Hi all!
Summary:
Looking for advice on a kitchen music only system please, specifically, which driver size, model and choice of enclosure as laid out below. Also a sanity check on what I am doing generally please. Especially regarding 4 ohm drivers, choice of amp, room acoustics and treatment, positioning etc, likely power. Also bearing in mind the awkward positioning and potential use of 8 inch drivers limiting extension, should I be considering a port, or is that just asking for trouble?
Current set up
We have recently had some kitchen work done, and I have now been able to add some cable and speakers to the tops of the cabinets in the kitchen, to support two existing speakers in the adjoining open plan dining room.
The current set up is Wiim Pro to Echo Link (for the built in sub crossover which lets me high pass the mains so they are not trying to produce so much bass that they stop sounding lively) to 2x stereo amps to 4x JBL control one speakers. Due to aesthetics, they are not set up in stereo imaging configuration with space between them, but paired at opposite corners of the kitchen- dining room, facing each other quite high up. Each of the two corners has a left and right speaker.
It actually sounds pretty good for some tracks, but the high pass is set quite high for these speakers at 100hz, as they are especially weak below this point, -10db at 80hz with a port. I like a really punchy sound with lots of power around 60-100hz, so I'd like to do something different.
Space and budget are in short supply unfortunately, so I am hoping I can just add one, two or three subwoofers to provide for the low end. I have a spare pair of Monitor Audio Bronze bx1 bookshelf speakers which sound much better than the Control 1s to my ears, so I might try to get an extra pair and use them instead of the smaller JBL speakers, but for now they cannot go into the system as the tweeters clash tonally with the JBLs.
I can conceivably add up to three subwoofers to the system, but can probably only have time and money capacity for one over the next few weeks. There is waf space for the following:
1. Dining room sub
On a bookshelf under the bookshelf speakers. Room for a 20 to 40 litre enclosure with up to 10 inch driver.
2. Kitchen sub position #1
Behind a wine rack on top of the kitchen cupboard. Roughly equal distance between both sets of speakers, but located in a corner, behind a breeze block and plasterboard cupboard wall.
Room for one or perhaps two 8 inch drivers in a standard cuboid, rectangular shape at approximately 1.25 litres, not including driver volume or bracing. Potentially room for a decent size port with one driver.
Or, room for a wedge shaped enclosure, with a larger 10 inch driver on the slope so it fits in the space.
3. Kitchen sub position #2
in between the kitchen's JBL control one speakers but probably unsightly if they are eventually upgraded to something bigger like the bx1s: 0.5 litre box, up to 8 inch driver
Given the smaller drivers and awkward placement, with potential for interaction with kitchen cabinets/shelving, I was planning on sealed subs as opposed to ported.
The measurements allow for an inch or so of isolation slate and foam /rubber/blue tack underneath the subs, so as to reduce interaction with the cabinets.
Amp
I picked up an extra Fosi Za3 in the recent prime day sales. I was planning to use this with a 4 ohm driver or driver's where it will hopefully be able to push 160w on two channels at 4ohms, up to 200w peak, or 200w single channel with up to 300w peak. It is able to drive 2ohms apparently, but how reliably and for how long, I don't know.
I'd like to use the Fosi or even two of them of necessary, as I am using the same for the mains, it was only around £110, it's small, and it will work with 12v triggers from the Wiim pro. But if it will be too underpowered, I can return it, and look to buy a used power amp like the Crown 1502 for example.
Room size
Kitchen size is 5x3mx2.2m, and adjoining dining room is 4.5x3.5x 2.5m. It's all open plan.
Room corrections/goal
It's a room with many hard surfaces. I built three double-size sound absorbers a couple of years ago to improve things. Two are 2 inches deep, and one is three inches deep. 45kg/m density iirc. The kitchen section is still very hard and echoes somewhat. I could add a massive ~ 6 inch+ bass trap behind the wine rack if I don't put the sub there. Perhaps a small one AND a sub if I keep it square shaped and 8" driver as opposed to wedge/10". I could also add small absorbers behind the speakers if that would be worth the effort?
