After hatching a plan to make a lite version of a Burning Man Sound Camp in Vermont, I am getting to point where choosing speakers and amps by budget are no longer my big questions. We are hoping to have a system that plays DJ house music outdoors with crushing bass and pretty good sound. Knee buckling bass with clear highs, so that one could have a semi-conversation. Our general intention is to go with great subs, and upgrade amps, as money allows, and try to start with some really good small line arrays or other mid-highs, and then get more of those as money allows.
Our plan is have 10x Cubo 21" subs with B&C neo drivers mounted facing out on the passenger side of our Frightliner based 2006 Thomas school-bus (the one with the modern nose, whoops). We've build two Cubo 21" subs, one with nice cheap plywood and the second with Baltic Birch as recommended.
We've been testing the first sub with a Behringer EP4000 which is adequate, but for the $329 price, allows us to buy 10x for the price of a Crown and a half. If you have other amp suggestions, I am all ears. We are going to test a Seismic Audio Magnitude3600 ($649) as well, just to see, as I know they aren't supposed to be high quality.
We have a DBX 260 as a crossover, though I don't know how to use sub-harmonics and other settings yet. I'd be open to suggestions of a processor to use that is as good (or good enough for us) that doesn't need to be plugged in.
The equipment closer to the power source is what I really have no idea about. We have a 8 or so plug surge protector (maybe it conditions power too?) in a rack that I was given.
-If we have a bunch of amps connected to the surge protector/conditioner, does it overload the unit? For instance if it is good for 10A, 115V * 10A = 1150W, so having two or more amplifiers nursing off this can't be that good. Or to the capacitors in the amps, really reduce the draw on the conditioner?
-At what point do we need another conditioner? Or even another 10A circuit from the panel. Currently when we have the 1x Cubo 21" and the EP4000 we dim the lights in office while "testing."
-For operating off a generator, how much system power will the generator actually supply? I've seen a Honda 2000W generator do a great job, but will it supply 2000W and is that enough for an actual 4000W Crown?
I believe Robot Heart (our inspiration, though we are going for a 1/4 scale version of their bus) is 125,000W - which must be at peak and it is powered off a 70kw generator.
-What other rack things do we need to think about to make this all work and sound good. Do we need a real 31 step EQ? Currently it's power -> surge/conditioner -> mixer -> driverack -> amps -> speakers
Thanks for helping!
Bill
802-598-6583
Our plan is have 10x Cubo 21" subs with B&C neo drivers mounted facing out on the passenger side of our Frightliner based 2006 Thomas school-bus (the one with the modern nose, whoops). We've build two Cubo 21" subs, one with nice cheap plywood and the second with Baltic Birch as recommended.
We've been testing the first sub with a Behringer EP4000 which is adequate, but for the $329 price, allows us to buy 10x for the price of a Crown and a half. If you have other amp suggestions, I am all ears. We are going to test a Seismic Audio Magnitude3600 ($649) as well, just to see, as I know they aren't supposed to be high quality.
We have a DBX 260 as a crossover, though I don't know how to use sub-harmonics and other settings yet. I'd be open to suggestions of a processor to use that is as good (or good enough for us) that doesn't need to be plugged in.
The equipment closer to the power source is what I really have no idea about. We have a 8 or so plug surge protector (maybe it conditions power too?) in a rack that I was given.
-If we have a bunch of amps connected to the surge protector/conditioner, does it overload the unit? For instance if it is good for 10A, 115V * 10A = 1150W, so having two or more amplifiers nursing off this can't be that good. Or to the capacitors in the amps, really reduce the draw on the conditioner?
-At what point do we need another conditioner? Or even another 10A circuit from the panel. Currently when we have the 1x Cubo 21" and the EP4000 we dim the lights in office while "testing."
-For operating off a generator, how much system power will the generator actually supply? I've seen a Honda 2000W generator do a great job, but will it supply 2000W and is that enough for an actual 4000W Crown?
