Hey everyone, brand new member here who will probably leech more information than contribute given my complete lack of electrical/acoustic intellect (drummer, go figure). In fact, I never thought I'd be reading much less typing messages to this group since I've always been an OOTB audiophile musician gear-collecting type, albeit single-driver-curious, but that seems to have changed last week:
Wow. As absurdly, unfathomably finnicky as these things are about placement and amplification/sources, there is a magical palpability and image that, until now, I've only heard others talk about with their setups, or have only heard myself on (some but not all) six-figure setups at shows.
So, this is all to say I forsee myself spending hundreds of hours scouring this forum for tweaks and advice, of which there appears to be no shortage of, and will thank you all in advance for your volumes of reference for this strange and beautiful new world. Well, not always beautiful since function>form is why we're all here 🙂
Oh, and speaking of which, whoever made my cabinets actually did an impressive job making their fit and finish as furniture-grade as possible. Beveled edges, invisible joins, nice (cracking, will need restoration) veneer finish, black platforms...real classy work. Would love any information anyone may have on them (and of course, modding pointers to help me navigate the sea of information that is this forum)!
- Finds pair of Fostex fe206e-loaded cabinets for $100 on fb marketplace and says screw it why not
- Plugs them into garage "tester" setup (Arcam receiver, Meridian Explorer portable dac), sounds like crap
- Removes the reflex port to discover there's some sort of crossover network thing, bypasses it, listens again, ok now we're going somewhere interesting
- Swaps them into the Rogers LS3/5A livingroom setup (Naim entry-level separates, Bel Canto 1.5 dac), and despite flaws, there's something alluring that bears more exploration
- Swaps them into "reference" DeVore Gibbon Super 8 system (Naim Supernait 3 integrated w/ HiCap DR, Rose RS150b streamer/dac), hasn't left chair for 5 hours (other than to make dozens of adjustments to speaker/listening position). Oh, and signs up for diyAudio account 😉
Wow. As absurdly, unfathomably finnicky as these things are about placement and amplification/sources, there is a magical palpability and image that, until now, I've only heard others talk about with their setups, or have only heard myself on (some but not all) six-figure setups at shows.
So, this is all to say I forsee myself spending hundreds of hours scouring this forum for tweaks and advice, of which there appears to be no shortage of, and will thank you all in advance for your volumes of reference for this strange and beautiful new world. Well, not always beautiful since function>form is why we're all here 🙂
Oh, and speaking of which, whoever made my cabinets actually did an impressive job making their fit and finish as furniture-grade as possible. Beveled edges, invisible joins, nice (cracking, will need restoration) veneer finish, black platforms...real classy work. Would love any information anyone may have on them (and of course, modding pointers to help me navigate the sea of information that is this forum)!
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Goodness, that was fast! Thanks @skrstic ! So basically I scored a pair of MLTLs with unmodifed fe206e drivers, and perhaps the most valuable thing of all, an opportunity to learn about baffle step compensation, zobel networks, MLTLs for that matter, etc etc.
Maybe it's the rather small dimensions of my listening space (about 12'x12') but if anything I could use less bass, and am even considering a foam bass plug for listening to electronica/dance music. The midrange doesn't really strike me as being overpowering either, if not a bit "shoutey" as I've read others have said. Maybe that's the thing I'll try to sort out, if anything. Which then leads me down a path of phase plugs, that eNaBLe stuff, felt on the legs/magnet of the driver, and so forth...and maybe reconnecting the BSC+Z now that I have the speakers situated in a better room than my garage.
Man, this really isn't just a speaker; it's a whole lifestyle.
Maybe it's the rather small dimensions of my listening space (about 12'x12') but if anything I could use less bass, and am even considering a foam bass plug for listening to electronica/dance music. The midrange doesn't really strike me as being overpowering either, if not a bit "shoutey" as I've read others have said. Maybe that's the thing I'll try to sort out, if anything. Which then leads me down a path of phase plugs, that eNaBLe stuff, felt on the legs/magnet of the driver, and so forth...and maybe reconnecting the BSC+Z now that I have the speakers situated in a better room than my garage.
Man, this really isn't just a speaker; it's a whole lifestyle.