I plan to use the custom 10 band dsp in the Wiim Pro to tame any awful peaks and echos. I am also not averse to cutting out most of the signal below 40 or even 60 hz if necessary.
Ideally, I'd like tight, punchy bass up to around 88db at 3m, nearly flat to 30hz. But 40hz would be okay too, especially if 30hz is somewhat audible.
Woodwork
I enjoy wood work but am only a novice/at best intermediate, I have power tools including router and would aim to make any visible enclosures look something like this🙁 using MDF painted to match the kitchen, and a routed oak glue-up piece to decorate the baffle). House of Marley Get Together Duo Bluetooth Bookshelf Speakers Black - Sustainably Crafted, Wireless Turntable Speaker, Mains Powered / 25 Hours Battery Life, Aux in, High Definition Bluetooth Speaker https://amzn.eu/d/0cZsxv8l
The one behind the wine rack though would potentially be a basic box, which is frankly appealing, as I could build it very quickly and get some bass in the room without worrying about appearances.
Drivers and qtc
I've been looking at Focal flax range of drivers. They're quite pricey, but model nicely in winisd. I'd be interested in anything cheaper that can still get me a decent qtc in the size enclosures available to me, and preferably those that can be powered by my Fosi Za3, so probably 4ohms or 8ohm x2 in parallel for a 4 ohm load, if I've understood that correctly.
I am aiming for a qtc of 0.7 or below. I am used to a big subwoofer in our main room, which is a 4.5 cubic feet Eminence lab 12c tuned to 27hz. Without a port, it has a qtc around 0.5 or 0.6 I think.
Thanks for your advice!
Summary:
Looking for advice on a kitchen music only system please, specifically, which driver size, model and choice of enclosure as laid out below. Also a sanity check on what I am doing generally please. Especially regarding 4 ohm drivers, choice of amp, room acoustics and treatment, positioning etc, likely power. Also bearing in mind the awkward positioning and potential use of 8 inch drivers limiting extension, should I be considering a port, or is that just asking for trouble?
Current set up
We have recently had some kitchen work done, and I have now been able to add some cable and speakers to the tops of the cabinets in the kitchen, to support two existing speakers in the adjoining open plan dining room.
The current set up is Wiim Pro to Echo Link (for the built in sub crossover which lets me high pass the mains so they are not trying to produce so much bass that they stop sounding lively) to 2x stereo amps to 4x JBL control one speakers. Due to aesthetics, they are not set up in stereo imaging configuration with space between them, but paired at opposite corners of the kitchen- dining room, facing each other quite high up. Each of the two corners has a left and right speaker.
It actually sounds pretty good for some tracks, but the high pass is set quite high for these speakers at 100hz, as they are especially weak below this point, -10db at 80hz with a port. I like a really punchy sound with lots of power around 60-100hz, so I'd like to do something different.
Space and budget are in short supply unfortunately, so I am hoping I can just add one, two or three subwoofers to provide for the low end. I have a spare pair of Monitor Audio Bronze bx1 bookshelf speakers which sound much better than the Control 1s to my ears, so I might try to get an extra pair and use them instead of the smaller JBL speakers, but for now they cannot go into the system as the tweeters clash tonally with the JBLs.
I can conceivably add up to three subwoofers to the system, but can probably only have time and money capacity for one over the next few weeks. There is waf space for the following:
1. Dining room sub
On a bookshelf under the bookshelf speakers. Room for a 20 to 40 litre enclosure with up to 10 inch driver.
2. Kitchen sub position #1
Behind a wine rack on top of the kitchen cupboard. Roughly equal distance between both sets of speakers, but located in a corner, behind a breeze block and plasterboard cupboard wall.
Room for one or perhaps two 8 inch drivers in a standard cuboid, rectangular shape at approximately 1.25 litres, not including driver volume or bracing. Potentially room for a decent size port with one driver.
Or, room for a wedge shaped enclosure, with a larger 10 inch driver on the slope so it fits in the space.
