Hello guys, I wanted to share my last build, maybe get some feedback.
I was very happy with my nupole (nude dipole on a pole).
Took the dipole path few years ago, for a very evolutive and iterative process with 20+ versions.
The last one was very very satisfying, but I couldn't stop thinking that it might all be based on biases that evolved in parallel.
Friends and even more Hifi enlighten friends enjoyed it too but could not invalidate my choices.
Also the room evolved with the build, and I know this could hurt the end result, or know that I might have to change few things to better work with a box system, but this is for later.
So I decided to try one last time a boxed system.
I initially started with a simple 3 way sealed, classic look that I like, reasonable size as I thought I wouldn't need much SPL.
First prototype was not very pleasant.
Build a second one a little bigger, not much better.
It felt weak, not enough presence in the room, no filling/no feeling.
I'm sure it could have been better with a lot of tune work but it was just not a good enough starting point.
So, for the time and money involved why not go nuts with the biggest I could fit in the room?
Always love the jbl 4350 serie, so this was the first inspiration.
And really love the Pitt & Giblin stuff, this was the kick in the back I needed to decide for a 3 way sealed with horns.
In the same time Nicolas opened his online shop on Audio Horn so after discussion I went with the X-28 with roundover option.
2x15" woofer sealed for the bottom to try sub-less first, and allow a future port if needed.
Studied a bit what kind of woofers could play nice in a sealed box of 100L, at reasonable prices, and went for the SB 15OB350 (very cheap and the simulated response was not much better with the 15SW800).
Then what kind of midrange could play nice between 200-1500Hz with this horn? The PHL3040 seemed a good fit, among others.
I could have gone with a more low midrange oriented one but wanted to try.
Construction was fun, I'm very impatient and usually start with minimal plans, my way to deal with surprises during the process.
Very useful informations were found online around the jbl : plans, clones, video build etc so I had a good idea how to do it.
I also have a limited wood work knowledge, practice and tools, so I again went the ikea route, for a good enough finish with minimal work.
So I took some door panels, full particle boards with a fake but nice walnut finish, for the outer box, and Eket boxes resized for the horns.
22mm plywood for front and back, with mdf as second layer where needed + bracing.
100x70x40cm, 280L outside and around 220-230L inside, with a 15L. box for the midrange, bracing very similar to the the jbl, all panels in their longer length + support around the woofers. Kind of light bracing as a start, that could evolve if needed.
Bought few tools to get a nicer result, a little router that was very easy to manage and surprisingly strong enough for the big holes, and a plunge saw with rails for better cuts as my regular circular one didn't cut straight on longer runs.
I've built one at a time and was ready for 3 thinking I will mess the 1st too much, but fortunately it was ok and I was able to do 2 very similar in a row. The second one is a little cleaner on edge cuts and details but is 95% the same I'd say.
To do better I would have to study real wood working, or ask for help.
It sure could be built better but it is solid, where I thought it seemed a little weak I would just add some wood.
If I redo one I would go even bigger as finally their size is fine.
Few pics of the boxes:
And some of last rew stuff:
- Nearfield response per driver, no eq needed on the midrange, big +12db boost on the woofers.
Did a bunch of off-axis measurement to get a feeling of the response, not shared here I just don't always save them and almost never "tag" them anyway.
Planned for a 1200ish Hz crossover for the horn, but surprisingly the 10" midrange off axis response was too good high up, or not enough directive if I can say to get a good match with the horn, so went with 1400Hz.
- Sum and timing made at listening point with mic and ears, before and after eq with averages:
I first heavily stuffed them but at the end removed everything. Clearly lost 4-5db with stuff above 50hz for just a little more low end.
And without, compensated by eq, it just sounds better.
I didin't notice much resonance, nor saw any in the impedance sweeps, just something to check for later.
Still working on the tuning of course, the first result was disappointing on the low end, I clearly missed the clarity of the dipole stuff.