Nice find! I had a pair of Fostex 167e back in the day. I like them best not pushing them too low, high passed and rolling to a sub (simple BR box). I did the 98 cent tweak, which is some fluff tucked in around the outside of the whizzer cone. It's nice since it's non-permanent, as opposed to some other mods. I did damp the driver basket legs I think also.
A long time ago, I had almost the same ones. (See pic)
Not bad, but that box is better for Fostex207. Fostex 206e, being low Qts, really wants a horn to excell.
But, there is a "workaround". It can work im that box with a transconductance amplifier (Pass F1 and F2 for example).
As a test, you can try to wire a 25w, 10 up to 47 ohm resisor in series with thw + lead. Of course, you will "burn" a lot of power in the resistor, but for a hi power SS amp that shouldn't be a problem.
So, for the price you paid, it's a steal... 😉
Not bad, but that box is better for Fostex207. Fostex 206e, being low Qts, really wants a horn to excell.
But, there is a "workaround". It can work im that box with a transconductance amplifier (Pass F1 and F2 for example).
As a test, you can try to wire a 25w, 10 up to 47 ohm resisor in series with thw + lead. Of course, you will "burn" a lot of power in the resistor, but for a hi power SS amp that shouldn't be a problem.
So, for the price you paid, it's a steal... 😉
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Thanks for the tips and encouragement @AdamThorne @tansand @Vix! I'm not averse to trying some relatively skill-less tweaks, or for that matter, swapping drivers since the cabinets themselves are probably the biggest time/resource hurdles. The fe207s could go in there, but really, is there any reason that I couldn't swap any other 8" (or smaller, with a baffle "adaptor" plate or something) driver in place of the fostex? I've heard great things about MarkAudio drivers, and dropping $300 on a pair of the Alpair 12P 8s seems an affordable potential upgrade, no? Or maybe them purdy MAOPs? Stop me, please!
Yeah ok that was a dumb question. Sorry it's my first day.
But that said, I'm very curious about these MAOPs and Alpair units since, as much as I am enjoying what I'm getting from my happenstance fe206e MLTLs (hey I'm learning!) I could definitely go for a smoother, less shouty upper-mid. Also, just generally curious what moving up to a higher-end driver would sound like, which thankfully looks to be a lot more affordable of an experiment than upgrading commercial speakers.
Man, so much knowledge to absorb and adventure to be had!
But that said, I'm very curious about these MAOPs and Alpair units since, as much as I am enjoying what I'm getting from my happenstance fe206e MLTLs (hey I'm learning!) I could definitely go for a smoother, less shouty upper-mid. Also, just generally curious what moving up to a higher-end driver would sound like, which thankfully looks to be a lot more affordable of an experiment than upgrading commercial speakers.
Man, so much knowledge to absorb and adventure to be had!
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I would try that resistor trick above, and the 98 cent mod, and make sure that zobel is out of the circuit.
A lot has been covered.
ML-TL with Zobel
98¢ whizzer trick
FExx6 drivers really want to be in a horn
They prefer a high output impedance amplifier (ie not the NAIMs)
The last 2 to get addiquate bass, but you seem to have that covered. Removing the vent woud screw up the tuning and they wouod not go as low, but couod welll end up with a biggish hump up higher, they likely don’t go as low, but the impression of bass, especially given the low Rout of the NAIM and removal of the BSC filter.
The same kind of auditory affect as something like FF85wk in a Frugel-Hirn Lite, they dothe first harmonic ofthe low bass notes so well you think they have deep bass — but they aren’t.
They couoe really use phase plugs: http://www.planet10-hifi.com/downloads/FE20x-phaseplug.pdf (i still have. a few of these made of yellow cedar)
And they benefit from the same ZIG 2-wayn glue and coat of puzzlekoat: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/opinions-on-mods-to-ff85wk.365756/post-6480912
Add to that 2 applicaions of ZIG on the back of the whizzer at the edge, and the GM trick of massaging the whizzer.
dave
ML-TL with Zobel
98¢ whizzer trick
FExx6 drivers really want to be in a horn
They prefer a high output impedance amplifier (ie not the NAIMs)
The last 2 to get addiquate bass, but you seem to have that covered. Removing the vent woud screw up the tuning and they wouod not go as low, but couod welll end up with a biggish hump up higher, they likely don’t go as low, but the impression of bass, especially given the low Rout of the NAIM and removal of the BSC filter.