3. Kitchen sub position #2
in between the kitchen's JBL control one speakers but probably unsightly if they are eventually upgraded to something bigger like the bx1s: 0.5 litre box, up to 8 inch driver
Given the smaller drivers and awkward placement, with potential for interaction with kitchen cabinets/shelving, I was planning on sealed subs as opposed to ported.
The measurements allow for an inch or so of isolation slate and foam /rubber/blue tack underneath the subs, so as to reduce interaction with the cabinets.
Amp
I picked up an extra Fosi Za3 in the recent prime day sales. I was planning to use this with a 4 ohm driver or driver's where it will hopefully be able to push 160w on two channels at 4ohms, up to 200w peak, or 200w single channel with up to 300w peak. It is able to drive 2ohms apparently, but how reliably and for how long, I don't know.
I'd like to use the Fosi or even two of them of necessary, as I am using the same for the mains, it was only around £110, it's small, and it will work with 12v triggers from the Wiim pro. But if it will be too underpowered, I can return it, and look to buy a used power amp like the Crown 1502 for example.
Room size
Kitchen size is 5x3mx2.2m, and adjoining dining room is 4.5x3.5x 2.5m. It's all open plan.
Room corrections/goal
It's a room with many hard surfaces. I built three double-size sound absorbers a couple of years ago to improve things. Two are 2 inches deep, and one is three inches deep. 45kg/m density iirc. The kitchen section is still very hard and echoes somewhat. I could add a massive ~ 6 inch+ bass trap behind the wine rack if I don't put the sub there. Perhaps a small one AND a sub if I keep it square shaped and 8" driver as opposed to wedge/10". I could also add small absorbers behind the speakers if that would be worth the effort?
I plan to use the custom 10 band dsp in the Wiim Pro to tame any awful peaks and echos. I am also not averse to cutting out most of the signal below 40 or even 60 hz if necessary.
Ideally, I'd like tight, punchy bass up to around 88db at 3m, nearly flat to 30hz. But 40hz would be okay too, especially if 30hz is somewhat audible.
Woodwork
I enjoy wood work but am only a novice/at best intermediate, I have power tools including router and would aim to make any visible enclosures look something like this🙁 using MDF painted to match the kitchen, and a routed oak glue-up piece to decorate the baffle). House of Marley Get Together Duo Bluetooth Bookshelf Speakers Black - Sustainably Crafted, Wireless Turntable Speaker, Mains Powered / 25 Hours Battery Life, Aux in, High Definition Bluetooth Speaker https://amzn.eu/d/0cZsxv8l
The one behind the wine rack though would potentially be a basic box, which is frankly appealing, as I could build it very quickly and get some bass in the room without worrying about appearances.
Drivers and qtc
I've been looking at Focal flax range of drivers. They're quite pricey, but model nicely in winisd. I'd be interested in anything cheaper that can still get me a decent qtc in the size enclosures available to me, and preferably those that can be powered by my Fosi Za3, so probably 4ohms or 8ohm x2 in parallel for a 4 ohm load, if I've understood that correctly.
I am aiming for a qtc of 0.7 or below. I am used to a big subwoofer in our main room, which is a 4.5 cubic feet Eminence lab 12c tuned to 27hz. Without a port, it has a qtc around 0.5 or 0.6 I think.
Thanks for your advice!
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I think you'd be better off using DSP for bass correction instead of trying to do a bass trap.
While DSP room correction works well in the bass range, it will not help you with echos (unless you are doing complex DSP using multiple drivers and controlled directivity). A more practical approach for most is the one you're already on: significant area of acoustical absorption. More of your 2-inch-ish absorber panels for the kitchen would be good. There are several companies that sell acoustical absorbers with whatever art or photograph you want printed on them. That might open up some possibilities.
Even an inch-thick absorber or high NRC ceiling tile system would help a lot. There are tensioned fabric ceiling systems that can hide deeper absorbers.
No idea what your budget or install leeway are like, but you can get nice large area diffuse light and absorption in the same unit also.
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Thanks for commenting.
The ceiling treatment is a good idea but would have no waf.