It really felt like I missed some notes! Or the room just ate them.
I tried to integrate the H-frame subs, but this was nearly impossible, placement and room interaction just didn't work to mix both types.
I don't listen super loud so I have headroom with the woofers, that's why I pushed them a lot.
And after few more tunes it got better, I was able to get back some of the presence the first octave can give you.
But sure the room is not forgiving, work in progress…
The horn is really good, of course it gave me more precision in the soundstage, more than the dipole.
So a little more accurate, easier on listening window too, but also less ambiance. It's just too early to judge.
Nothing to say on the midrange, it does its job perfectly, and very efficient too.
They might not be as good as the kartesian, but here it's also too early to judge.
It's the very beginning and there's a lot more to do and test. different crossover points, different slopes etc.
The target is hard to adjust, I need more time as it's a very different result.
Also one day I might measure them outside and try Virtuix, but they're damn heavy…
I re-used the flex 8 and some of previous amps at first.
A Schiit rekkr for the horns, perfect, absolutely silent!
A fosi v3 stereo with 36v for the midrange, lowered the volume but it's still a little hissy.
And Crown xls 1502 for the woofers since the boost needs some power.
I initially though about getting some plate amps, fusion maybe for an integrated look, and to get power for the woofers.
But I also had not so good experience with hypex and HE drivers, so I first took some voltage measurements on the cones to see what kind of power they used.
Very efficient, so finally and since I don't think I'll ever go over -6db I ordered a second rekkr to put on the midranges, I'm confident they will be then totally silent.
For the woofers the xls is too noisy, tried the little fosi v3 with 48v and it's better, but I think their new v3 mono will be a better match, waiting for them now. Glad I didn't ordered the fusions!
So now I enjoy the new sound, it's different, but the more I tune the closer it gets.
I don't think I will get he clarity of the dipole, but I will just have to decide it I can accept the new compromise.
If ok I will then finish them a little better, paint the baffle, adjust few things, and then start to adapt the room, relocating the diffusors for example.
If convinced I could even rebuild them better, bigger.
One thing for sure, they will be easier to live with as I don't have big powerplants in the middle of the room anymore, better when receiving a bunch of people during summer.
Cats enjoyed them too, they don't care about the cones and I'm glad, just two more big things to climb on and chill 😉
I was very happy with my nupole (nude dipole on a pole).
Took the dipole path few years ago, for a very evolutive and iterative process with 20+ versions.
The last one was very very satisfying, but I couldn't stop thinking that it might all be based on biases that evolved in parallel.
Friends and even more Hifi enlighten friends enjoyed it too but could not invalidate my choices.
Also the room evolved with the build, and I know this could hurt the end result, or know that I might have to change few things to better work with a box system, but this is for later.
So I decided to try one last time a boxed system.
I initially started with a simple 3 way sealed, classic look that I like, reasonable size as I thought I wouldn't need much SPL.
First prototype was not very pleasant.
Build a second one a little bigger, not much better.
It felt weak, not enough presence in the room, no filling/no feeling.
I'm sure it could have been better with a lot of tune work but it was just not a good enough starting point.
So, for the time and money involved why not go nuts with the biggest I could fit in the room?
Always love the jbl 4350 serie, so this was the first inspiration.
And really love the Pitt & Giblin stuff, this was the kick in the back I needed to decide for a 3 way sealed with horns.
In the same time Nicolas opened his online shop on Audio Horn so after discussion I went with the X-28 with roundover option.
2x15" woofer sealed for the bottom to try sub-less first, and allow a future port if needed.
Studied a bit what kind of woofers could play nice in a sealed box of 100L, at reasonable prices, and went for the SB 15OB350 (very cheap and the simulated response was not much better with the 15SW800).
Then what kind of midrange could play nice between 200-1500Hz with this horn? The PHL3040 seemed a good fit, among others.
I could have gone with a more low midrange oriented one but wanted to try.
