After watching a fair few videos and not doing enough technical reading I have come up with an idea for a 3 way monitor design, sorta based on a series that finished abruptly at stage 3 of 5 on the Kirby meets audio youtube channel.
Driver selection (based somewhat on what's available in Australia and cost with an simple requirement to keep them all the same make).
Dayton:
RS225P-8A Woofer Dayton Audio - RS225P-8A 8" Reference Paper Woofer 8 Ohm
RS100P-8 Mid woofer Dayton Audio - RS100P-8 4" Reference Paper Midwoofer 8 Ohm
ND25FA-4 Tweeter https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1196/nd25fa-4-1-soft-dome-neodymium-tweeter-4-ohm
Crossover design using xsim (vituixcad has too steep a learning curve)
An overall cabinet size of 33.1cm x 42cm x 25.4cm (24.15litres)
I'll be making a pair.
I actually think I'm overcomplicating this as a three way and could get rid of the woofer and put in a bigger mid woofer (or two) and a simpler two way system, but what do I know?
Any constructive inputs would be appreciated
Thanks.
Driver selection (based somewhat on what's available in Australia and cost with an simple requirement to keep them all the same make).
Dayton:
RS225P-8A Woofer Dayton Audio - RS225P-8A 8" Reference Paper Woofer 8 Ohm
RS100P-8 Mid woofer Dayton Audio - RS100P-8 4" Reference Paper Midwoofer 8 Ohm
ND25FA-4 Tweeter https://www.daytonaudio.com/product/1196/nd25fa-4-1-soft-dome-neodymium-tweeter-4-ohm
Crossover design using xsim (vituixcad has too steep a learning curve)
An overall cabinet size of 33.1cm x 42cm x 25.4cm (24.15litres)
I'll be making a pair.
I actually think I'm overcomplicating this as a three way and could get rid of the woofer and put in a bigger mid woofer (or two) and a simpler two way system, but what do I know?
Any constructive inputs would be appreciated
Thanks.
Attachments
What are your crossover frequencies? Crossing over woofer-mid at the baffle step frequency may even out those RS225 bumps around 1KHz
the choice of drivers seems ok, but the xover is not suitable at all.
22uF will kill the tweeter,. it also has to be reduced in level by ca 6dB
The midrange has no elements to limit the treble, will interfere with the tweeter.
The bass is 6dB down because of the baffle step.
my suggestion woofer to mid in baffle step(550Hz @25cm width)
mid to high 2k
22uF will kill the tweeter,. it also has to be reduced in level by ca 6dB
The midrange has no elements to limit the treble, will interfere with the tweeter.
The bass is 6dB down because of the baffle step.
my suggestion woofer to mid in baffle step(550Hz @25cm width)
mid to high 2k
The tweeter needs at least a 2 element XO and a quick look say at around 3500/4k. 3500 would be preferable due to beaming issues but I'd be happy with 4k to protect the tweeter, so crossing the woofer around the 300/400 mark which is approximately baffle step for the box you have stated. Call it 350 to 3500 and that's a nice MR spread.
So 5.6uF on the tweeter and somewhere around 3.5mH to ground might work
So 5.6uF on the tweeter and somewhere around 3.5mH to ground might work
I think trying to design a 3-way with these drivers but without some knowledge about crossovers or/and a way to acquire raw driver acoustic output in the desired cabinet is (way) too challenging. And a bit of a waste of effort.
There are a lot of designs out there, even with some of the drivers you picked. Use one of those. Or be prepared to learn and pull out some cash for a rudimentary measuring set.
Come to think of it: you gave the solution yourself: start with a 2-way, with the 180mmm Dayton paper cone. That is a fine driver too, the crossover would be fairly standard (but not off the shelf) and not too complicated (or expensive).
One more remark: if you can get hold of Vifa's excellent NE speakers and some other Dayton units, build this!
There are a lot of designs out there, even with some of the drivers you picked. Use one of those. Or be prepared to learn and pull out some cash for a rudimentary measuring set.
Come to think of it: you gave the solution yourself: start with a 2-way, with the 180mmm Dayton paper cone. That is a fine driver too, the crossover would be fairly standard (but not off the shelf) and not too complicated (or expensive).
One more remark: if you can get hold of Vifa's excellent NE speakers and some other Dayton units, build this!
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A few questions to help us guide you:
by 'monitor', do you mean a smallish box, or speakers for use in a small space, or 'revealing' speakers which will be used for checking recordings;
are you set on a 3 way, or particular size cabinet;
vented or sealed?
budget?
room size, listening preferences (volume and types of music)?