The same kind of auditory affect as something like FF85wk in a Frugel-Hirn Lite, they dothe first harmonic ofthe low bass notes so well you think they have deep bass — but they aren’t.
They couoe really use phase plugs: http://www.planet10-hifi.com/downloads/FE20x-phaseplug.pdf (i still have. a few of these made of yellow cedar)
And they benefit from the same ZIG 2-wayn glue and coat of puzzlekoat: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/opinions-on-mods-to-ff85wk.365756/post-6480912
Add to that 2 applicaions of ZIG on the back of the whizzer at the edge, and the GM trick of massaging the whizzer.
dave
Steve Deckert wanted his own phase plugs after people started instaling ours. I can see him sititng in his shop playing with them, saying i’ll pop this socket oin to check for fit, couldn’t pull it out and since it covers the major bits — removal of the dustup and filling the VC gap too that you lose the oil can resonance.
Thewoodenones with their 3 screws are hard enuff to get out, pulling a steel socket would be very difficult. All too easyn to turn them into midWoofersn when you wreck nthe whizzer (i have a set of FE166 i have to clean up that havethisissue).
dave
Thewoodenones with their 3 screws are hard enuff to get out, pulling a steel socket would be very difficult. All too easyn to turn them into midWoofersn when you wreck nthe whizzer (i have a set of FE166 i have to clean up that havethisissue).
dave
Try just the BSC circuit with the zobel removed too, maybe add a capacitor to it to keep it from rolling off the highs. No idea how to calculate this, ideally a simulation or look around to find some common values. If you like it you might try replacing the inductor with an air core, I didn't like the sound of the iron cores I tried.
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Saved a lot of time and money having already been built.
Didnt have to spend the money these guys cost 15 or more so years ago
When they were all the rage.
Aka find out how much bass they didnt have and how distorted they get
with low power for lots of money.
I drank the Kool Aid years ago and built a few enclosures.
2 camps. Guys excited and enjoy woodworking had more fun building them.
Then found out the deluxe GM sound in a 88 buick regal sounds better.
( Im serious, better woofer and quality enough tweeters to beat bananas )
2nd camp was guys that dreaded woodworking and when finally done.
Swear they sounded like 6 figure systems ...LOL
Years later there is a few Youtube videos out there. Watching guys with
amazing woodworking skills. And how magical some of the factory Fostex plans looked.
Pretty good fun.
Didnt have to spend the money these guys cost 15 or more so years ago
When they were all the rage.
Aka find out how much bass they didnt have and how distorted they get
with low power for lots of money.
I drank the Kool Aid years ago and built a few enclosures.
2 camps. Guys excited and enjoy woodworking had more fun building them.
Then found out the deluxe GM sound in a 88 buick regal sounds better.
( Im serious, better woofer and quality enough tweeters to beat bananas )
2nd camp was guys that dreaded woodworking and when finally done.
Swear they sounded like 6 figure systems ...LOL
Years later there is a few Youtube videos out there. Watching guys with
amazing woodworking skills. And how magical some of the factory Fostex plans looked.
Pretty good fun.
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Well, admittedly, I've got some shame in that y'all have offered many interesting directions I've yet to try in refining what the consensus feels is an imperfect pairing of the imperfect fe206e drivers in the MLTL (non-horn) cabinet. In that sense, I was curious to see what other drivers would be better suited to the cabinets, and potentially be an upgrade that may address some of the sonic shortcomings OOTB.
I then came across the just-released Markaudio MS-200 8" driver (you can imagine where I'm going with this), and learned that my MLTL enclosures (which a handful of you mentioned were a lucky score and saved me a lot of time/effort not having to create something that would have looked much worse) are almost the same dimensions and internal volume of the Syncerus Antiquus MA200 design at 12.4x11x44 inches, with a mid-cabinet cross-brace to boot! All of this, plus the fact that Markaudio and these drivers are beloved forum/internet-wide, meaning I could probably resell them if I didn't like the results at a minimal loss, make me feel that picking up a pair of these drivers seem like an interesting experiment and path forward. And, a fairly minimally laborious experiment since they're comparable sizes and would only require screwing a 6-screw pattern versus the Foxtex's 4.