I've adequately (for me at least) solved the reflections with the mids and lows by embracing them, that is, I've pointed the speakers more at a 90 degree angle to rebound off the ceiling early, avoiding the cabinet and sending the sound downwards and towards the treated room.
I've bought a Focal 8 inch P20 FE on sale. I'm going to put it in a (2x the recommended) 40 litre cabinet with a 30hz slot port.
18mm MDF with a double baffle. 103cm wide by about 24x23cm height and depth. I'll use a steep high pass filter below tuning.
Winisd says it should reach 30hz flat with a max volume around 105db at 1m, for 200 ish 4ohm watts, which I would be very happy with, if that is the room response. If it sounds awful, I'll move to plan B!
The ceiling treatment is a good idea but would have no waf.
I've adequately (for me at least) solved the reflections with the mids and lows by embracing them, that is, I've pointed the speakers more at a 90 degree angle to rebound off the ceiling early, avoiding the cabinet and sending the sound downwards and towards the treated room.
I've bought a Focal 8 inch P20 FE on sale. I'm going to put it in a (2x the recommended) 40 litre cabinet with a 30hz slot port.
18mm MDF with a double baffle. 103cm wide by about 24x23cm height and depth. I'll use a steep high pass filter below tuning.
Winisd says it should reach 30hz flat with a max volume around 105db at 1m, for 200 ish 4ohm watts, which I would be very happy with, if that is the room response. If it sounds awful, I'll move to plan B!
Probably not that relevant to your case since construction is basically done (maybe that's what you meant), but cosmetically the WAF can be off the charts with some of this stuff.
https://barrisolusa.com/stretch-ceiling/stretch-ceilings-range/acoustic-light/photos-of-realizations
Thanks. Yes that looks good, I can see some dispersion materials, but I can't even work out where the absorbers are in those photos. Not wanting to do building work though as you surmised.
Also I meant to say the mids and highs are not too bad not mids and lows; I have no idea about the lows yet, but it won't be long hopefully.
All the pieces are cut for the sub now. Will hopefully cut and rout holes and glue up tomorrow.
Also I meant to say the mids and highs are not too bad not mids and lows; I have no idea about the lows yet, but it won't be long hopefully.
All the pieces are cut for the sub now. Will hopefully cut and rout holes and glue up tomorrow.
This post is more for other people at this point, since you're beyond it in your project.
Ceilings are a good spot to put absorption, but in most cases are something best addressed early in construction. I've known a couple people that wished they would have done it that way. When houses were smaller, more divided, and more absorptive, echos were less of a concern, so I don't think the potential problem registers to many until it's too late.
The acoustical absorbers/lighting are integrated in the images above. I'm sure the price is high since it's commercial lighting, but someone that is handy could probably do something similar with more pedestrian materials. I've seen DIY diffuse LED ceilings, so those are basically halfway there.
https://barrisolusa.com/brochures/26/pdf/barrisol-lumiere-acoustique.pdf
Ceilings are a good spot to put absorption, but in most cases are something best addressed early in construction. I've known a couple people that wished they would have done it that way. When houses were smaller, more divided, and more absorptive, echos were less of a concern, so I don't think the potential problem registers to many until it's too late.
The acoustical absorbers/lighting are integrated in the images above. I'm sure the price is high since it's commercial lighting, but someone that is handy could probably do something similar with more pedestrian materials. I've seen DIY diffuse LED ceilings, so those are basically halfway there.
https://barrisolusa.com/brochures/26/pdf/barrisol-lumiere-acoustique.pdf
Those diffuse ceiling lights look great. I'm a big fan of diffuse lighting generally.
We already have spot lights so it would mean quite a bit of rewiring. More diffuse lights would be great though.
I suppose you could just install a typically rock wool absorber, say 2 to 4 inches. Wrap it in something to stop the stray fibres, then, run a few LED channels underneath it? It does seem like the ones you linked to are working some other way I don't understand.
Presumably, you would also need acoustically transparent material that is also suitable for lighting...do you know of anything suitable?