I believe Robot Heart (our inspiration, though we are going for a 1/4 scale version of their bus) is 125,000W - which must be at peak and it is powered off a 70kw generator.
-What other rack things do we need to think about to make this all work and sound good. Do we need a real 31 step EQ? Currently it's power -> surge/conditioner -> mixer -> driverack -> amps -> speakers
Thanks for helping!
Bill
802-598-6583
First question: how many gigs will this system be used for, just this one?
For one gig, my immediate reaction would be to hire a pro sound company.
The questions you ask seem to me you are lacking in experience - please no offense intended. If you want to put your own system together, I still recommend a pro. Pay someone to come in and assist with design. They will know about available equipment, where you can and cannot cut corners. They will know about portable power. They will know how to configure your system, rht down to how the crossovers work. And so on, money well spent in my view.
For one gig, my immediate reaction would be to hire a pro sound company.
The questions you ask seem to me you are lacking in experience - please no offense intended. If you want to put your own system together, I still recommend a pro. Pay someone to come in and assist with design. They will know about available equipment, where you can and cannot cut corners. They will know about portable power. They will know how to configure your system, rht down to how the crossovers work. And so on, money well spent in my view.
Yes, totally inexperienced. The bus will be used weekly, eventually. Usually when talking with folks that do sound around where I live, once I get into the size of the system, or the mobile aspects, they start also sounding inexperienced, too. So, it seems like we may be reinventing the wheel on our own out here.
I used to design off-grid power systems and provide a diagram of what connected to what and a list of equipment. This isn't too far off. I'd like to find someone that has some experience with electronic music run off generators, too - if it matters.
My depth of experience is basically 3 or 4 versions of a bike stereo that ended with a 3 wheeled bike toting 2x18 and two strapped ampa and 2x JBL SF12M powered by two car batts, and a driverack. It worked great, but I understand this is another level.
I used to design off-grid power systems and provide a diagram of what connected to what and a list of equipment. This isn't too far off. I'd like to find someone that has some experience with electronic music run off generators, too - if it matters.
My depth of experience is basically 3 or 4 versions of a bike stereo that ended with a 3 wheeled bike toting 2x18 and two strapped ampa and 2x JBL SF12M powered by two car batts, and a driverack. It worked great, but I understand this is another level.
You may have to look beyond your immediate area. I am not talking about small guys renting out systems, I mean serious professional sound contractors.
You can call someone like Sweetwater who have knowledgeable sales engineers to help. They can suggest a proposal for you.
https://www.sweetwater.com/
You can call someone like Sweetwater who have knowledgeable sales engineers to help. They can suggest a proposal for you.
https://www.sweetwater.com/
Okay, here goes...
What you're looking for is basically a large-format system. You mention line arrays, but there's a lot of rigging involved there. Not something to be DIY'd unless you're very familiar with how the loading adds up and what your ratings are/should be. That will involve destructive testing of at least one box.
In your position, I'd go ground-stacked and point-source. Much easier to make it safe.
Look up a system like Nexo Alpha, and see how the professionals did a large-format point-source system. There are lots of ideas to be taken away from reading up on that particular system.
While you're building prototypes, try an Orthorn. I expect it'll drop a lot lower than the Cubo 21.
Amp suggestion - Behringer iNukes. The price per watt is hard to beat. Btw, the EP2500 is the same as an EP4000. They just rebadged based on "peak power", whatever that is.
Regarding power draw from generators...
- Music is usually quite peaky. You'll never light up all the clip lights and hold them there, but depending on the music, you might well light up the sub amps' clip lights and hold it there for a while.
- I have a 3-way system, tri-amped with an NU6k doing subs, another doing mids (both loaded down to 4ohm/ch) and an NU4-6k doing HF/mons. I played some dubstep and pushed the fader so the sub amp was touching the limiter (and staying there on sustained notes), and then looked at the power draw. Stayed less than 1.5KW, though the power factor meant that was around 2500VA. The test music was Truth - Devil's Hands. Not the most demanding of the sub amps, but it's no slouch.