Construction was fun, I'm very impatient and usually start with minimal plans, my way to deal with surprises during the process.
Very useful informations were found online around the jbl : plans, clones, video build etc so I had a good idea how to do it.
I also have a limited wood work knowledge, practice and tools, so I again went the ikea route, for a good enough finish with minimal work.
So I took some door panels, full particle boards with a fake but nice walnut finish, for the outer box, and Eket boxes resized for the horns.
22mm plywood for front and back, with mdf as second layer where needed + bracing.
100x70x40cm, 280L outside and around 220-230L inside, with a 15L. box for the midrange, bracing very similar to the the jbl, all panels in their longer length + support around the woofers. Kind of light bracing as a start, that could evolve if needed.
Bought few tools to get a nicer result, a little router that was very easy to manage and surprisingly strong enough for the big holes, and a plunge saw with rails for better cuts as my regular circular one didn't cut straight on longer runs.
I've built one at a time and was ready for 3 thinking I will mess the 1st too much, but fortunately it was ok and I was able to do 2 very similar in a row. The second one is a little cleaner on edge cuts and details but is 95% the same I'd say.
To do better I would have to study real wood working, or ask for help.
It sure could be built better but it is solid, where I thought it seemed a little weak I would just add some wood.
If I redo one I would go even bigger as finally their size is fine.
Few pics of the boxes:
And some of last rew stuff:
- Nearfield response per driver, no eq needed on the midrange, big +12db boost on the woofers.
Did a bunch of off-axis measurement to get a feeling of the response, not shared here I just don't always save them and almost never "tag" them anyway.
Planned for a 1200ish Hz crossover for the horn, but surprisingly the 10" midrange off axis response was too good high up, or not enough directive if I can say to get a good match with the horn, so went with 1400Hz.
- Sum and timing made at listening point with mic and ears, before and after eq with averages:
I first heavily stuffed them but at the end removed everything. Clearly lost 4-5db with stuff above 50hz for just a little more low end.
And without, compensated by eq, it just sounds better.
I didin't notice much resonance, nor saw any in the impedance sweeps, just something to check for later.
Still working on the tuning of course, the first result was disappointing on the low end, I clearly missed the clarity of the dipole stuff.
It really felt like I missed some notes! Or the room just ate them.
I tried to integrate the H-frame subs, but this was nearly impossible, placement and room interaction just didn't work to mix both types.
I don't listen super loud so I have headroom with the woofers, that's why I pushed them a lot.
And after few more tunes it got better, I was able to get back some of the presence the first octave can give you.
But sure the room is not forgiving, work in progress…
The horn is really good, of course it gave me more precision in the soundstage, more than the dipole.
So a little more accurate, easier on listening window too, but also less ambiance. It's just too early to judge.
Nothing to say on the midrange, it does its job perfectly, and very efficient too.
They might not be as good as the kartesian, but here it's also too early to judge.
It's the very beginning and there's a lot more to do and test. different crossover points, different slopes etc.
The target is hard to adjust, I need more time as it's a very different result.
Also one day I might measure them outside and try Virtuix, but they're damn heavy…
I re-used the flex 8 and some of previous amps at first.
A Schiit rekkr for the horns, perfect, absolutely silent!
A fosi v3 stereo with 36v for the midrange, lowered the volume but it's still a little hissy.
And Crown xls 1502 for the woofers since the boost needs some power.
I initially though about getting some plate amps, fusion maybe for an integrated look, and to get power for the woofers.
But I also had not so good experience with hypex and HE drivers, so I first took some voltage measurements on the cones to see what kind of power they used.
- dual parallel woofers, 3.6 ohms at 30hz where EQ boost is severe: at -20db on flex, 2.8 watts and at -10db, where I just almost never go: 28 watts. So far off the Xmax limit around 500w even at max volume.
- midrange at 1Khz, peak of the response: -20db 0.025 watts, -10db 0.25 watts
Very efficient, so finally and since I don't think I'll ever go over -6db I ordered a second rekkr to put on the midranges, I'm confident they will be then totally silent.
