And... THIS is why I like diyaudio more!
In case any of you might have missed this article, here it is...
Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing? | Audioholics
Now, maybe I am jaded in thinking that you are supposed to get what you pay for, but this is ludicrous. Outright unbelievable.
How can a repackaged Denon with a more expensive transformer and a few more things like an optical out and a blanaced pre-out justify a $16,800 bump in price? Is this people getting swindled by big business and good marketing? Is that what we are paying for? A marketing campaign?
Give me something commercially available that I can open, fix the small problems myself, and is reasonably priced. Or give the instructions, the parts, and the tools and see what I can do with an extra $16,800. Now, maybe I can't get all those inputs and outputs in there and skip the HDMI altogether, but dang, I have better things to spend my money on.
$16,800. That is a half decent used minivan right there. A really good set of tubes... and chassis, capacitors, sockets, boards, wire, new soldering station, a couple Fluke RMS voltmeters, and a tube cage. A properly made Class A Pass Labs Amplifiers and pre (the money spent can be justified better there). A couple of vintage McIntosh MC30 amplifiers (those are the ones I really want). That is a lot and I would have a Denon too.
In case any of you might have missed this article, here it is...
Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing? | Audioholics
Now, maybe I am jaded in thinking that you are supposed to get what you pay for, but this is ludicrous. Outright unbelievable.
How can a repackaged Denon with a more expensive transformer and a few more things like an optical out and a blanaced pre-out justify a $16,800 bump in price? Is this people getting swindled by big business and good marketing? Is that what we are paying for? A marketing campaign?
Give me something commercially available that I can open, fix the small problems myself, and is reasonably priced. Or give the instructions, the parts, and the tools and see what I can do with an extra $16,800. Now, maybe I can't get all those inputs and outputs in there and skip the HDMI altogether, but dang, I have better things to spend my money on.
$16,800. That is a half decent used minivan right there. A really good set of tubes... and chassis, capacitors, sockets, boards, wire, new soldering station, a couple Fluke RMS voltmeters, and a tube cage. A properly made Class A Pass Labs Amplifiers and pre (the money spent can be justified better there). A couple of vintage McIntosh MC30 amplifiers (those are the ones I really want). That is a lot and I would have a Denon too.
If someone is willing to pay it, then you can be sure someone else will oblige and meet their needs by charging it. That is how fashion markets work.
Exactly the opposite. The big business (Denon) offers a good product at a reasonable price. The ripoff comes from Simaudio, a small business.
Than you SY. This is sort of what I was getting at. The SIM Audio one is nothing more than a Denon rebranded, repackaged, and slightly modified. But Simaudio is still big business (as in those $50 white t-shirts from a fashion house with a rap star's name on it).
In this case, Denon would be more honest than Sim who is doing the swindling.
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But at least with the fashion markets, they are early manufacturers of things like certain colours, prints, and designs. Later on (sometimes into 2 or 3 seasons later), the mass lower market retailers will copy those ideas, colours, and designs and sell it for less. The low market retailers are following far behind in the wake.
This amp is coming out at nearly the same time -- I don't think that Denon was lagging far behind Simaudio at all in this case. You would think that the regular consumer brands would be lagging a year or two behind the big names.
Either way, I am glad I am diy'ing audio.
Let the persons with 'Badge Fever' get overexcited overtheairbroadcast.
If I ever meet a buyer of the device posted, I'll say:
"Hey, I've got one like that, cost me $1,200."
Delivered with a Cheshire grin of course 😀😀😀
If I ever meet a buyer of the device posted, I'll say:
"Hey, I've got one like that, cost me $1,200."
Delivered with a Cheshire grin of course 😀😀😀
Eh. Who cares.
The Manufacturers involved can sell whatever they like to whomever they like at what price the market can bear.
Don't like it? Don't buy it. That's how things work. Or get the Denon and snicker at the people who buy the SimAudio. The purchasers of the SimAudio will snicker at those who bought the Denon.
Everybody's happy that way. 🙂 🙂 🙂
.
All that said, I like DIY better as well. 😀 😀 😀
The Manufacturers involved can sell whatever they like to whomever they like at what price the market can bear.
Don't like it? Don't buy it. That's how things work. Or get the Denon and snicker at the people who buy the SimAudio. The purchasers of the SimAudio will snicker at those who bought the Denon.
Everybody's happy that way. 🙂 🙂 🙂
.
All that said, I like DIY better as well. 😀 😀 😀
Their estimated yearly revenue is $2.5MM. Denon sells more than that in a week.