A 3 way crossover is hard to get right and usually uses a lot of parts because the mid driver usually needs high and low pass filters. Those parts values tend to be high, which makes them costly.
If you want a small, accurate sounding monitor and you don't want to play too loud, you could check out Paul Carmody's 'Hitmaker' monitors. The drivers (Dayton DA175, Vifa BC25TG tweeter) are available from Wagner Electronics in Sydney.
As suggested above, a two way with a Dayton RS180P could also work for you, it's a really nice driver and looks good too. Plenty of tweeter options, for example, Parts Express has a DIY speaker kit called the "Samba" which uses the RS180P and RST28F tweeter, details on PE website. Cabinet is smallish, too.
There are some two ways which use the RS225 but they use a larger cabinet than you've described. Some projects use a tweeter which can be crossed at about 1500Hz, others use a full range Vifa or Scanspeak driver and much lower crossover point.
Here are a couple of examples, I haven't heard either and am not recommending them:
"Inlaws" RS225/TG9/SB19 3-way -
Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor (a long thread which, among other things, discusses using a cheaper Vifa TC9 instead of the Scanspeak)
If you use an existing and proved project which has been widely built and widely reviewed, you should like the result. If you try to design your first speaker as a 3 way without experience or measuring equipment, you may be disappointed.
Geoff
by 'monitor', do you mean a smallish box, or speakers for use in a small space, or 'revealing' speakers which will be used for checking recordings;
are you set on a 3 way, or particular size cabinet;
vented or sealed?
budget?
room size, listening preferences (volume and types of music)?
A 3 way crossover is hard to get right and usually uses a lot of parts because the mid driver usually needs high and low pass filters. Those parts values tend to be high, which makes them costly.
If you want a small, accurate sounding monitor and you don't want to play too loud, you could check out Paul Carmody's 'Hitmaker' monitors. The drivers (Dayton DA175, Vifa BC25TG tweeter) are available from Wagner Electronics in Sydney.
As suggested above, a two way with a Dayton RS180P could also work for you, it's a really nice driver and looks good too. Plenty of tweeter options, for example, Parts Express has a DIY speaker kit called the "Samba" which uses the RS180P and RST28F tweeter, details on PE website. Cabinet is smallish, too.
There are some two ways which use the RS225 but they use a larger cabinet than you've described. Some projects use a tweeter which can be crossed at about 1500Hz, others use a full range Vifa or Scanspeak driver and much lower crossover point.
Here are a couple of examples, I haven't heard either and am not recommending them:
"Inlaws" RS225/TG9/SB19 3-way -
Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor (a long thread which, among other things, discusses using a cheaper Vifa TC9 instead of the Scanspeak)
If you use an existing and proved project which has been widely built and widely reviewed, you should like the result. If you try to design your first speaker as a 3 way without experience or measuring equipment, you may be disappointed.
Geoff
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Awesome responses and thank you all for your time and assistance, there are a fair few avenues for thought and a few questions that have been posed so I'll give them all a bit of a looking at.
Have you read Troels pages on his "Classic" 3-ways?
SEAS-3-Way-Classic
I can't afford to build many of his designs but I do agree with his conjecture that 4" mids are the sweet spot for small boxes.
Personally I'd be using that small box and going sealed and add in a good powered subwoofer at a later date. A small sub amp with DSP is almost cheaper than a decent low frequency passive crossover and much more effective.
Yes a 3-Way XO is more expensive than a 2-Way but done well they sound much better if using a good midrange driver.
My current very Low-Fi 3-Way for my daughters party speakers have at least $100- invested in the midrange & tweeter XO and this is on a set of drivers worth around $80- total so not cheap to do well
SEAS-3-Way-Classic
I can't afford to build many of his designs but I do agree with his conjecture that 4" mids are the sweet spot for small boxes.
Personally I'd be using that small box and going sealed and add in a good powered subwoofer at a later date. A small sub amp with DSP is almost cheaper than a decent low frequency passive crossover and much more effective.
Yes a 3-Way XO is more expensive than a 2-Way but done well they sound much better if using a good midrange driver.
My current very Low-Fi 3-Way for my daughters party speakers have at least $100- invested in the midrange & tweeter XO and this is on a set of drivers worth around $80- total so not cheap to do well
Same may apply to the 2" mids, though there is less choice... Indeed I found only Whisper by Aurasound
😛
Never met or used a 50mm dome that was happy at 300Hz, but as a high power low tweeter they work for me. I'm not that good a builder, others more skilled seem to able to get them to work.