3-way TQWT 10”/6”/1” - Seas ; Satori - need woofer advise!!
Hello everybody,
I am currently trying to design my first DIY speaker, a 3-way 10/12”- 6”- 1” and hesitate between 2 options, described below.
I would greatly appreciate if you have any advice on drivers to be used, as this is the biggest question mark for me before I pull the trigger.
I have a budget of ~800EUROS for the complete stereo driver set. (flexible)
So far, I plan to use:
OPTION 1:
Pros:
_________________________________________________________
OPTION 2: use of High efficiency woofer:
Pros:
OPTION 3 would be to go active on the woofer, allowing me to correct room response, but I do not plan this yet (messy setup, potential quality loss in RCA cables, extra cost)
I have access to an acoustic lab with Microphone, DATS v2, Keyence Laser for membrane measurement, Klippel, and even a vibrometer to fine-tune the box if needed. (Lucky me 🙂)
I plan to keep the speakers in the lab, and fine-tune them until I optimized all variables that could impact the performances. (I plan to move from apartment to home within a year, so not fine-tune for the room)
By the way, if somebody is interested in reusing my optimized design later on, I could share everything I have. Even better: if somebody would like us to do this build together, we could order all components twice and have better pairing of the drivers/cross over components.
I had a look at many DIY sites, especially Troels, and the Jenzen CA was first on my list for a while.
Hello everybody,
I am currently trying to design my first DIY speaker, a 3-way 10/12”- 6”- 1” and hesitate between 2 options, described below.
I would greatly appreciate if you have any advice on drivers to be used, as this is the biggest question mark for me before I pull the trigger.
I have a budget of ~800EUROS for the complete stereo driver set. (flexible)
So far, I plan to use:
- An LR2 cross-over: W – ~300hz – M – 2600Hz – T. Using quality components (to be fine-tuned).
- Two separate cabs for mid and woofer in 22mm Ply Wood/ MDF + bracing.
- M: ~15L closed box.
- W: ~65L Transmission Line. (offset ~0.3 ; 1:6 ratio)
- Stepped Mid baffle to have time alignment between Mid and Tweeter.
OPTION 1:
- Tweeter: SB29RDCN-C000-4 (also contemplating TW29RN-B-8 or SB26ADC-C000-4, even D3004/660000)
- Mid: Satori MR16P-8
- Woofer: Seas CA26RFX H1305-08
OR, ordered by preference:
- 26W/8534G00 (cheap, great on paper, but 3rd HD quickly raises above 200Hz)
- 10" SB29NRX75-6
- 12” SB34NRX75-6 (low impedance and high Vas of 260L)
- 12” SB34NRXL75-8 (expensive, large outter diameter, too sensitive compared to mid?)
- DC300-8 12" (I have not seen its HD, a bit heavy for my taste)
- 8ohms nominal amplifier-friendly impedance
- Woofer’s Qts of 0.34 is a good fit for transmission line.
- CA26RFX woofer will be the weakest element of the chain. A shame since I really plan to fine-tune the transmission line.
- SB29RDCN tweeter might have a bit high Harmonic Distortion for my taste, but I never tried it.
_________________________________________________________
OPTION 2: use of High efficiency woofer:
- Tweeter:SB29RDCN-C000-4 (also contemplating TW29RN-B-8)
- - Mid: Satori MR16P-4
- - Woofer: Dayton 12” PA310-8
OR..?
Pros:
- Great sensitivity, 92-93dB average
- Pro woofer brings fast, articulated BASS
- Woofer might not go low enough
- Difficulty to match Mid and Woofer sensitivity.
OPTION 3 would be to go active on the woofer, allowing me to correct room response, but I do not plan this yet (messy setup, potential quality loss in RCA cables, extra cost)
I have access to an acoustic lab with Microphone, DATS v2, Keyence Laser for membrane measurement, Klippel, and even a vibrometer to fine-tune the box if needed. (Lucky me 🙂)
I plan to keep the speakers in the lab, and fine-tune them until I optimized all variables that could impact the performances. (I plan to move from apartment to home within a year, so not fine-tune for the room)
By the way, if somebody is interested in reusing my optimized design later on, I could share everything I have. Even better: if somebody would like us to do this build together, we could order all components twice and have better pairing of the drivers/cross over components.
I had a look at many DIY sites, especially Troels, and the Jenzen CA was first on my list for a while.
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The Satori MR16P-4 has high enough sensitivity to mate with most 12" pro woofer after baffle step loss included.
Even more so, if you calculate with the slight pass-band boost of the mid-range, mounted on the typical rectangular baffle.
Even more so, if you calculate with the slight pass-band boost of the mid-range, mounted on the typical rectangular baffle.
Right Brain Genius?
Since you want physical time alignment between the tweeter and midrange with LR2/LR2, consider a low diffraction sphere as used by B&W. Ikea Bowls are common in the USA.
With a passive LR2 crossover using AWG-15 inductor on the midrange, a 4-ohm high efficiency design will produce greater details and dynamics. Most amplifiers deliver significantly higher transient current into a 4-ohm load.