For the woofers the xls is too noisy, tried the little fosi v3 with 48v and it's better, but I think their new v3 mono will be a better match, waiting for them now. Glad I didn't ordered the fusions!
So now I enjoy the new sound, it's different, but the more I tune the closer it gets.
I don't think I will get he clarity of the dipole, but I will just have to decide it I can accept the new compromise.
If ok I will then finish them a little better, paint the baffle, adjust few things, and then start to adapt the room, relocating the diffusors for example.
If convinced I could even rebuild them better, bigger.
One thing for sure, they will be easier to live with as I don't have big powerplants in the middle of the room anymore, better when receiving a bunch of people during summer.
Cats enjoyed them too, they don't care about the cones and I'm glad, just two more big things to climb on and chill 😉
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Absolutely stunning system. Bet it sounds awesome.
Nice room treatment also.
What is the type of the compression driver you use?
Nice room treatment also.
What is the type of the compression driver you use?
Very nice work.
I'm also planning to build a system with the PHL 3040. What's the volume of their cabinet? Good to hear you can use them as high as 1400Hz.
I'm also planning to build a system with the PHL 3040. What's the volume of their cabinet? Good to hear you can use them as high as 1400Hz.
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Very nice system!
I would definitely test more with damping. For midrange I would test lining all panels with thick felt 9-12 mm. Then add pure lampswool. I guess around 250 gram would fill it entirely (Same as Troels Gravesen use).
For Bass you would have standing waves. Should be rather clearly if you take out one woofer and speak/shout with head inside cabinet.
If you haven’t done so, I highly suggest you work with proper simulation, splicing near field and farfield. VituixCAD have excellent guide.
I would definitely test more with damping. For midrange I would test lining all panels with thick felt 9-12 mm. Then add pure lampswool. I guess around 250 gram would fill it entirely (Same as Troels Gravesen use).
For Bass you would have standing waves. Should be rather clearly if you take out one woofer and speak/shout with head inside cabinet.
If you haven’t done so, I highly suggest you work with proper simulation, splicing near field and farfield. VituixCAD have excellent guide.
Thank you guys!
It’s not there yet but getting better.
Forgot about the cd, it’s an 18 Sound ND1TP in 16 ohms.
I usually go with Faital but I just followed Nicolas’ advice for his horn.
The midrange box is around 15L, minus the 4L of the driver it’s near 11L.
It's fine for a final 24db slope but a little steep "naturally", I should probably have used bigger for more flexibility, or future potential drivers.
Just checked and I didn;t save them, but I’ll share more next time I tune.
Didn't try much higher than 1400Hz, just enough to merge into the horn response.
You’re right I should re-test again. It’s time consuming and a lot of screwing but agree it’s necessary.
I’ll share later the previous impedance sweeps w/ and w/o filling but nothing dramatic appeared, just a little smoother.
Maybe the mid box helps to break some of them, as it doesn’t use the full depth?
I just tried with some polyester cushion pads as it’s less messy and easier to get an exact amount in both.
Up to 8 in one box so around 3kgs, maybe too much but it didn't feel that tight.
I had in mind to treat it more like a sub than a regular speaker, so polyfill in the middle instead of lining the walls but maybe I’m wrong.
The midrange box is treated though, wool on walls + light polyfill.
I recently had to trash some old mastress, and removed all the reusable material before so now I have enough to test, wool, felt, dense or light polyester etc.
For Vituix I have everything to try, started to plan something in the garden for the smaller version but need to re-evaluate for these heavy boxes.
Or maybe just placed still on a tall wall and moving the mic is enough.
It’s not there yet but getting better.
Forgot about the cd, it’s an 18 Sound ND1TP in 16 ohms.
I usually go with Faital but I just followed Nicolas’ advice for his horn.
