Hi,
AP are discontinuing support of the 2700-series at end of 2024 (I found this out when they posted a cartoon on their social media, showing dinosaurs next to 2700 machines, with flaming asteroids approaching...ha ha..ha...).
They are offering a 20% discount on new AAs if you trade the 2700 in, but it goes to 10% next year.
On a 555B, a 2722 = $8,750 discount (~£7K GBP), which is likely more than the 2722 will fetch on Ebay.
If the 2722 goes kaput after 2024, who will fix it? Duke is based in the USA, but to my knowledge he doesn't handle 2722s.
I am a relatively happy UPV user. My concern is that the 2722 will become an actual boat anchor in 2025. Let's say I get 20% off the 555B. Were I to sell the 555B after a year, I am likely to get well below the cost price - 20% (I've never seen a 555 for sale, but very much doubt they fetch anything like advertised Ebay prices, which seem to have gone crazy for everything now), so the 555B will be a costly experiment. I could get a good Pick+Place machine for the business instead...
The 2722 is currently sitting in the rack. I feel it's saying 'do ya feel lucky, punk? I could go for another 5 years...or a cap could flame out and burn through 12 layers of tracks...'.
Is the 555 really the only game in town now?
(cap flaming out is an extreme example, I admit).
edit - come to think of it, the 2722 is more boat-anchory than I thought. If I sent it for servicing now due to an issue, what are the odds it would be economical? The UPV cost £3,700 to service last time (ex sales tax). £3,700 to service a 2722 would pretty much render it unviable financially. And I doubt AP are cheaper than R+S...
AP are discontinuing support of the 2700-series at end of 2024 (I found this out when they posted a cartoon on their social media, showing dinosaurs next to 2700 machines, with flaming asteroids approaching...ha ha..ha...).
They are offering a 20% discount on new AAs if you trade the 2700 in, but it goes to 10% next year.
On a 555B, a 2722 = $8,750 discount (~£7K GBP), which is likely more than the 2722 will fetch on Ebay.
If the 2722 goes kaput after 2024, who will fix it? Duke is based in the USA, but to my knowledge he doesn't handle 2722s.
I am a relatively happy UPV user. My concern is that the 2722 will become an actual boat anchor in 2025. Let's say I get 20% off the 555B. Were I to sell the 555B after a year, I am likely to get well below the cost price - 20% (I've never seen a 555 for sale, but very much doubt they fetch anything like advertised Ebay prices, which seem to have gone crazy for everything now), so the 555B will be a costly experiment. I could get a good Pick+Place machine for the business instead...
The 2722 is currently sitting in the rack. I feel it's saying 'do ya feel lucky, punk? I could go for another 5 years...or a cap could flame out and burn through 12 layers of tracks...'.
Is the 555 really the only game in town now?
(cap flaming out is an extreme example, I admit).
edit - come to think of it, the 2722 is more boat-anchory than I thought. If I sent it for servicing now due to an issue, what are the odds it would be economical? The UPV cost £3,700 to service last time (ex sales tax). £3,700 to service a 2722 would pretty much render it unviable financially. And I doubt AP are cheaper than R+S...
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From your description the 2722 doesn't see much use. I would has a few questions to get a perspective-
1) This is a commercial business (not a hobbiest) correct?
2) Is there anything where the AP 2722 (or AP55b) required? As in not having it would jeperdize some income? (I know there is a market Cachet to the name on docs.)
3) If the use is so low maybe renting periodically would make sense?
4) If there is a performance issue and the automation is not essential there are solutions that get close or better (e.g. Cosmos). Would one of those serve?
5) If automation is an issue the QA stuff can do an awful lot for not much money and is open source and programmable from the ground up, two features not available from AP.
6) Do you need Bluetooth, HDMI or the other stuff that an 555B supports (for stupid money)?
In my experience the ultra low distortion of a 555B is not necessary to screen good product from defective product. And anyone who claims they can hear the difference between .001% and .0001% needs a reality check.
For my money I would unload the 2722 asap since a lot will be hitting the market. Finding someone to reverse engineer them and offer service would transform the used market. I think Duke really has his hands full and is not interested in supporting the 2700 stuff.
1) This is a commercial business (not a hobbiest) correct?
2) Is there anything where the AP 2722 (or AP55b) required? As in not having it would jeperdize some income? (I know there is a market Cachet to the name on docs.)
3) If the use is so low maybe renting periodically would make sense?
4) If there is a performance issue and the automation is not essential there are solutions that get close or better (e.g. Cosmos). Would one of those serve?
5) If automation is an issue the QA stuff can do an awful lot for not much money and is open source and programmable from the ground up, two features not available from AP.
6) Do you need Bluetooth, HDMI or the other stuff that an 555B supports (for stupid money)?
In my experience the ultra low distortion of a 555B is not necessary to screen good product from defective product. And anyone who claims they can hear the difference between .001% and .0001% needs a reality check.