1" SB26STCN-C000-4 44mm diameter LR2/LR2 at 2000Hz
6" Satori MR16P-4 Nelson Pass: "Very impressed with the sound of this midrange."
12” SB34NRXL75-8 very musical = worth the extra cost. 91db sensitivity
Since you want physical time alignment between the tweeter and midrange with LR2/LR2, consider a low diffraction sphere as used by B&W. Ikea Bowls are common in the USA.
With a passive LR2 crossover using AWG-15 inductor on the midrange, a 4-ohm high efficiency design will produce greater details and dynamics. Most amplifiers deliver significantly higher transient current into a 4-ohm load.
1" SB26STCN-C000-4 44mm diameter LR2/LR2 at 2000Hz
6" Satori MR16P-4 Nelson Pass: "Very impressed with the sound of this midrange."
12” SB34NRXL75-8 very musical = worth the extra cost. 91db sensitivity
Attachments
AS above - but replace the 12" with 2 * 9.5" SBA Satori WO24P-4 woofers to get same SD. Same F3 ported but potentially much lower bass distortion than the SB34 (I am comparing the non long-throw version here).
Hi all,
Thanks for the feedback. 😀😀
I actually tend to be more left-brained 🙂
Going for 2*10"might be appealing but this quickly becomes out of budget, and decreases the impedance as well in low frequencies.
Good to hear that 12” SB34NRXL75-8 is musical. Only downside is its large outer diameter, it will require a very large box, I'd have to check WAF first.
Isn't the 91dB sensitivity of the woofer going to be too low compared to mid's 92dB if I factor in the Baffle Step loss?
This Baffle Step Loss would most likely be happening from below 300Hz as a -6dB Low shelving for a 40cm wide front baffle. Then it would make sense to target much higher woofer sensitivity as I will cross it around 300Hz (or 8ohms Mid with lower sens), correct?
Thanks for the feedback. 😀😀
I actually tend to be more left-brained 🙂
Going for 2*10"might be appealing but this quickly becomes out of budget, and decreases the impedance as well in low frequencies.
Good to hear that 12” SB34NRXL75-8 is musical. Only downside is its large outer diameter, it will require a very large box, I'd have to check WAF first.
Isn't the 91dB sensitivity of the woofer going to be too low compared to mid's 92dB if I factor in the Baffle Step loss?
This Baffle Step Loss would most likely be happening from below 300Hz as a -6dB Low shelving for a 40cm wide front baffle. Then it would make sense to target much higher woofer sensitivity as I will cross it around 300Hz (or 8ohms Mid with lower sens), correct?
Yes, with the SB34 you need to attenuate the mid at least 3-4dB or probably more or get a higher sensitivity woofer(s). But it depends on your room acoustics and speaker placement too.
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Budget = fair enough.
For impedance - go for 2 * 4 ohm versions in series. You still halve your excursion and unless you are lacking in amplifier power or have a seriously large space, that's ok.
Going for 2 drivers in parallel might screw up with the Qts and the damping factor or each drivers, I would rather avoid that.
Do you know any other musical woofer (fs<35Hz ; Qts<0.4 ; Qms>3 ; Sensitivity >90dB), 10 or 12", that would be <250EUROS?
Do you observe a correlation between woofer musicality and Moving Mass/sensitivity?
Maybe there are more relevant parameters to watch?
Do you know any other musical woofer (fs<35Hz ; Qts<0.4 ; Qms>3 ; Sensitivity >90dB), 10 or 12", that would be <250EUROS?
Do you observe a correlation between woofer musicality and Moving Mass/sensitivity?
Maybe there are more relevant parameters to watch?
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Do you mean in series? I would try to avoid series woofer connection too.
Maybe two Peerless 830869 in parallel? Ok, this is a 8" woofer and you get a 4 Ohm nominal load, but who cares? No problem with a normal solid state amp.
With a setup like this, you get a high sensitivity system, more Sd than a 10" woofer, and the 830869 works good from 25l/driver vented.
Peerless by Tymphany 830869 8" Nomex Cone HDS Woofer
Maybe two Peerless 830869 in parallel? Ok, this is a 8" woofer and you get a 4 Ohm nominal load, but who cares? No problem with a normal solid state amp.
With a setup like this, you get a high sensitivity system, more Sd than a 10" woofer, and the 830869 works good from 25l/driver vented.
Peerless by Tymphany 830869 8" Nomex Cone HDS Woofer
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Indeed I might go 2x 8"or 2x10" if WAF fails on the 12".
I am a bit concerned on how 2 drivers will interact in a transmission line, as each will have different offset and might screw with the line resonances.
Anyone has experience with such design?
I am a bit concerned on how 2 drivers will interact in a transmission line, as each will have different offset and might screw with the line resonances.
Anyone has experience with such design?
I am using the SB Satori MR16P-4 and think it is one of the best sounding drivers available regardless of design type/materials or price range. It can go quite low and quite high both in frequency range so mix and match with almost any tweeter and any woofer is possible.