So, for my system, I might get away with a Honda EU3000i, but it'd be working quite hard at times.
American power is weird, but I'll give it a go.
If you've gone for the 4ohm 21" drivers, then each NU6k is going to need about 2000VA if you drive hard, and you'll need that 5x over. So it's a 10KVA generator running flat-out just to run your subs. If you want to add lights or anything else (even other amplifiers for the rest of the range), I'd be looking for something in the 20KVA range.
If we ignore power factor and call it 20KVA = 20KW (ie, everything we spec will be a little oversized here on out. The generator is still correct), with 110v feeds you need >180A connectors and cables, or a bunch of smaller ones. This is the sort of cabling that houses run on. With a distro (buy one), you can break out to a bunch of smaller connectors, and run your power as needed.
Here's an example system for you to think about. It's something I worked on quite extensively, so I know the ins and outs.
Main feed was a 125A 240v three-phase from the wall (though it could easily have been from a generator). That went into a box that had 125-3 in and 9x 32A 240v single-phase outputs. Three on each phase. It was mounted in a rack, probably around 16U.
The main stacks were Nexo Alpha, and we put an amp rack behind each stack. They were all set up already, with cables running from the power socket to all the amplifiers. The monitors were SSE Betamax (think EV Deltamax, but with more steel) driven by a rack of Macrotechs, and sometimes we'd add extra subs.
Each amp rack had a 32A input, so we'd run out of the distro to each rack with a fairly heavy-duty cable.
For lighting/AV, we had some smaller distros that went from 32A down to a few 16A feeds. From the 16A feeds, we could break out to 13A sockets, which is what we have at home on the walls. Needed for laptops, DJ mixers, charging phones etc etc. The bigger stuff (16A, 32A, 125-3 etc) were all Ceeform, and all IP44 rated.
Every distro was professionally built and tested, and had the appropriate breakers on there. If you build one and it goes wrong and kills someone, you will be in a whole world of trouble. If you've got a professionally built one that's tested regularly that fails and kills someone, the company that built it is in trouble, but they probably have insurance. Cover your back.
I don't know if you guys have Ceeform connectors in America. If you do, use them. They're the right tool for the job. Very common in Europe.
An example of how I'd wire up your system...
- Generator with a 63A 3-phase output
- Run 63-3 cable to the distro (you might want to put the generator away from everything else - consider fumes, noise, drunk people, etc). The distro will probably have 3x 20A (which I know you guys use) outputs per phase, 9 in total.
- First phase runs 3x sub amps
- Second phase runs 2x sub amps, and maybe a kick amp or two if you're going for a 4-way system
- Third phase runs the rest of the amps, processor, DJ kit. Run extension leads to the DJ kit as needed, it'll be fine. Power draw on high-frequency amps is small, same for DJ kit.
If you wanted to add a lot of lights, you'll need a bigger generator. Save an entire phase for the lights, and split audio across the other two. LED lighting isn't too power hungry, though.
Make sure the 63-3 cable is specced well. Remember that each leg will be seeing of the order of a couple of ohms, across a mains supply. The 125-3 I mentioned earlier was about as thick as my wrist.
Chris
What you're looking for is basically a large-format system. You mention line arrays, but there's a lot of rigging involved there. Not something to be DIY'd unless you're very familiar with how the loading adds up and what your ratings are/should be. That will involve destructive testing of at least one box.
In your position, I'd go ground-stacked and point-source. Much easier to make it safe.
Look up a system like Nexo Alpha, and see how the professionals did a large-format point-source system. There are lots of ideas to be taken away from reading up on that particular system.
While you're building prototypes, try an Orthorn. I expect it'll drop a lot lower than the Cubo 21.