For my money I would unload the 2722 asap since a lot will be hitting the market. Finding someone to reverse engineer them and offer service would transform the used market. I think Duke really has his hands full and is not interested in supporting the 2700 stuff.
A possible strategy would be to wait a little bit until used prices for 27xx go down and then buy a second one as a backup. When one breaks you have good chances to quickly double check with the other what/where exactly, and if both break you can still try to combine the parts for a working one. One can even start with buying a broken one for peanuts as parts donor to begin with.
At least that's the way vintage measurement gear collectors often proceed.
The most likely item to fail is relays anyway which is a rather simple repair if you have a template to cross-check. Most relays are placed in the input or output channel paths so even if one breaks you still have a working second channel and can use that as the "known good" template.
At least that's the way vintage measurement gear collectors often proceed.
The most likely item to fail is relays anyway which is a rather simple repair if you have a template to cross-check. Most relays are placed in the input or output channel paths so even if one breaks you still have a working second channel and can use that as the "known good" template.
- Yes. But we don’t make anything that goes beyond the UPV’s -113dB THD+N floor (2722 = -115 or -116 on a good day, and 555 = -120dB). Our daily drivers are UPVs (the DScope hasn’t been on for years…)
- The most attractive aspect to the 555 is the way that it makes compiling routines easy (macros on the 2722 are a PITA, as are most operations). We could probably buy 5 x AP516B for the cost of the 555B and it’ll do the same thing, albeit with a digitally-generated oscillator...
- That’s a good point. The downside will be that R+D has to be planned in advance, as that is where the 555 is really needed, not general daily duties, which the UPVs cover nicely.
- At some point I’ll try a Cosmos. As any commercial folk here can attest, simply pressing the ‘On’ button and having a fully calibrated AA is nice. The UPV is switched on while I drink my first coffee of the day and gets switched off when I leave. It gets way more use than any scope.
- Good point. I ought to check the QA stuff for production. I wouldn’t use it for spec-ing stuff, which is where the 555 is needed.
- No. The basic 555 with analogue + SPDIF / optical will work for me.
I wonder if anyone can comment on Sam Groener's paper which suggests that the 2722 oscillator outperforms the 555 one? This is probably my biggest concern with buying the 555. If the 555B performs like Sam's 555 example then I'll be getting the 555 for its routines, not its forensic abilities. That will be very annoying. Sam's paper: https://www.nanovolt.ch/resources/oscillators/pdf/low_distortion_oscillator_comparison.pdf
LMAO. We did this with a pair of UPVs! The ‘Frankenstein’ one works better than the one we just spent thousands at R+S with. It’s my daily driver.
Thanks for letting me know your thoughts.
The 555B is supposed to be significantly better than a 555. However Victors oscillator is lower distortion still. And peanuts in cost in this scale.
This discussion has persuaded me too continue with my APS1 and use the Victor +Shibasoku or similar when needed. Which is rare. .
This discussion has persuaded me too continue with my APS1 and use the Victor +Shibasoku or similar when needed. Which is rare. .
Completely agree! You need to have a really good business case for the excessive money they are asking. I was just at an AP seminar recently and saw the new product. I think the software was the star - and it alone is way overpriced.
I would keep and use the 2722 if it were me. I take a dim view of companies that don't support old product. Maybe they don't want to fix it. Fine, release the service information in that case.
I would keep and use the 2722 if it were me. I take a dim view of companies that don't support old product. Maybe they don't want to fix it. Fine, release the service information in that case.
That's true. However is isn't worth what they are asking. Then consider they will cease to support the instrument and if anything happens it is worth a couple bucks on the pound.
Right now, I think all test equipment manufacturers are selling product not made as well as it should be, failing to fully support it and asking far in excess of what the product is worth. Expected lifetime isn't even close to what they used to be. Then they are going to drop all forms of support at some point in the future?
I don't know about you, but I have a real problem with that. I speak as a person who has recently bought new test equipment from one of the best manufacturer's and am running into quality and design issues. I've spent over $90K in the last couple years on a few instruments. I could add it up, but it depresses me. Never had so many problems and design shortcomings.
I think they want $3,500 for the software. Come on, really? You are forced to use their software, so they have you over a barrel.
Right now, I think all test equipment manufacturers are selling product not made as well as it should be, failing to fully support it and asking far in excess of what the product is worth. Expected lifetime isn't even close to what they used to be. Then they are going to drop all forms of support at some point in the future?
I don't know about you, but I have a real problem with that. I speak as a person who has recently bought new test equipment from one of the best manufacturer's and am running into quality and design issues. I've spent over $90K in the last couple years on a few instruments. I could add it up, but it depresses me. Never had so many problems and design shortcomings.
I think they want $3,500 for the software. Come on, really? You are forced to use their software, so they have you over a barrel.