Hi,
I have a pair of Diatone P610MB single-driver speakers (40 years anniversary) in wooden cabinets and I would like to add a super tweeter. I would appreciate your advice in-terms of what to chose (as I'm not an expert), a few questions:
thank you in-advance for your advice!
I have a pair of Diatone P610MB single-driver speakers (40 years anniversary) in wooden cabinets and I would like to add a super tweeter. I would appreciate your advice in-terms of what to chose (as I'm not an expert), a few questions:
- Any specific models that you would suggest?
- is super tweeter or compression driver preferred?
- shall I chose an Alnico tweeter (given that the Diatone drivers are Alnico)
- do I need to add an attenuator as well?
thank you in-advance for your advice!
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Thanks a lot, that's really useful!
I would really appreciate any guidance on the following:
I would really appreciate any guidance on the following:
- Any specific tweeter models that you would suggest?
- is super tweeter or compression driver preferred?
- shall I chose an Alnico tweeter (given that the Diatone drivers are Alnico)
- do I need to add an attenuator as well?
What is the MB model's sensitivity?
I don't have Diatone but many times wrote about my (presumably faithful) Orgue clone with rolled-off highs:
(follow links therein)
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...range-needs-super-tweeter.415360/post-7743740
I don't have a specific supertweeter recommendation because my clone driver is simultaneouly ultra smooth/detailed/sweet, more so than anything else I have. Feels almost "wrong" to change its character. Whereas, the Fostex F120A alnico also rolled-off, but I had no qualms to add a Monitor Audio (anodized) gold-dome AlMg tweeter or an electrostatic supertweeter. Also the Orgue P-610S being 96dB sensitive limited my options. I used two unorthodox pairings: (1) MantraSound Naturelle dipole tweeter with Audio Consulting XO (2-way hearsay 1st-order); (2) Correct P-610 ferrite variant by the same engineer as the Orgue clone. I think, a really good big-alnico vintage paper-cone tweeter could also work well, if 15khz is sufficient. (These also are pretty rare.) My recently-accumulated frugal hi-fi tweeter collection isn't in the same location as the Orgue, unfortunately. Come weekend maybe I can bring & try something.
I don't have Diatone but many times wrote about my (presumably faithful) Orgue clone with rolled-off highs:
(follow links therein)
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...range-needs-super-tweeter.415360/post-7743740
I don't have a specific supertweeter recommendation because my clone driver is simultaneouly ultra smooth/detailed/sweet, more so than anything else I have. Feels almost "wrong" to change its character. Whereas, the Fostex F120A alnico also rolled-off, but I had no qualms to add a Monitor Audio (anodized) gold-dome AlMg tweeter or an electrostatic supertweeter. Also the Orgue P-610S being 96dB sensitive limited my options. I used two unorthodox pairings: (1) MantraSound Naturelle dipole tweeter with Audio Consulting XO (2-way hearsay 1st-order); (2) Correct P-610 ferrite variant by the same engineer as the Orgue clone. I think, a really good big-alnico vintage paper-cone tweeter could also work well, if 15khz is sufficient. (These also are pretty rare.) My recently-accumulated frugal hi-fi tweeter collection isn't in the same location as the Orgue, unfortunately. Come weekend maybe I can bring & try something.
Hi,
It seems inappropriate to add a tweeter to this magnificent full range speaker. On the one hand it will be difficult to find a good candidate for marriage, and on the other hand reproduction will certainly be unbalanced with an emphasis placed on high frequencies to the detriment of the lowest (see law of 400,000).
This solution could ultimately harm the overall balance of musical reproduction. In other words, the best is sometimes the enemy of the good!
It seems inappropriate to add a tweeter to this magnificent full range speaker. On the one hand it will be difficult to find a good candidate for marriage, and on the other hand reproduction will certainly be unbalanced with an emphasis placed on high frequencies to the detriment of the lowest (see law of 400,000).
This solution could ultimately harm the overall balance of musical reproduction. In other words, the best is sometimes the enemy of the good!
