I've been a "Cedar Artist" as I refer to myself, for 14 years now. Specializing in Cedar art furniture primarily for Gatlinburg/Pigeon Forge TN cabin rentals and residential homes in the area too. (relative to the question and topic) and this time and experience has intertwined with my other hobby , since 1985, I've been an audio hobbyist and cabinet designer /builder. When I moved to TN and discovered the "regional specific" eastern red cedar, as it grows only in certain states, and while related to typical and more common western cedar, I've not truly found any specific studies compiled of data or results of anyone's experiments on the acoustics of the cedar as a whole, or in the "red heart wood inner wood" or using "only the white exterior pulp wood" as opposed, being that most everyone focuses on the red portion, of any cedar, leaving the softwood white out completely. The red in er heart wood has a harder, more crisp strength to it, but the white portion when properly dried, has a lighter "non sappy" appeal so much that I cut out my largest portions of it, and with some being over 8" to 12" by 6 feet, there is more than enough for me to do some trials.
Now, I am aware that many of you with build experience may or will say that no matter what, eastern or not, red or white, it's not acoustical wood for audio cabinets. And I humbly inquire the results of the tests you've collected, specifically on both and each, and the different things conducted in efforts to obtain best results. And if you haven't, please hear me out. Because I have recently conducted many, on both and each color, and with varying thickness and with/without assorted wood conditioners and resins for adding strength and resonance, for adding or taking the varied hardness of "limbknots" where for example, a cabinet side with several of them has an equivalency of many hardwoods density, and a side without any has a very different result. Good or not depending on your desired resonance and acoustical properties.
So, my new friends, I ask 1 thing before you pass any "too negative or dismissive objections" , that you please allow the possibility that with proper preparation, and specifics that I've given to the wide variety of testing, and conditioning, that it could very well be a " not better, not worse, but different" kind of very good, and highly acoustical advantage in acquiring specific and in general great sounding cabinets. If , like myself, the many people who desire, and in my case, truly enjoy the look of that "Wild-Fire" reds, oranges, tan, and whites of true eastern cedar boards when using the whole board of a cut tree. And even a cabinet with sides having solid white to red and back to white. Cured to a moisture content specific, with exact thickness tests and all. I know about birch, MDF and standard plywood. Who don't. But what if I gave you some samples, and see for yourself if you build, and if you don't, then at least let your ears hear a live , real demonstration not altered by phone or PC mics and speakers not allowing for the true quality to be known like you get with a live listening session. I'm not out to sell anything to you, other than sell the possibility that there may actually be someone out here that took the time most don't have to thoroughly test a multitude of samples of the wood in enough ways to definitively say, every reasonable way this wood can be tested to be absolutely sure if it's abilities or restrictions are known for any and all acoustic characteristics it can possess , is done. And I do welcome all builders and members comments, and just an idea, let's be nice, friends are always in short supply who are open and transparent with hard and long toiled hours spent to just give away the results , only to get heckled by "Yondoodle Pigglybuck" from whothcares Idaho when their knowledge of anything cabinet-wise comes from something like :Snoop Dogs book :"Yo Yo Yo You can bild-da-dopest car box! Vershizel!! , (and other projects while you burn a Doobie" )
Lol. But seriously, I've built 6 sets of cabinets, mainly for my customers who have a cabin full of cedar furniture and wanted their stereo cabinets to match. Naturally my very first few were a thin laminate of cedar overlaid on a nice but common cabinet as customer expected. But when I was asked to rebuild an entire acoustic piano, by removing it's wood from harp, and replacing every piece with cedar, so he would have the first ever eastern red cedar piano, at least to date, I've never seen one anywhere till mine. , but possibly could exist I got the notion to do my own cabs in the wood I live, but will only pursue " if" my tests prove it's a viable option if the sound came close or equal to a moderate to upper end (and possibly better) sound quality, even if I try out 1000 experiments and tests, plus, get the opinions of more audio enthusiasts.
