A rare day off! Let's play with speakers.
I was recently given a pair of horn loaded line array cabs that defiantly have signs of being vintage. I'm not sure how old they are, but the cabs themselves seem to be in fairly good condition. The drivers on the other hand are all but completely gone. Of the 6 per cab only 3 remain, and they aren't anything I'd consider attempting to match.
These guys need brand new drivers. But before I spend time and money on something that was old and free, I would love everyone's opinion. Would it be worth it? I've never previously seen a line array implemented like this. Is this horn arrangement a failed concept of the past, or could loading these cabs with drivers be worthwhile?
As you can see, the drivers are mounted on a removable panel. It would be simple to create a new panel for new drivers.
I was thinking cheap, like these: Celestion Neodymium 5" Full-Range Woofer 4 Ohm
The throat of the horn is 5.5" by 38.5"
The enclosure has an internal volume of roughly 3.2 cubic feet.
I was recently given a pair of horn loaded line array cabs that defiantly have signs of being vintage. I'm not sure how old they are, but the cabs themselves seem to be in fairly good condition. The drivers on the other hand are all but completely gone. Of the 6 per cab only 3 remain, and they aren't anything I'd consider attempting to match.
These guys need brand new drivers. But before I spend time and money on something that was old and free, I would love everyone's opinion. Would it be worth it? I've never previously seen a line array implemented like this. Is this horn arrangement a failed concept of the past, or could loading these cabs with drivers be worthwhile?
As you can see, the drivers are mounted on a removable panel. It would be simple to create a new panel for new drivers.
I was thinking cheap, like these: Celestion Neodymium 5" Full-Range Woofer 4 Ohm
The throat of the horn is 5.5" by 38.5"
The enclosure has an internal volume of roughly 3.2 cubic feet.
Attachments
Wow, that looks like a good deal on a neo driver. Is that a clearance price? The SPL is more representative of a home audio driver, tho the array should give you something close to 100dB. How do you plan to wire them? Two 3-driver banks of series, then the 2 banks in parallel? Other options appear to yield a rather low impedance.
Yeah, that's right--They already sold out of the 8ohm version. These will only last until the current stock runs out, but as far as deals go it looks amazing!
Yes, I was thinking either that or 3 groups of two each in parallel, then wire the 3 parallel groups in series with each other. Both configurations should yield a nominal 6ohm load if I'm not mistaken, but I'm not sure which would be best musically or if it even matters at all.
WinISD calculated an EBP of 137.7, so it looks like porting is desirable. The drivers only have an xmax of 1.13mm, so anything to reduce excursion sounds like a winner. But at the same time, a picture is worth 1000 words.
Green = 6 drivers ported in the 3.2 cubic foot box, port length no problem
Yellow = 6 drivers sealed in the 3.2 cubic foot box. Too high of an xo point.
Red = 6 drivers ported in calculated 0.072 cubic foot box, port length a problem.
I guess I could go with the green and apply a steep high pass at 100hz?
But I'm not sure how well these drivers preform in a horn, or if I have an unrealistic concern. Maybe specific horn design only matters a lot in LF applications?
Yes, I was thinking either that or 3 groups of two each in parallel, then wire the 3 parallel groups in series with each other. Both configurations should yield a nominal 6ohm load if I'm not mistaken, but I'm not sure which would be best musically or if it even matters at all.
WinISD calculated an EBP of 137.7, so it looks like porting is desirable. The drivers only have an xmax of 1.13mm, so anything to reduce excursion sounds like a winner. But at the same time, a picture is worth 1000 words.
Green = 6 drivers ported in the 3.2 cubic foot box, port length no problem
Yellow = 6 drivers sealed in the 3.2 cubic foot box. Too high of an xo point.
Red = 6 drivers ported in calculated 0.072 cubic foot box, port length a problem.
I guess I could go with the green and apply a steep high pass at 100hz?
But I'm not sure how well these drivers preform in a horn, or if I have an unrealistic concern. Maybe specific horn design only matters a lot in LF applications?
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Acoustic is/was a manufacturer of not-so-wonderful guitar/PA stuff.
This is another example. Those are cheap automotive type drivers.
The horn loading is not going to be of much value, and there will not be much loading. It's mostly for looks.
Imo, if you want to use those Celestion drivers, just build urself something with them. A line array will work rather nicely, although you will need tweeters.
Skip the horn loading of this sort.
This is another example. Those are cheap automotive type drivers.
The horn loading is not going to be of much value, and there will not be much loading. It's mostly for looks.
Imo, if you want to use those Celestion drivers, just build urself something with them. A line array will work rather nicely, although you will need tweeters.
Skip the horn loading of this sort.
bear: I'm rather fond of Acoustic's vintage bass guitar gear, especially the 301 folded horn cabinet & a couple of their bass amps. Most of it is just getting so old...!
twin: That huge response hump in the Green alignment looks problematic. How do you intend to use the refurbished cabinets? Home or pro audio? With subwoofer(s)?
twin: That huge response hump in the Green alignment looks problematic. How do you intend to use the refurbished cabinets? Home or pro audio? With subwoofer(s)?
If you refurbish them, forget the 5"drivers, use the original 6x9" size.
You need old (think 80's Jensen) dual cone car speakers there, which will be more efficient.
Or the modern Chinese reincarnation.
Think $15 per speaker or so.
And forget hornresp 😉 not much applicable here.
Like bear said, those are very outdated speakers, think 40 y.o. (no kidding).
Probably 3.2 ohms per speaker, 3 in series gives you nominal 10 ohms, 2 such series in parallel give you 5 ohms per cabinet, feel free to call that 4 ohms nominal.
