was, "that's a pretty small box for an HP35xx". My heart sank a bit. I opened the box and my heart sank even more. The analyzer sat in the box with no padding. I think there was a thin piece of mattress foam and some of those air bags/void fill things.
It was obvious that the analyzer had been dropped and had landed on one of its rear corners. The corner had been crushed in by about 4-5 cm. Those familiar with the HP35xx chassis will know that this takes *A LOT* of force. Needless to say it did not pass the self test when powered up. There were no markings on the box that would indicate that the damage had occurred in transit.
The seller had insured the package and had me drop it off with USPS so he could file an insurance claim. The guys at the post office looked at the damage to the analyzer and the lack of damage to the box and basically said, "we'll take the paperwork, but we doubt it'll be covered". I relayed this to the seller who practically begged me not to open a case with eBay/PayPal. Since I wasn't willing to flush the money down the drain if the USPS didn't pay the insurance claim, I ended up filing a claim with eBay/PayPal on the 29th day after delivery (so the day before the deadline to file a claim). I got my money back but was out a lot of time.
Since then I have not bothered buying test equipment on ePay.
BTW: CAL certs are not overly expensive. A few hundred bucks for a 6.5-digit voltmeter if I recall correctly. I agree that it's a bit over the top for the hobbyist, but if I'm buying used gear I want some confidence that it still works. The $1500 + shipping that AP charges to calibrate my APx525 does make me cringe, however. That said, last I had it calibrated they did find the noise of one input to be higher than spec and swapped out that input.
Tom
I found a good deal, bought the analyzer, paid the seller, who shipped promptly. A few days later the box arrives. Yay! My first reaction was, "that's a pretty small box for an HP35xx". My heart sank a bit. I opened the box and my heart sank even more. The analyzer sat in the box with no padding. I think there was a thin piece of mattress foam and some of those air bags/void fill things.
It was obvious that the analyzer had been dropped and had landed on one of its rear corners. The corner had been crushed in by about 4-5 cm. Those familiar with the HP35xx chassis will know that this takes *A LOT* of force. Needless to say it did not pass the self test when powered up. There were no markings on the box that would indicate that the damage had occurred in transit.
The seller had insured the package and had me drop it off with USPS so he could file an insurance claim. The guys at the post office looked at the damage to the analyzer and the lack of damage to the box and basically said, "we'll take the paperwork, but we doubt it'll be covered". I relayed this to the seller who practically begged me not to open a case with eBay/PayPal. Since I wasn't willing to flush the money down the drain if the USPS didn't pay the insurance claim, I ended up filing a claim with eBay/PayPal on the 29th day after delivery (so the day before the deadline to file a claim). I got my money back but was out a lot of time.
Since then I have not bothered buying test equipment on ePay.
BTW: CAL certs are not overly expensive. A few hundred bucks for a 6.5-digit voltmeter if I recall correctly. I agree that it's a bit over the top for the hobbyist, but if I'm buying used gear I want some confidence that it still works. The $1500 + shipping that AP charges to calibrate my APx525 does make me cringe, however. That said, last I had it calibrated they did find the noise of one input to be higher than spec and swapped out that input.
Tom
That has very little do with getting calibration and everything to do with trusted packing and shipping. With proper shipping insurance, there is a good chance one can get generally get their money back.
One always takes a risk buying used equipment online. eBay & Craigslist has been good to me for buying and selling, but it is always a measured risk one takes.
A very good USB (computer needed) system is this one. https://www.tequipment.net/VellemanPCSGU250.html?v=7404
It is two channel oscilloscope with built-in frequency generator. It comes with software to do Bode plots (frequency response curves). You can hook a microphone to the inputs and plot room response curves. I use mine to measure curves of cross-overs. It does FFT frequency analysis. You can check harmonic distortion and see clipping events. It is not fancy, but at $70 it does pretty much everything that an audio amateur needs. You will still need a multi-meter because an oscilloscope is not a voltmeter and is dangerous if you use it as one.
Did not say that it was a great oscilloscope. However, it is just right for AUDIO frequencies. For $70 it includes a frequency generator with an assortment of wave forms including white noise. You can inject a 1khz signal into the amp and trace it through the system. You can check clipping and distortion. It has math functions built in. It even has digital signal storage and playback. For audio, it is an amazing tool. There really is no reason for a guy wanting to get involved with audio equipment to spend more.