This is where any of you come in to play, if interested and not to far away from Mooresburg TN, near Morristown TN, and Knoxville, Sevierville area, ect. My workshop/studio is open to anyone willing to stop by, and if you can't, I certainly would let anyone "borrow" a single small speaker "if" they want it shipped , they pay that cost, but absolutely not a sale, as there is no cost to you trying it out and fill out an opinion and idea letter and just mail the letter with ideas or opinion on it to me. After all, my ears hear one sound and yours may hear it better or not. But it's only YOUR opinions, the audiophiles, that can't best determine this. (My wife humms happily to a mono 4" old crackled speaker that is all the way left and the tone adjustment is her big " fine tuning the sound good like". Lol. So ya, great woman, lousy opinion on audio. She literally learned that speakers have " magnetic properties " when she got with me. So .. ya.. need anyone local and if interested and your not local, I'd love to send ya a free small example, now it's about the cabinets wood, so ill send a small cabinet, and you'd just need to put whatever drivers you have in it, and hopefully use only better drivers than cheap. Yes I do know drivers are matched to the cabinets, and it's a mated pair that's best, but, I can't send free cabinet AND drivers that obviously makes shipping heavier. And I'll provide the optimal range of driver specs to best test it. I AM NOT OUT AFTER Anyone's ADDRESSES ! P. O. Boxes, business address is fine, I am not a shyster, or whatever. Lol. God, after a post like this, if I were, sheesh, a bit overkill for a con man isn't it? I only want honest opinions and options for improvement "if" any. But I have a lot of confidence in its above the norm or expected level of results.
And if none are interested here, no problem, I'll still get my local opinions and let ya know the results. And when I can, I'll post pics of these beauties. Tha ja for your ear, your time, and hopefully, your "nice" responses. But there's always 1, (or5) in every bunch right? Lol
James B.
Now, I am aware that many of you with build experience may or will say that no matter what, eastern or not, red or white, it's not acoustical wood for audio cabinets. And I humbly inquire the results of the tests you've collected, specifically on both and each, and the different things conducted in efforts to obtain best results. And if you haven't, please hear me out. Because I have recently conducted many, on both and each color, and with varying thickness and with/without assorted wood conditioners and resins for adding strength and resonance, for adding or taking the varied hardness of "limbknots" where for example, a cabinet side with several of them has an equivalency of many hardwoods density, and a side without any has a very different result. Good or not depending on your desired resonance and acoustical properties.
So, my new friends, I ask 1 thing before you pass any "too negative or dismissive objections" , that you please allow the possibility that with proper preparation, and specifics that I've given to the wide variety of testing, and conditioning, that it could very well be a " not better, not worse, but different" kind of very good, and highly acoustical advantage in acquiring specific and in general great sounding cabinets. If , like myself, the many people who desire, and in my case, truly enjoy the look of that "Wild-Fire" reds, oranges, tan, and whites of true eastern cedar boards when using the whole board of a cut tree. And even a cabinet with sides having solid white to red and back to white. Cured to a moisture content specific, with exact thickness tests and all. I know about birch, MDF and standard plywood. Who don't. But what if I gave you some samples, and see for yourself if you build, and if you don't, then at least let your ears hear a live , real demonstration not altered by phone or PC mics and speakers not allowing for the true quality to be known like you get with a live listening session. I'm not out to sell anything to you, other than sell the possibility that there may actually be someone out here that took the time most don't have to thoroughly test a multitude of samples of the wood in enough ways to definitively say, every reasonable way this wood can be tested to be absolutely sure if it's abilities or restrictions are known for any and all acoustic characteristics it can possess , is done. And I do welcome all builders and members comments, and just an idea, let's be nice, friends are always in short supply who are open and transparent with hard and long toiled hours spent to just give away the results , only to get heckled by "Yondoodle Pigglybuck" from whothcares Idaho when their knowledge of anything cabinet-wise comes from something like :Snoop Dogs book :"Yo Yo Yo You can bild-da-dopest car box! Vershizel!! , (and other projects while you burn a Doobie" )
Lol. But seriously, I've built 6 sets of cabinets, mainly for my customers who have a cabin full of cedar furniture and wanted their stereo cabinets to match. Naturally my very first few were a thin laminate of cedar overlaid on a nice but common cabinet as customer expected. But when I was asked to rebuild an entire acoustic piano, by removing it's wood from harp, and replacing every piece with cedar, so he would have the first ever eastern red cedar piano, at least to date, I've never seen one anywhere till mine. , but possibly could exist I got the notion to do my own cabs in the wood I live, but will only pursue " if" my tests prove it's a viable option if the sound came close or equal to a moderate to upper end (and possibly better) sound quality, even if I try out 1000 experiments and tests, plus, get the opinions of more audio enthusiasts.
