Hello all, I am new to this form and DIY audio in general although I have long had a passion for audio. I currently own a pair of revel M106 and my father owns some Salon 2s. I am interested in making the "Best" Horn loaded "party" speaker. I am a big fan of music festivals and want to recreate that chest thumping bass and levels where I need to put my musicians earplugs in but as high fidelity as possible. I have been taking some inspiration from the likes such as funktion-one, hennessey sound https://www.hennesseysounddesign.com/point-source/ , and KV2 VHD2 https://www.kv2audio.com/products/vhd-series/vhd20.html . This sound system will eventually be placed in a "great room" likely a flown array to get even front to back coverage. I am currently thinking of 4" 1.4" exit beryllium compression tweeter such as https://radianaudio.com/collections...s/951-4-diaphragm-1-4-exit-compression-driver and possibly paired with one of these horns https://www.parts-express.com/B-C-M...ctivity-Horn-70x55-4-Bolt-294-6184?quantity=1 . Hennessey makes mid bass and subwoofer boxes that do 75-300 and 25-100hz respectively that I would like to emulate or possibly just purchase.
My biggest question still is how to complete the midrange likely 275/300-1???hz I want to have as high fidelity as possible but it also needs to be comfortable at 120 and reach up into that 130+db peak levels.
maybe https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...nx-003-e0073-08-6-graphene-cone-woofer-8-ohm/
or Purifi Ushindi 6.5" PTT6.5M08-NAA-08
I plan to do this all on active dsp crossovers with 7 separate amplifiers to get the timing, crossovers, and frequency response perfect.
Any and all advise is welcome!
My biggest question still is how to complete the midrange likely 275/300-1???hz I want to have as high fidelity as possible but it also needs to be comfortable at 120 and reach up into that 130+db peak levels.
maybe https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.c...nx-003-e0073-08-6-graphene-cone-woofer-8-ohm/
or Purifi Ushindi 6.5" PTT6.5M08-NAA-08
I plan to do this all on active dsp crossovers with 7 separate amplifiers to get the timing, crossovers, and frequency response perfect.
Any and all advise is welcome!
You could try a Danley SH50 or 60 alike. MEH / Synergy horn.
7 drivers each channel.
Does 55Hz to 18KHz nicely, phase coherent.
The twin 12" bass drivers really thump it out.
No problem with clarity/dynamics projection at parties😃
There's loads of info, knowhow and help on DIYaudio 👍
7 drivers each channel.
Does 55Hz to 18KHz nicely, phase coherent.
The twin 12" bass drivers really thump it out.
No problem with clarity/dynamics projection at parties😃
There's loads of info, knowhow and help on DIYaudio 👍
Hi, how large a room? And how will the four 1.4" compression drivers be deployed? Flown in 4 room corners?
Planning on subs to go with it all of course ?
The Hennessey boxes look well designed, and look to be a morph of the DIY PM90 and PM60 design found on Soundforums.
The PM boxes would be excellent for your application I think, btw. And would eliminate the need for a mid-range box solution.
I've built them an they are excellent, both for home use and live sound.
I've heard the Kv2 boxes at a trade show, and they sounded very good...although not as "point source" sounding as the PM boxes.
Also have the B&C horn you linked. It's a nice horn that lets the DCX464 compression driver be used down to 300Hz. I like the PM solution better though.
No experience with Radian, just the B&C and BMS coax guys, which both work great in any box I put them in.
Best design I've found, for the combination of pristine audio and sheer power, has been unity/synergies like Speedysteve7 suggested. Much more work than the PM boxes to get right though. But you do get to choose your H & V horn pattern, and how big you want to make them.
Maybe the biggest consideration given your SPL targets, once past H & V pattern decision, is the sub integration. A big room needs some serious subs to keep up with the main speaker's SPL you're considering.
Planning on subs to go with it all of course ?
The Hennessey boxes look well designed, and look to be a morph of the DIY PM90 and PM60 design found on Soundforums.
The PM boxes would be excellent for your application I think, btw. And would eliminate the need for a mid-range box solution.
I've built them an they are excellent, both for home use and live sound.
I've heard the Kv2 boxes at a trade show, and they sounded very good...although not as "point source" sounding as the PM boxes.
Also have the B&C horn you linked. It's a nice horn that lets the DCX464 compression driver be used down to 300Hz. I like the PM solution better though.
No experience with Radian, just the B&C and BMS coax guys, which both work great in any box I put them in.
Best design I've found, for the combination of pristine audio and sheer power, has been unity/synergies like Speedysteve7 suggested. Much more work than the PM boxes to get right though. But you do get to choose your H & V horn pattern, and how big you want to make them.
Maybe the biggest consideration given your SPL targets, once past H & V pattern decision, is the sub integration. A big room needs some serious subs to keep up with the main speaker's SPL you're considering.
I was looking at synergy horns and what got me on this whole kick was the MEH paper that recently got popular. My goal is as high fidelity as possible and my research has led me down the horn size and directivity problem. I dont feel that I could build a MEH horn that would follow as good a directivity as a off the shelf separate high and mid horn/waveguide, but I may be wrong on all this I am here to be educated. But maybe synergy/meh really is the best solution that I am looking for.
As for @mark100 comment, i appreciate the input, I will look at what you have mentioned. I plan to likely just have the 2 front 4" 1.4" compressions drivers not 4 in total. I also do plan to have 2/4 serious subs to fill in the 20-100hz range.
I don't have much experience of other horns, not in semi PA settings.