The midrange box is around 15L, minus the 4L of the driver it’s near 11L.
It's fine for a final 24db slope but a little steep "naturally", I should probably have used bigger for more flexibility, or future potential drivers.
Just checked and I didn;t save them, but I’ll share more next time I tune.
Didn't try much higher than 1400Hz, just enough to merge into the horn response.
You’re right I should re-test again. It’s time consuming and a lot of screwing but agree it’s necessary.
I’ll share later the previous impedance sweeps w/ and w/o filling but nothing dramatic appeared, just a little smoother.
Maybe the mid box helps to break some of them, as it doesn’t use the full depth?
I just tried with some polyester cushion pads as it’s less messy and easier to get an exact amount in both.
Up to 8 in one box so around 3kgs, maybe too much but it didn't feel that tight.
I had in mind to treat it more like a sub than a regular speaker, so polyfill in the middle instead of lining the walls but maybe I’m wrong.
The midrange box is treated though, wool on walls + light polyfill.
I recently had to trash some old mastress, and removed all the reusable material before so now I have enough to test, wool, felt, dense or light polyester etc.
For Vituix I have everything to try, started to plan something in the garden for the smaller version but need to re-evaluate for these heavy boxes.
Or maybe just placed still on a tall wall and moving the mic is enough.
It’s really pleasant to get something close to the original idea, I hope to get a nice finish with the horn and the box painted.
These big boxes were easier to build than the smaller ones, except for the weigth!
Also I finally could have gone bigger, I tilt them a bit and there’s then unused space behind, could probably add 100 more liters in oblique.
I didn't find many drivers for sealed, and they would still require 10x the volume for a low QTb.
Don't know if just 100 more could change the sound.
As I still miss dipole bass, can we really mimic a critically damped box with just the equivalent of an LT?
I always felt it didn’t sound the same with past experience, but recent improvements I got with last tuning could counter-prove the point.
Maybe I’m overthinking this, what’s the real constrain, the box or the room?
Also if needed I could still try ported with other drivers.
Just more time is needed.
These big boxes were easier to build than the smaller ones, except for the weigth!
Also I finally could have gone bigger, I tilt them a bit and there’s then unused space behind, could probably add 100 more liters in oblique.
I didn't find many drivers for sealed, and they would still require 10x the volume for a low QTb.
Don't know if just 100 more could change the sound.
As I still miss dipole bass, can we really mimic a critically damped box with just the equivalent of an LT?
I always felt it didn’t sound the same with past experience, but recent improvements I got with last tuning could counter-prove the point.
Maybe I’m overthinking this, what’s the real constrain, the box or the room?
Also if needed I could still try ported with other drivers.
Just more time is needed.
First of all: Nice sepakers.
It depends on what you want to achieve. If you just want to change thew system Q you might probably need a parametric EQ stage. If you want o change both Qtc and fc then you will need a LT or something that does the same.
Regards
Charles
Thank you Charles,
Right now I’m using biquads as I assumed it’s similar to a Linkwitz Transform, as soon as the final response is the same.
I read that in theory an LT gives the same sound, the same experience that a bigger box would give (Q=0.5 for example).
But so far it wasn’t the case in my past experiences, not only with these boxes.
But there’s so may parameters, especially the room.
I guess the only way to find out would be to build a 1000 liter box and test 😛
Right now I’m using biquads as I assumed it’s similar to a Linkwitz Transform, as soon as the final response is the same.
I read that in theory an LT gives the same sound, the same experience that a bigger box would give (Q=0.5 for example).
But so far it wasn’t the case in my past experiences, not only with these boxes.
But there’s so may parameters, especially the room.
I guess the only way to find out would be to build a 1000 liter box and test 😛
Hi, Congratulations ! Very big speaker ! And high efficiency too !
Make loudspeakers sound good is a difficult art.
Technically things are ok for me 🙂
Your 15" are closed to the ground, you should have a good level of bass. The bass step doesn't exists too with a very large baffle.