This is where any of you come in to play, if interested and not to far away from Mooresburg TN, near Morristown TN, and Knoxville, Sevierville area, ect. My workshop/studio is open to anyone willing to stop by, and if you can't, I certainly would let anyone "borrow" a single small speaker "if" they want it shipped , they pay that cost, but absolutely not a sale, as there is no cost to you trying it out and fill out an opinion and idea letter and just mail the letter with ideas or opinion on it to me. After all, my ears hear one sound and yours may hear it better or not. But it's only YOUR opinions, the audiophiles, that can't best determine this. (My wife humms happily to a mono 4" old crackled speaker that is all the way left and the tone adjustment is her big " fine tuning the sound good like". Lol. So ya, great woman, lousy opinion on audio. She literally learned that speakers have " magnetic properties " when she got with me. So .. ya.. need anyone local and if interested and your not local, I'd love to send ya a free small example, now it's about the cabinets wood, so ill send a small cabinet, and you'd just need to put whatever drivers you have in it, and hopefully use only better drivers than cheap. Yes I do know drivers are matched to the cabinets, and it's a mated pair that's best, but, I can't send free cabinet AND drivers that obviously makes shipping heavier. And I'll provide the optimal range of driver specs to best test it. I AM NOT OUT AFTER Anyone's ADDRESSES ! P. O. Boxes, business address is fine, I am not a shyster, or whatever. Lol. God, after a post like this, if I were, sheesh, a bit overkill for a con man isn't it? I only want honest opinions and options for improvement "if" any. But I have a lot of confidence in its above the norm or expected level of results.
And if none are interested here, no problem, I'll still get my local opinions and let ya know the results. And when I can, I'll post pics of these beauties. Tha ja for your ear, your time, and hopefully, your "nice" responses. But there's always 1, (or5) in every bunch right? Lol
James B.
I believe Cedar is prized for the top, or soundboard of guitars. There, it's excited by the strings and radiates sound off the top surface and of course, into the guitar body.
At least one place in the world has made a speaker cabinet as one would build an acoustic guitar. Not in the guitar shape, but with the bracing and kerfing techniques typically used on the top and back, attaching the top and back to the sides. This allows the box panels to resonate, which is typically frowned upon as a construction technique that makes sense. The question remains, if you did it "right", could that result in a good sounding speaker? I for one have to believe that, done "right", some customers would be delighted with the sound.
There's also the "exciter" driven panel style speaker, where one would think a thin Cedar panel could work and look good. Who knows if bracing like a guitar would make it better over the full audio range.
The above examples I'm trying to use the unique properties of Cedar to some possibly unique acoustic advantage.
As a general material for constructing ordinary rectangular cabinets, I assume the desire is to match the decor of the rest of the room furnishings, made from the same material. I've always heard the multi ply Baltic Birch is good, and I see no reason why the outside layer of such a laminate stack couldnt be Cedar. This would retain the properties of the multi layer laminate stack up of that plywood, but give the desired appearance..
I'm pretty sure none of the above is what you're looking for. You'd like to construct a speaker cabinet in the ordinary way, but use Cedar instead of MDF, 12 ply Birch, etc and have it be good. Unfortunately, I dont have the experience to be able to ratify the idea. I'm pretty sure a safe bet would be to build using the hole'd lattice internal bracing structure, but that makes the cabinets bigger (as you have to allow for the volume all that bracing takes up) and it's significantly more work to assemble.
Hopefully, someone will provide a better answer and maybe even can audition your current product.
At least one place in the world has made a speaker cabinet as one would build an acoustic guitar. Not in the guitar shape, but with the bracing and kerfing techniques typically used on the top and back, attaching the top and back to the sides. This allows the box panels to resonate, which is typically frowned upon as a construction technique that makes sense. The question remains, if you did it "right", could that result in a good sounding speaker? I for one have to believe that, done "right", some customers would be delighted with the sound.
There's also the "exciter" driven panel style speaker, where one would think a thin Cedar panel could work and look good. Who knows if bracing like a guitar would make it better over the full audio range.
The above examples I'm trying to use the unique properties of Cedar to some possibly unique acoustic advantage.