Amp suggestion - Behringer iNukes. The price per watt is hard to beat. Btw, the EP2500 is the same as an EP4000. They just rebadged based on "peak power", whatever that is.
Regarding power draw from generators...
- Music is usually quite peaky. You'll never light up all the clip lights and hold them there, but depending on the music, you might well light up the sub amps' clip lights and hold it there for a while.
- I have a 3-way system, tri-amped with an NU6k doing subs, another doing mids (both loaded down to 4ohm/ch) and an NU4-6k doing HF/mons. I played some dubstep and pushed the fader so the sub amp was touching the limiter (and staying there on sustained notes), and then looked at the power draw. Stayed less than 1.5KW, though the power factor meant that was around 2500VA. The test music was Truth - Devil's Hands. Not the most demanding of the sub amps, but it's no slouch.
So, for my system, I might get away with a Honda EU3000i, but it'd be working quite hard at times.
American power is weird, but I'll give it a go.
If you've gone for the 4ohm 21" drivers, then each NU6k is going to need about 2000VA if you drive hard, and you'll need that 5x over. So it's a 10KVA generator running flat-out just to run your subs. If you want to add lights or anything else (even other amplifiers for the rest of the range), I'd be looking for something in the 20KVA range.
If we ignore power factor and call it 20KVA = 20KW (ie, everything we spec will be a little oversized here on out. The generator is still correct), with 110v feeds you need >180A connectors and cables, or a bunch of smaller ones. This is the sort of cabling that houses run on. With a distro (buy one), you can break out to a bunch of smaller connectors, and run your power as needed.
Here's an example system for you to think about. It's something I worked on quite extensively, so I know the ins and outs.
Main feed was a 125A 240v three-phase from the wall (though it could easily have been from a generator). That went into a box that had 125-3 in and 9x 32A 240v single-phase outputs. Three on each phase. It was mounted in a rack, probably around 16U.
The main stacks were Nexo Alpha, and we put an amp rack behind each stack. They were all set up already, with cables running from the power socket to all the amplifiers. The monitors were SSE Betamax (think EV Deltamax, but with more steel) driven by a rack of Macrotechs, and sometimes we'd add extra subs.
Each amp rack had a 32A input, so we'd run out of the distro to each rack with a fairly heavy-duty cable.
For lighting/AV, we had some smaller distros that went from 32A down to a few 16A feeds. From the 16A feeds, we could break out to 13A sockets, which is what we have at home on the walls. Needed for laptops, DJ mixers, charging phones etc etc. The bigger stuff (16A, 32A, 125-3 etc) were all Ceeform, and all IP44 rated.
Every distro was professionally built and tested, and had the appropriate breakers on there. If you build one and it goes wrong and kills someone, you will be in a whole world of trouble. If you've got a professionally built one that's tested regularly that fails and kills someone, the company that built it is in trouble, but they probably have insurance. Cover your back.
I don't know if you guys have Ceeform connectors in America. If you do, use them. They're the right tool for the job. Very common in Europe.
An example of how I'd wire up your system...
- Generator with a 63A 3-phase output
- Run 63-3 cable to the distro (you might want to put the generator away from everything else - consider fumes, noise, drunk people, etc). The distro will probably have 3x 20A (which I know you guys use) outputs per phase, 9 in total.
- First phase runs 3x sub amps
- Second phase runs 2x sub amps, and maybe a kick amp or two if you're going for a 4-way system
- Third phase runs the rest of the amps, processor, DJ kit. Run extension leads to the DJ kit as needed, it'll be fine. Power draw on high-frequency amps is small, same for DJ kit.
If you wanted to add a lot of lights, you'll need a bigger generator. Save an entire phase for the lights, and split audio across the other two. LED lighting isn't too power hungry, though.
Make sure the 63-3 cable is specced well. Remember that each leg will be seeing of the order of a couple of ohms, across a mains supply. The 125-3 I mentioned earlier was about as thick as my wrist.
Chris
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