My advice on tweeter is forget the SB29RDNC and go straight for the Satori if you like SB tweeters. The Neo version just doesn't sound good and crossing it below 3k turns things into a disaster, making voices sound strained, lacking low level details, making things sound death. Also other fact that some parameters, especially Fs are way higher than specs in my case 805Hz and 870Hz. Way overpriced for what they are.
Also this post confirms this
Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum
Also Javad showed his Satori 3way at Axpona, a collaboration with Jeff Bagby and plans supposedly be available to the public. People commented that it was a very good sounding project.
Also this post confirms this
Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video Discussion Forum
Also Javad showed his Satori 3way at Axpona, a collaboration with Jeff Bagby and plans supposedly be available to the public. People commented that it was a very good sounding project.
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Thanks for the advice!
Would you extrapolate by saying that, despite low Fres, if a tweeter has high THD below 2k, it will result in high distortion when all content'distortion below 2k adds up in real life?
Right now this project is on hold, as I hesitate between building my own, or buying. Biggest constraint would be time.
At least I got a top DAC and AMP, now I just need to get the Speaker!
Would you extrapolate by saying that, despite low Fres, if a tweeter has high THD below 2k, it will result in high distortion when all content'distortion below 2k adds up in real life?
Right now this project is on hold, as I hesitate between building my own, or buying. Biggest constraint would be time.
At least I got a top DAC and AMP, now I just need to get the Speaker!
I think there's more than harmonic distortions, because intermodulation distortions also influence sound. I tried this and that and couldn't make the SB29 ring dome to sing with 1.7-2kHz LR4. It is listenable, smooth, but lacks comparing to full size dome which seems to be better, perhaps because of lower distortions in 2k area.
Thanks all for the advices.
Fast forward 1 year later, after much research, thanks to the covid I kicked off this project.
Since posts on forums were a great source of information for me, I thought I would share a status update:
- 12" SB34NRXL75-8 in a 95L transmission line.
- 6.5" MR16P-8 in a closed box
- 1" R2604 83200 in the WG300 waveguide.
Cross overs ~ 250Hz and 2.2kHz.
Now, tweeter might be the weakest component of the bunch, which is where the WG300 really makes things easy to try other tweeters without changing the front bafle.
The WG300 also greatly improves sensitivity/distortion/directivity below 4kHz, which should mate well with MR16P.
Transmission line properties:
Volume 95L
Ratio 1:6.3
Driver offset 0.21
Line length 1.87m
Diffraction is, I think, the only design point i would improve if I could go back in time, by offsetting both mids and tweeter to a side.
I have seen some poeple getting good improvements by using some foam on the front bafle close to the drivers. I might give it a try.
I attached a quick cross over draft (not my measurements) and, more exciting, a screenshot comparing woofer and transmission line's port between Hornresp simulation and real measurement (with litle to no damping here).
Happy to see a close match 🙂
Now I ll make some proper measurements to design the final cross over.
Fast forward 1 year later, after much research, thanks to the covid I kicked off this project.
Since posts on forums were a great source of information for me, I thought I would share a status update:
- 12" SB34NRXL75-8 in a 95L transmission line.
- 6.5" MR16P-8 in a closed box
- 1" R2604 83200 in the WG300 waveguide.
Cross overs ~ 250Hz and 2.2kHz.
Now, tweeter might be the weakest component of the bunch, which is where the WG300 really makes things easy to try other tweeters without changing the front bafle.
The WG300 also greatly improves sensitivity/distortion/directivity below 4kHz, which should mate well with MR16P.
Transmission line properties:
Volume 95L
Ratio 1:6.3
Driver offset 0.21
Line length 1.87m
Diffraction is, I think, the only design point i would improve if I could go back in time, by offsetting both mids and tweeter to a side.
I have seen some poeple getting good improvements by using some foam on the front bafle close to the drivers. I might give it a try.
I attached a quick cross over draft (not my measurements) and, more exciting, a screenshot comparing woofer and transmission line's port between Hornresp simulation and real measurement (with litle to no damping here).
Happy to see a close match 🙂
Now I ll make some proper measurements to design the final cross over.
Attachments
I have the SB29NRX75-6 and the MR16P-4 both in my 3 1/2 way with sub....
You may want read up up on what I have to say about these and my experiences. I think you will get better results with two 8 or 9 inch woofers, then a 5 inch mid. It depends on musical tastes of course but also power handling and max SPL. The SB29 does great at low bass; the MR16 does great at mids. I couldn't get them to match up together at all though for my power requirements....
Hi all,
I've spent some time measuring and listening to my DIY "Saisho" against the Neumann KH310 studio monitor 3 way speaker setup in an acoustically treated lab.
See the REW measurements in:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ssUXULXh32tTUE7UA
See below some more details on the tuning of the transmission line:
And here's the latest "poster":
I've spent some time measuring and listening to my DIY "Saisho" against the Neumann KH310 studio monitor 3 way speaker setup in an acoustically treated lab.
See the REW measurements in:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ssUXULXh32tTUE7UA
See below some more details on the tuning of the transmission line:
And here's the latest "poster":