As a general material for constructing ordinary rectangular cabinets, I assume the desire is to match the decor of the rest of the room furnishings, made from the same material. I've always heard the multi ply Baltic Birch is good, and I see no reason why the outside layer of such a laminate stack couldnt be Cedar. This would retain the properties of the multi layer laminate stack up of that plywood, but give the desired appearance..
I'm pretty sure none of the above is what you're looking for. You'd like to construct a speaker cabinet in the ordinary way, but use Cedar instead of MDF, 12 ply Birch, etc and have it be good. Unfortunately, I dont have the experience to be able to ratify the idea. I'm pretty sure a safe bet would be to build using the hole'd lattice internal bracing structure, but that makes the cabinets bigger (as you have to allow for the volume all that bracing takes up) and it's significantly more work to assemble.
Hopefully, someone will provide a better answer and maybe even can audition your current product.
Cedar can be used, either in plank form or as a "face" skin. 18mm is ok as build material, and It's totally fine as skins for a foam composite build or veneer over ply or MDF
It can colour the midrange and uppers a bit depending on your panel sizes and such, and bracing with wood is not a solution either. The only real way that I know to brace cedar for dampening is to use XPS partitions in the cabinet with a large hole cut in it. I wish I had a lot of cedar right now. The snobs at the sail club are racing their Weta tris and just begging to be shown up by a homemade wooden look cold moulded n'drua, the way they drove circles around the blackbirders 😀
It can colour the midrange and uppers a bit depending on your panel sizes and such, and bracing with wood is not a solution either. The only real way that I know to brace cedar for dampening is to use XPS partitions in the cabinet with a large hole cut in it. I wish I had a lot of cedar right now. The snobs at the sail club are racing their Weta tris and just begging to be shown up by a homemade wooden look cold moulded n'drua, the way they drove circles around the blackbirders 😀
@CabinetGOD69 - I read your long post (treatise?), but only once, so I may have missed a few things.
A high performance speaker cabinet should be very stiff and well damped. Wood, in its many forms, is a pretty good material from a performance standpoint, and an excellent material from a practical fabrication standpoint.
In my opinion, the many wood species are more similar than they are different. Although density varies greatly from low density wood like cedar to high density wood like white oak, the stiffness to weight ratio is closer to being constant. Not truly constant, but close enough.
I have used solid cherry as a sheathing over a plywood cabinet. I think cedar would work well for this as well.
Solid wood can be used without a plywood/mdf base if the walls are made up of layers laminated with alternating grain direction. ... Like a cold molded wood boat hull.
A high performance speaker cabinet should be very stiff and well damped. Wood, in its many forms, is a pretty good material from a performance standpoint, and an excellent material from a practical fabrication standpoint.
In my opinion, the many wood species are more similar than they are different. Although density varies greatly from low density wood like cedar to high density wood like white oak, the stiffness to weight ratio is closer to being constant. Not truly constant, but close enough.
I have used solid cherry as a sheathing over a plywood cabinet. I think cedar would work well for this as well.
Solid wood can be used without a plywood/mdf base if the walls are made up of layers laminated with alternating grain direction. ... Like a cold molded wood boat hull.
I realize the importance of a non resonant cabinet but maybe the flexibility of an active system would allow you to tune some of that out ?
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Suppressing a cabinet resonance with EQ is probably better than nothing. If I had an existing cabinet with 328 Hz resonance, I would certainly try to suppress it with a PEQ. But the EQ does nothing to correct the energy storage problem, and the possible time smearing effects. I would try the EQ before tossing the cabinet into the garbage and starting over.
It is best to design and build the cabinet to be as free of audible resonances as possible. I think it would be a mistake to knowingly build a less-than-excellent cabinet with the idea that resonances can be corrected later on with EQ.
It is best to design and build the cabinet to be as free of audible resonances as possible. I think it would be a mistake to knowingly build a less-than-excellent cabinet with the idea that resonances can be corrected later on with EQ.
Eastern red cedar makes for good fenceposts……thats about it.
Soft yet brittle, pita to work with and get a decent finish on.
But if you work with it you already know all this……the only thing I can see it has going for it as far as building speaker boxes would be its dimensional stability.
Also would add if it were me I‘d use just heartwood for its greater density.
Soft yet brittle, pita to work with and get a decent finish on.
But if you work with it you already know all this……the only thing I can see it has going for it as far as building speaker boxes would be its dimensional stability.