The MB is spec'ed 8ohm 90dB so for the sake of knowledge just try any tweeter of at least 90dB sensitivity, 1st-order high pass capacitor in series. The formula is -3dB at frequency 160khz/impedance/uF but in practice just have a bunch of small capacitors and parallel them to add uF. The key to listen/test is to aim tweeter axially at one ear from front-L/R not straight front nor straight to the side. And deliberately move the tweeter front/back relative to the mid-fullrange, while playing music or a test-tone at the filter frequency, to align their acoustic centers (source of sound); when found it is obvious (and precisely repeatable).
There's really no substitute for experimenting with different materials and crossover values.
I use alligator clip-wire and electrician's twist caps. Unless one driver is much more sensitive than the other, try to avoid resistors -- they add coarseness to the sound.
There's really no substitute for experimenting with different materials and crossover values.
I use alligator clip-wire and electrician's twist caps. Unless one driver is much more sensitive than the other, try to avoid resistors -- they add coarseness to the sound.
Pray tell, how well do these work? They are found (CMA, CMD) in various state of (dis)repair on idlefish market.
Understood and thank you for your message. Could you recommend any specific super tweeter models you would consider (the sensitivity of my speakers is measured at 91db), shall I prioritize a super tweeter or a compression driver? An Alnico version? Thanks again!
The idea is adding a super tweeter. I’ve heard a case where a super tweeter was used and sound was improved (there was more air), so that triggered me to experiment. Why do you say that it might be difficult to find one that fits?
It’s a similar case with front carbon blocks, the measured sensitivity is 91db. The vintage paper come tweeter sound interesting: could you give me an example?
- Any specific models that you would suggest? Dayton Audio PTMini-6, will it suit? 91.5 dB. Otherwise the Mini 8
- is super tweeter or compression driver preferred? you mean the horn? You can try a shallow one, properly named 'waveguide', many tweeters have already that.
- shall I chose an Alnico tweeter (given that the Diatone drivers are Alnico) The final result matters, if you don't have a clue what's inside the 'black box', who cares? On the contrary, the aestethics seem to point on the materials such as precious ones like diamond, berillyum, gold. But those are sked to reproduce also 2 kHz, so different animals.
- do I need to add an attenuator as well? Hmmmm...that's the point. The Diatone has already an attenuator inside, it's the mass of the membrane. For the working band we are interested, the end of the spectrum where wavelenght are little (in the 1/100 m range), I'd expect that most of the tweeters fail, and if you cut the lower band - a crossover is necessary, so think of it before making a purchase- quite nothing remains to be heard ( I guess). I guess also that you can take the one capacitor route...
Indeed just looking to add a capacitor
So a Piezo is an indirect tweeter? What would be the advantage of using that vs a conventional one? I've read a bit about Piezos and I understand that they require proper filtering.
@PeterKK
for the indirect soundfield a tweeter can help especially with fullranges.
With this you do not disturb the on axis frequency response. Just keep it.
Now take care to take a tweeter which does not do anything below 5khz, 18db filtering, if necessary.
Piezos usually drop like a stone below 4khz.
There are threads for proper filtering piezos here in the forum. Just take one to the back side of the box, let it point up or towards the sides or to the back wall. Usually a longer way to your ear is better then it does not interfere with the direct sound.
Take a piezo put 10 ohms in line, 100 ohms between plus and minus of the tweeter and 0,33uF in line with the tweeter, so you have a real crossover, no load to the amplifier and some extra sparkle and attack.
You can also use sophisticated explored filtering for special piezos which give you acceptable linear response, but it should do nothing below 5khz.
Then in a listening test you turn once the phase of tweeter what sound better to you. Keep the better one.
If you put the tweeter on the top of the box facing the ceilink than maybe put some carboard before the tweeter so it does not interfere with the direct sound of your diatone fullrange driver.
for the indirect soundfield a tweeter can help especially with fullranges.
With this you do not disturb the on axis frequency response. Just keep it.