I started with 40 or 45 deg 12 sided conicals in a huge 5 way system.
They were fine for the mid bass and MF, the HF horn was a bit too direct, that could have been the JBL2435Be drivers I was using though.
I found Tractix and then Le Cléac'h profile much smoother on the HF and moved to Tractix on the MF and Exponential on the mid bass.
In my room these caused some HF and MF reflections, so I treated the room more and more.
Then I built the SH50s for a bit of fun and to find out about them.
Different challenges to them than turning 35cm diameter wood Le Cléac'h horns or 1.4m long exponential mid bass horns🙂
The SH50s, were quicker to make. The rear enclosure took as long as the cone / flare.
The enclosure gives the Danley horns great punchy LF to 55Hz.
Mix of horn and then the reflex ports take over.
Listening to a pretty flat phase, single point system for the first time was interesting.
I'm not going back..
I might build some 60° cabs as they would fit my room constraints.
Just transplant the drivers..
Not sure my long, narrow room would work better with them though.
I don't suffer side wall reflections at all with the SH50s, set up as Danley described.
I started with 40 or 45 deg 12 sided conicals in a huge 5 way system.
They were fine for the mid bass and MF, the HF horn was a bit too direct, that could have been the JBL2435Be drivers I was using though.
I found Tractix and then Le Cléac'h profile much smoother on the HF and moved to Tractix on the MF and Exponential on the mid bass.
In my room these caused some HF and MF reflections, so I treated the room more and more.
Then I built the SH50s for a bit of fun and to find out about them.
Different challenges to them than turning 35cm diameter wood Le Cléac'h horns or 1.4m long exponential mid bass horns🙂
The SH50s, were quicker to make. The rear enclosure took as long as the cone / flare.
The enclosure gives the Danley horns great punchy LF to 55Hz.
Mix of horn and then the reflex ports take over.
Listening to a pretty flat phase, single point system for the first time was interesting.
I'm not going back..
I might build some 60° cabs as they would fit my room constraints.
Just transplant the drivers..
Not sure my long, narrow room would work better with them though.
I don't suffer side wall reflections at all with the SH50s, set up as Danley described.
@Speedysteve7 you have made quite note horn journey and the fact that you end at the synergy horn says something about the qualities of the design.
I imagine the RAAL tweeter is a nice addition. I was just wondering if this doesn't take away some of the benefits of the point source?
Hopefully not too much, as I would like to go in a sort of similar direction like you, focusing with compression driver mainly on the quality of say 800hz > 14khz with natural and good texture and so omit Berrylium diaphragms and add a good super tweeter instead. 🙂
I imagine the RAAL tweeter is a nice addition. I was just wondering if this doesn't take away some of the benefits of the point source?
Hopefully not too much, as I would like to go in a sort of similar direction like you, focusing with compression driver mainly on the quality of say 800hz > 14khz with natural and good texture and so omit Berrylium diaphragms and add a good super tweeter instead. 🙂
I was using the Raal tweeters but fitting them at the front wall so the reflected ambiant sound is very much not of the 1st horn phase aligned wavefront.
That way they didn't seem to interfere.
However, my S2s measure with their output trailing of at 16KHz. This is a 1m distance, while dialling in the freq and phase..
I don't recall them playing that high in the Tractrix or Le Cléac'h horns, but I always time aligned and latterly aligned the shifting phase plots at the listening position - I'll have to check some of my old measurements.
I'm older than I was with the first horn systems🙂, can't hear above 16KHz these days..
Also, recently I made adapters so I can screw fit the BMS 4550 drivers.
They measure with output upto 18KHz and trailing off.
Definitely need a tweeter, esp at PA levels, where a trail off high is normal.
I'm actually enjoying the BMS drivers.
I gave them a very bad rep first time around.
Could have been I was so focused on what the S2s and Le Cléac'h horns did as a sole performance, I missed the synergy cohesive phase performance somehow..?
I'll swap back to the S2s again soon and see!
Sometimes I find a change is as good as a rest.
I'd like to try something else at some point.
Eminence N314Ts could be alternatives..?
Neither of those drivers will come close to 130dB without catching fire. Really. If you take an optimistic 90dB@1w, you'd need to hit them with 10KW peaks to get to 130dB.
If it was my project, I'd do something like this, per side:
- BMS 4592 on a big horn
- 2x Faital Pro 12FH520
- 2x Faital 18XL1800 in big ported boxes tuned low.
Crossovers at about 80Hz, 600Hz, and wherever the BMS mid/high transition works best on that horn.
You'll need some good amplifiers to drive this stuff. I like the Powersoft T-series amps, and use those for my PA system. They have excellent DSP and sound quality, and plenty of power.
Chris
If I was doing a project like this, I would be looking at B&C Coaxials for it. Scott Hinson has a build that you can find called "MEH" and it uses them. I also know of at least one major line array company using them and they are incredible.
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/coaxial_hf
https://www.bcspeakers.com/en/products/coaxial_hf
Second vote for the B&C coaxial ...the DCX464.
They are what I'm running in my current setup.
They are what I'm running in my current setup.
Should have been - definitely DON'T need a tweeter
Should have been - firing at the front wall from on top of the horn cab.
Was in a rush when I woke that..
Maybe ill give MEH a try on the ME464 horn possibly with two to four 4-6" midrange drivers and a nice beryllium compression driver behind it. Possibly integrating a design like the PM60/90 for a hornloaded 70-200ish hz midbass on two sides of the synergy.