Also would add if it were me I‘d use just heartwood for its greater density.
James B,
I'm a Tennessee speaker designer/builder located in Cookeville. If you can snap some photos of your speakers, please show us examples of those projects. We would love to see them.
Several of my projects have been six feet tall line arrays with real wood slab sides (typically 3/4 inch thick material) with walnut, cherry, and other woods. The baffle and other panels on several builds are MDF covered with Wilsonart laminate. The laminate covers recessed magnets for flush mounted (hidden attachment) grills. Photos are linked that show two large line arrays with small woofers and ribbon tweeters. A local woodworker/cabinet builder did the heavy lifting on the cabinet constructions.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/jim-griffins-needles.43430/
https://greatplainsaudiofest.com/Photos/CSSLineArray01.jpg
My last line array project was the Modified CBT24 which uses curved cabinets which are detailed as below:
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/1348662-jim-s-new-cbt-arrays
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/my-new-line-array-its-a-modified-cbt24.313352/
Photos for the Modified CBT24 are linked from message #18 in the last link.
My wife was born and grew up in Morristown and had relatives in the Mooresburg area. You are welcome to visit with me in Cookeville and hear some of my projects. Keep up the good work.
Jim
I'm a Tennessee speaker designer/builder located in Cookeville. If you can snap some photos of your speakers, please show us examples of those projects. We would love to see them.
Several of my projects have been six feet tall line arrays with real wood slab sides (typically 3/4 inch thick material) with walnut, cherry, and other woods. The baffle and other panels on several builds are MDF covered with Wilsonart laminate. The laminate covers recessed magnets for flush mounted (hidden attachment) grills. Photos are linked that show two large line arrays with small woofers and ribbon tweeters. A local woodworker/cabinet builder did the heavy lifting on the cabinet constructions.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/jim-griffins-needles.43430/
https://greatplainsaudiofest.com/Photos/CSSLineArray01.jpg
My last line array project was the Modified CBT24 which uses curved cabinets which are detailed as below:
https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/1348662-jim-s-new-cbt-arrays
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/my-new-line-array-its-a-modified-cbt24.313352/
Photos for the Modified CBT24 are linked from message #18 in the last link.
My wife was born and grew up in Morristown and had relatives in the Mooresburg area. You are welcome to visit with me in Cookeville and hear some of my projects. Keep up the good work.
Jim
Probably a decade ago, I built two enclosures for a couple of vintage (1940s?) Whiteley Stentorian coax drivers out of alternating strips of dark heartwood and lighter sapwood aromatic cedar that I had leftover after remaking a Victorian bay window in my house. On the front of the speaker box was a big ~600Hz tractrix horn. I went so far as to arrange the alternating colours of cedar in parquet for the back panels. After careful jointing, everything glued up fine with no leaks. I listened to them in a living room, at sensible adult levels and doubt cone excursion ever exceeded 1mm. I find cedar an absolute joy to work with, mainly because of the smell. I'm the kind of person that views dents as "historical character" too.
I really don't get the critics of solid wood speaker building. With adequate curing, attention to detail during the prep and assembly, and then good finishing, solid wood left in most of our moisture controlled houses will be stable enough over time. If not, a bit of hidden filler and its sorted.
I really don't get the critics of solid wood speaker building. With adequate curing, attention to detail during the prep and assembly, and then good finishing, solid wood left in most of our moisture controlled houses will be stable enough over time. If not, a bit of hidden filler and its sorted.
Unlike Jim, the density of your post made it difficult to read and i did not get all the way thru…
How close is Eastern compafred to Western Red Cedar.
We (Bernie) did a batch of WRC µFonkens,
No studies, just lots of listening. And the mandatory check for box resonances with the mechaniks stethescope. A small box, well braced so maybe not so applicable if you are building a much bigger box.
It turns out to make really decent enclosures except for the ease with which you can “dent” the wood (perhaps a penetrating epoxy finish?
There is also an Italian tonearm maker where WRC is the choice option for the wand.
dave
planet10 , I don't know much about speakers but I have a lot of Eastern Red cedar. I would not attempt to make speakers from it. It is a very knotty tree and the wood splits easy, It smells good. When it is first cut it has a pretty red color with white sap wood. The red quickly turns brown and a finish will not stop the color change. It is hard for me to get clear boards even from my biggest trees.
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