The PA head driving it probably was 200W into 2 ohms 😱 ... wonders of designing around 2N3055.
Today you would use 2 of 100/4 power amps, one per cabinet.
Way too large and heavy for portability, they might provide a cool Lo Fi type of sound in a Club.
I have listened to far worse speakers 🙁
EDIT: you may choose one of these:
http://www.parts-express.com/grs-69as-4-6-x-9-dual-cone-replacement-car-speaker-4-ohm--292-459
or
http://www.parts-express.com/boss-brs69-6x9-dual-cone-replacement-speaker--265-380
You need old (think 80's Jensen) dual cone car speakers there, which will be more efficient.
Or the modern Chinese reincarnation.
Think $15 per speaker or so.
And forget hornresp 😉 not much applicable here.
Like bear said, those are very outdated speakers, think 40 y.o. (no kidding).
Probably 3.2 ohms per speaker, 3 in series gives you nominal 10 ohms, 2 such series in parallel give you 5 ohms per cabinet, feel free to call that 4 ohms nominal.
The PA head driving it probably was 200W into 2 ohms 😱 ... wonders of designing around 2N3055.
Today you would use 2 of 100/4 power amps, one per cabinet.
Way too large and heavy for portability, they might provide a cool Lo Fi type of sound in a Club.
I have listened to far worse speakers 🙁
EDIT: you may choose one of these:
http://www.parts-express.com/grs-69as-4-6-x-9-dual-cone-replacement-car-speaker-4-ohm--292-459
or
http://www.parts-express.com/boss-brs69-6x9-dual-cone-replacement-speaker--265-380
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bear: You pretty much relayed all of my concerns about this project. Thanks for the confirming that, bad news is better sooner than later.
Cuppa Joe: Good question. I should be intentional with it's use, otherwise I'll end up wasting money. If they turned out well enough, I was considering donating them to my church, who currently uses another pointlessly (and miss-matched) horn loaded single 15" eminence/separate peavy tweet cab as their mains. I figured it wouldn't be much of a stretch to surpass that performance point. I did convince them to get a 2x4 balanced miniDSP which improved the sound (They were using no crossovers on the eminence). I could use that miniDSP to avoid the green response hump. It would be crossed to a sub.
But if it turned out poorly, I guess I'd have extra drivers lying about.
JMFahey: Although I'd intend to use these in live sound reinforcement or not at all, 6"x9" is intriguing because: The originals were mounted horizontally. If I created a new mounting panel and mounted those GRS drivers vertically, I would only need to buy 4 per cab and the total cost would be less than $70.
I don't want to just drop in new 6"x9" drivers as-is. I think that would be a waste of money. Not so much into refurbishing as remodeling. It could be fun! 🙂
Edit: Oow, comb filtering would be happening at >1500hz with 9" spacing.
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In either case, I intend to cross to a tweeter. Building a minimalist separate cab to sit on top would probably be the best bet, but I did entertain the idea of mounting a horn within the horn (for simplicity).
Cuppa Joe: Good question. I should be intentional with it's use, otherwise I'll end up wasting money. If they turned out well enough, I was considering donating them to my church, who currently uses another pointlessly (and miss-matched) horn loaded single 15" eminence/separate peavy tweet cab as their mains. I figured it wouldn't be much of a stretch to surpass that performance point. I did convince them to get a 2x4 balanced miniDSP which improved the sound (They were using no crossovers on the eminence). I could use that miniDSP to avoid the green response hump. It would be crossed to a sub.
But if it turned out poorly, I guess I'd have extra drivers lying about.
JMFahey: Although I'd intend to use these in live sound reinforcement or not at all, 6"x9" is intriguing because: The originals were mounted horizontally. If I created a new mounting panel and mounted those GRS drivers vertically, I would only need to buy 4 per cab and the total cost would be less than $70.
I don't want to just drop in new 6"x9" drivers as-is. I think that would be a waste of money. Not so much into refurbishing as remodeling. It could be fun! 🙂
Edit: Oow, comb filtering would be happening at >1500hz with 9" spacing.
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In either case, I intend to cross to a tweeter. Building a minimalist separate cab to sit on top would probably be the best bet, but I did entertain the idea of mounting a horn within the horn (for simplicity).
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These are not going to be terribly useful for live sound reinforcement, not even with ur pick-up band in the basement, imho.
Put'em on Craigslist.
Eminence KY? Would guess you could find some Eminence drivers around those parts without too much trouble? 😀
Go another way for PA. All sorts of options
Put'em on Craigslist.
Eminence KY? Would guess you could find some Eminence drivers around those parts without too much trouble? 😀
Go another way for PA. All sorts of options
There is probably a better use for the $120. One single Delta Pro 12-450, perhaps? Can get those somewhere near Eminence, Ky.
sorry just the cheapest 6x9's i could think of...
how would you shoehorn a 12 into those boxes??
how would you shoehorn a 12 into those boxes??
Advice duly noted.
Haha that's true actually! Eminence HQ is just a skip away.
There's actually nothing wrong at all with the Eminence driver currently being employed. To my understanding they were purchased directly from Eminence. It really is a great driver, it's just being employed wrong. I don't remember which line it's from.
turk: That's good to know. The Boss is a superior driver.
wg_ski: Well you all have convinced me now.
turk: He meant to imply discard the vintage cab and build a new enclosure.
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Thank you guys for keeping me steered clear of apparent disappointment.
Hopefully one day before too long we'll have the opportunity to upgrade the church's speakers. I have a few interesting ideas in mind, I think they'll give me the opportunity to build them a completely custom set. I'll defiantly have some questions and need some second opinions if they let me do something fancy, so when the time comes I'll post an interesting thread!
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