6L6
Don't get me wrong, I like the laws of Supply and Demand, and be the first to remind people of it. But only if it were for something unique and it being done without being a blatant copy. This is just the same thing only better power source and shinier chassis.
Whatever. I do chuckle at people when I hear their set ups and they say, "I got this Fat Man Tube Amp for my iPod and it sounds great!"
Don't get me wrong, I like the laws of Supply and Demand, and be the first to remind people of it. But only if it were for something unique and it being done without being a blatant copy. This is just the same thing only better power source and shinier chassis.
Whatever. I do chuckle at people when I hear their set ups and they say, "I got this Fat Man Tube Amp for my iPod and it sounds great!"
The audio fashion market is quite unlike the clothing fashion market. In clothing it may be true, to some extent, that higher prices bring higher quality. The mass market follows the high end, and produces cheaper copies. In audio the highest quality is likely to be found in the mid-market, which mainly (and quite rightly) ignores the so-called high end. The high end follows the mid and produces more expensive copies aimed mainly at those who hear with their wallet. There will always be people who need to spend money just to show that they can; they need to be convinced that they are buying things which the plebs cannot buy. It would not occur to them that the plebs might actually buy better stuff at a cheaper price.
Kicking a dead horse still, but I am wondering about fashion markets and audio markets.
Fashion markets don't sell on "magic" at least I don't know of anyone that sells by saying that there is "magic" in the pants and shirts they are selling. Audio markets (on the high end at least) seem to sell on a lot of BS.
What would happen if all that BS were removed and we had real scientific measurements and scientific proof? Would it mean that the ultra high end audio market that sells on "magic" begin to evaporate and the id-level audio manufacturers would have a chance to get gear out at a reasonable price?
Ahhhh... ignore me. I just get stuck on these things at times in hopes that people really do treat each other in a fair and honest manner.
Fashion markets don't sell on "magic" at least I don't know of anyone that sells by saying that there is "magic" in the pants and shirts they are selling. Audio markets (on the high end at least) seem to sell on a lot of BS.
What would happen if all that BS were removed and we had real scientific measurements and scientific proof? Would it mean that the ultra high end audio market that sells on "magic" begin to evaporate and the id-level audio manufacturers would have a chance to get gear out at a reasonable price?
Ahhhh... ignore me. I just get stuck on these things at times in hopes that people really do treat each other in a fair and honest manner.
Jim:
Veblen pricing is only part of the issue. Assuming that it is true that SimAudio has simply changed the facade and some minor aspects of the Denon processor, then it seems to me both unconscionably cynical for SimAudio to rebrand the Denon unit at over 15 times the MSRP and preposterously risky from a marketing perspective. SimAudio has developed market recognition over the years as a high end manufacturer, and they display all of the usual pretentions (exotic cosmetics, high prices, exclusive high-end dealers). To put their brand at risk this way seems terribly desperate.
Veblen ("conspicuous consumption") pricing depends on the perception that there is underlying value - albeit perhaps of a diminishing nature - that justifies the price and cachet. Not so in this case; if true, this represents Veblen-pricing-on-meth thinking.
Regards,
Scott
Veblen pricing is only part of the issue. Assuming that it is true that SimAudio has simply changed the facade and some minor aspects of the Denon processor, then it seems to me both unconscionably cynical for SimAudio to rebrand the Denon unit at over 15 times the MSRP and preposterously risky from a marketing perspective. SimAudio has developed market recognition over the years as a high end manufacturer, and they display all of the usual pretentions (exotic cosmetics, high prices, exclusive high-end dealers). To put their brand at risk this way seems terribly desperate.
Veblen ("conspicuous consumption") pricing depends on the perception that there is underlying value - albeit perhaps of a diminishing nature - that justifies the price and cachet. Not so in this case; if true, this represents Veblen-pricing-on-meth thinking.
Regards,
Scott
WRT Fashion, if this were a winter coat/ski jacket/I need to move (it is getting cold up here)... if the Denon ski jacket does the same as the SIM Audio jacket, then I think that I would be satisfied with the Denon skl jacket; it keeps me warm, protected from the elements, and is windproof. It does the same and for nearly the same, then I can live without the brand tag.
In the meantime, I am going to knit myself a tube amp and sew something Pass Labs Class A.
In the meantime, I am going to knit myself a tube amp and sew something Pass Labs Class A.
My reading of the Wikipedia article is that it is the price alone which boosts the appeal of Veblen goods. It is not that they are better, but that they are more expensive; the aim is to show that you can buy something that others cannot afford. This somewhat backfires when the item is of lower performance or quality than that bought by ordinary people; this allows us to smile at the rich, but they don't realise we are doing this (which rather takes the edge off it!).
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