Now take care to take a tweeter which does not do anything below 5khz, 18db filtering, if necessary.
Piezos usually drop like a stone below 4khz.
There are threads for proper filtering piezos here in the forum. Just take one to the back side of the box, let it point up or towards the sides or to the back wall. Usually a longer way to your ear is better then it does not interfere with the direct sound.
Take a piezo put 10 ohms in line, 100 ohms between plus and minus of the tweeter and 0,33uF in line with the tweeter, so you have a real crossover, no load to the amplifier and some extra sparkle and attack.
You can also use sophisticated explored filtering for special piezos which give you acceptable linear response, but it should do nothing below 5khz.
Then in a listening test you turn once the phase of tweeter what sound better to you. Keep the better one.
If you put the tweeter on the top of the box facing the ceilink than maybe put some carboard before the tweeter so it does not interfere with the direct sound of your diatone fullrange driver.
It has been 100°F 100% humidity for some time and I just couldn't "get moving" during the weekend. However I had to be up really early today (Monday already) so squeezed in two tweeters before returning to the city. Again my Orgue P-610S was 96dB and I didn't have time to bi-amp or try resistor attenuation. Only tried single capacitor 3.3uF or (better cap) 2.7uF, first-order -3dB at ~7khz. My retreat is large with 2-level-high ceiling. Here goes:
A pair of ~2" unbranded NOS 8ohm alnico paper-cone probably ~2dB less sensitive but reaching beyond my hearing range; nice improvement, didn't quite integrate. Bigger cap and/or small boost needed.
A pair of vintage DrBohm oval 8ohm alnico paper-cone ~2dB too sensitive but not reaching quite as high so there was residual roll-off. Resistor/shelf would help a bit, but not totally necessary, as integration was excellent.
Both had much wider directivity/dispersion than just the 6" fullrange. With the DrBohm oval lying major-axis horizontal, while walking around I could not detect-by-ear violin tonality changes/anomaly, as long as I could see them unobstructed, even from second floor perch or wrap-around side-balconies. The 6" alone precisely on-axis rolled-off high violin, and much worse even slightly off-axis.
So these two vintage tweeters passed my tonality/dispersion tests, assuming slight tweaking. They came close to passing my imaging/holography test, once acoustic centers/phase were aligned (by testing 7khz tone and music-through-one-speaker-side), the smaller tweeter a little better. Finally, neither had the power/extension to give much "air"; perhaps it would take omni-multi-tweeters in a much smaller room than my retreat.
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My recommendation would be to try a few different sounds: alnico like above; good soft-dome; parted-out AlMg anodized-gold Monitor Audio (I think other hard domes would be very difficult to integrate); possibly AMT.
Compression/horn not called for, given the MB was only 91dB sensitive and reached at least 6-7khz without issues. But whatever tweeter or super-tweeter has to be really good!
Compression/horn not called for, given the MB was only 91dB sensitive and reached at least 6-7khz without issues. But whatever tweeter or super-tweeter has to be really good!
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Thanks a lot for doing this. So vintage could be a way to go, would tou mind sharing how to look for a vintage paper tweeter-any brands models or what to look for?
Also nice setup! Do you mind sharing what are the rest of your single driver speakers?
Thanks again!
Can you shop on eBay Europe (especially from de fr uk it)?
The two other speakers in the pics are Fostex F120A in planet10 designed Fonkensteen; Lowther PM2A ticonal in classic Fidelio. I've had these over a dozen years ('steen cabs finished not too long ago). The unmounted pair of drivers are Hicastle (Taiwan brand), virtual sonic clone of my PM6A drivers. All can be searched in the forum. I started diy only since Covid....
The two other speakers in the pics are Fostex F120A in planet10 designed Fonkensteen; Lowther PM2A ticonal in classic Fidelio. I've had these over a dozen years ('steen cabs finished not too long ago). The unmounted pair of drivers are Hicastle (Taiwan brand), virtual sonic clone of my PM6A drivers. All can be searched in the forum. I started diy only since Covid....
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