Only thing is MA doesn't appear to be available via Madisound at the moment, despite a cached search result saying they were once available for $160 each which is now is a broken link. I sent them an email late Friday and will hopefully hear some good news next week. Or, I would love to know if anyone else has suggestions/used units available if they're not distributed domestically (and I'm always game for a li'l visit to Victoria BC, ahem @planet10 ). Overall, given it don't have access to woodworking, it seems like my options are either to purchase someone else's completed speakers (shot-out @Jcris for some great advice and direction as well), or refine the cabinets I already own. If I do the latter, I think I'd just rather start with a more end-game driver that is better suited to the well-built, attractive cabinets I already have, and likely my own hands wouldn't be able to best anytime soon.
Thanks for all the insights so far, and would love to hear what y'all think, even if y'all think I'm a fool and need to calm it down before dropping $300+ on a questionable path forward 😉
I then came across the just-released Markaudio MS-200 8" driver (you can imagine where I'm going with this), and learned that my MLTL enclosures (which a handful of you mentioned were a lucky score and saved me a lot of time/effort not having to create something that would have looked much worse) are almost the same dimensions and internal volume of the Syncerus Antiquus MA200 design at 12.4x11x44 inches, with a mid-cabinet cross-brace to boot! All of this, plus the fact that Markaudio and these drivers are beloved forum/internet-wide, meaning I could probably resell them if I didn't like the results at a minimal loss, make me feel that picking up a pair of these drivers seem like an interesting experiment and path forward. And, a fairly minimally laborious experiment since they're comparable sizes and would only require screwing a 6-screw pattern versus the Foxtex's 4.
Only thing is MA doesn't appear to be available via Madisound at the moment, despite a cached search result saying they were once available for $160 each which is now is a broken link. I sent them an email late Friday and will hopefully hear some good news next week. Or, I would love to know if anyone else has suggestions/used units available if they're not distributed domestically (and I'm always game for a li'l visit to Victoria BC, ahem @planet10 ). Overall, given it don't have access to woodworking, it seems like my options are either to purchase someone else's completed speakers (shot-out @Jcris for some great advice and direction as well), or refine the cabinets I already own. If I do the latter, I think I'd just rather start with a more end-game driver that is better suited to the well-built, attractive cabinets I already have, and likely my own hands wouldn't be able to best anytime soon.
Thanks for all the insights so far, and would love to hear what y'all think, even if y'all think I'm a fool and need to calm it down before dropping $300+ on a questionable path forward 😉
Sounds like a decent plan. @Scottmoose could probably suggest a tweaked vent size.
Given the pressure for a larger Markaudio driver I expect the new 8” were all sucked up very quickly, as a new driver, Madisound may have been conservitive with the numbers on a first order.
And i am always happy to have visitors. Got room for them in your car?
dave
Given the pressure for a larger Markaudio driver I expect the new 8” were all sucked up very quickly, as a new driver, Madisound may have been conservitive with the numbers on a first order.
And i am always happy to have visitors. Got room for them in your car?
dave
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Would love any guidance from the exalted master 🙂 Currently it's got a 6" deep port with a 4" diameter which flares out to 8" at each end, the centerpoint (?) of which is 5" from the bottom of the cabinet. Maybe this would be helpful:
For the drivers alone? Definitely would have room, or are you thinking I should bring the cabinets as well? I was able to fit them in my car when I retrieved them, so that could be a possibility next time I find myself road-tripping from the California Bay Area to the PNW, which could be justified given my wife and I had a lovely trip to Victoria pre-covid (and maybe she and I can just wear the driver-less cabinets on the Clipper pretending to be crude eccentric robots with no arms, or something).
Do you currently have MA-200s in stock? Definitely don't want to violate any distribution radius-clause/territory boundaries if that would cause a conflict with Madisound and/or Scott, though perhaps purchasing a set you've EnABL'd would avoid this conflict, as I would likely want them EnABL'd either way and that would save a shipping leg. Would love to visit the shop in person at some point either way, though I don't expect that to happen anytime before the summer.
Cheers for the input!