Make loudspeakers sound good is a difficult art.
Technically things are ok for me 🙂
Your 15" are closed to the ground, you should have a good level of bass. The bass step doesn't exists too with a very large baffle.
In the bass area, sure ! But in the midrange > 200Hz not convince dipole are better.
Merci Jerome69,
Yes bass difference is the most obvious.
At least I now have more impact, more than with dipole (though with in close proximity Hframes I had some impact too).
Above 200hz it will be hard to decide too, the midrange in dipole was fabulous imho.
The horn is more precise for sure (but that might just be the eq) and it should also appear more dynamic but not really.
I need to find a way to switch between both easily!
Yes bass difference is the most obvious.
At least I now have more impact, more than with dipole (though with in close proximity Hframes I had some impact too).
Above 200hz it will be hard to decide too, the midrange in dipole was fabulous imho.
The horn is more precise for sure (but that might just be the eq) and it should also appear more dynamic but not really.
I need to find a way to switch between both easily!
A great start. Continue adjusting it. Without looking at the driver box sims you may want to try an LR 12 db crossover on the woofer to mid around 300 hertz. The LR 12 is -6 at the crossover but it sums flat and l find l get a very nice blend with the JBL 4 ways.
Nicholas has some tech applications on his site for setting up the hypex amps. Ideally a LR24 db acoustic slope on the mid to the horn and time delay on the mid.
Which compression driver are you using?
Nicholas has some tech applications on his site for setting up the hypex amps. Ideally a LR24 db acoustic slope on the mid to the horn and time delay on the mid.
Which compression driver are you using?
Grosso, may I ask what kind of music do you prefer?
I had similar tests with 4X15" OB vs 4X15" CB and preferred the CB because of better pressurizing the room.
Not only spl is mentioned here.
In my opinion this compare is heavily music program related because OB sounded better with the most acoustic music and CB with electronic kind of music.
I had similar tests with 4X15" OB vs 4X15" CB and preferred the CB because of better pressurizing the room.
Not only spl is mentioned here.
In my opinion this compare is heavily music program related because OB sounded better with the most acoustic music and CB with electronic kind of music.
Thanks for the link and the info on the midrange. I'm going to contact Nicolas for my own project. Current plan is to use the rectangular RCF H100 but the Audio Horn shape will probably suit me better.
I'm thinking about a similar project with the PHL 3040 and 2x MNd6201 (that I already have)
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Will try, right now I’m focused on the mid/horn, switching between LR12 and 24, very similar result, but the LR12 is still less optimised in eq.
I didn't want the woofers to go too high, to keep male voice in the mid, also by habit because with previous system the dual opposed woofers were not clear near 300hz.
But now I could try, they’re on the same plane, ctc is 50cm so should be good, it would probably add some « thickness".
I don't have the hypex anymore, the CDs are the 18 Sound ND1TP in 16 ohms.
That’s the thing, I like both! haha
I mostly listen to Jazz and Electro, for example Benjamin Faugloire and Girls In Airport right now.
And the OB was great for both really, only styles it wasn't at its best were rock and metal.
But double bass was to die for.
Yes he was very helpful, clearly he’s a passionate, can't stop talking about sound!
I picked his horn for few reasons, the specs and graphs, the look, made here, plus Nicolas’ involvement in french diy.
Beautiful driver the Mnd6201! I hope you’ll share the project.
What did I say about the cats...
The 4350 crossed at 250 hertz with 12 db slopes. The 4355 crossed at 290 hertz with 18 db slopes. I agree dual woofers need to be accounted for.
If they can be located some LE14 woofers would be interesting. They don’t need much enclosure volume.
If they can be located some LE14 woofers would be interesting. They don’t need much enclosure volume.
Love it. Not far from something ive started some weeks ago, except these are 2x12 and no mid. Not going to derail your thread but I got inspired by the bracing and think i will do something similar as I started struggling with the assembly.