I'm pretty sure I can't afford one off the shelf right now, it would probably be more expensive than the kitchen.
I will plan to add some absorbers behind the speakers though.
We already have spot lights so it would mean quite a bit of rewiring. More diffuse lights would be great though.
I suppose you could just install a typically rock wool absorber, say 2 to 4 inches. Wrap it in something to stop the stray fibres, then, run a few LED channels underneath it? It does seem like the ones you linked to are working some other way I don't understand.
Presumably, you would also need acoustically transparent material that is also suitable for lighting...do you know of anything suitable?
I'm pretty sure I can't afford one off the shelf right now, it would probably be more expensive than the kitchen.
I will plan to add some absorbers behind the speakers though.
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The more surface area of absorber you can add, the better. Starting with what's easy certainly makes sense.
Off the top of my head, I don't know of any common fabric specifically designed for acoustical transparency and light diffusion, but if you are willing to accept a little transmission loss, I think many different kinds of white fabric could be used. White speaker grille cloth lets through a moderate amount of light (you learn that quickly when you try to use it for speaker grilles - a lot of stuff shows through it).
If you want to do something very wide, your choices will be more limited, obviously.
Solserene from Owens Corning was one of the stretched fabric systems, but I'm not sure if it's available anymore. This video shows it being used a few different ways.
At 3:45, you get an accidental backlighting of the fabric during its installation:
Similar systems are available from other suppliers
They don't have a lot of technical info on their site about how their film absorber works. From what I can gather, it's a thin plastic membrane that's perforated 1% with 0.1 mm holes. Seems like this approach:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0003682X1730275X
A microperforated panel (MPP) absorber has become widely known as the most attractive alternative for the next generation sound absorbing material [1]. The MPP is first proposed by Maa, who has established its theoretical basis and design principle [2], [3], [4]. The MPP absorber is a thin panel or membrane less than 1 mm thick with perforation of less than 1% perforation ratio with air-back cavity and a rigid backing [5]. The fundamental absorbing mechanism of the MPP absorber, which is typically backed by an air cavity and a rigid wall, is Helmholtz-resonance absorption [6]. This type of absorption is mainly due to frictional loss in the air flow of the apertures [6]. With the rapid development of processing technologies and computational methods, MPP sound absorption theory has also been further development [7], [8], [9]. But the sound absorption bandwidth of the single-leaf MPP is usually limited to about two octaves [2], [3], [4]. In order to heighten the absorption property of MPP, Maa has proposed a double-leaf MPP backed by a rigid-back wall with an air-cavity [10]. Sakagami et al. have studied the sound absorption characteristics of a single-leaf MPP absorber backed by a porous absorbent layer and a double-leaf structure with MPP and permeable membrane [11], [12].
https://acoustics.asn.au/conference_proceedings/AAS2019/papers/p75.pdf
That's a good idea just putting together a lighting install with regular white acoustic material. If the lights were powerful enough, it would still potentially work, but it could end up being costly, and a little bit of a disappointment. Not to mention, I think just paying for the electricity for the lights might be fairly expensive as they would have to be powerful.
I actually have lots of acoustic transparent material left over in the 3 colours I already have, Dark grey, light blue grey and mustard yellow.
I think I will paint the other side of the kitchen dark grey and add a couple extra absorbers like you suggest. It will be in a few weeks though probably, and I will hopefully also do something 2-3 inches behind the speakers at the same time.
I actually have lots of acoustic transparent material left over in the 3 colours I already have, Dark grey, light blue grey and mustard yellow.
I think I will paint the other side of the kitchen dark grey and add a couple extra absorbers like you suggest. It will be in a few weeks though probably, and I will hopefully also do something 2-3 inches behind the speakers at the same time.
On any custom lighting like this, it's always a good idea to mock something up at medium scale before committing to the full install. Stuff doesn't always do what you expect. And the diffuse ceiling systems tend to have A LOT of LEDs in them just to even out the light. LEDs are getting cheaper all the time, but it's still a bit of an undertaking to do something like that.
