I have a strange setup I'm looking to update. I do the bulk of my music listening in my kitchen and the only place to put speakers to get decent soundstage around the whole room is on the ceiling. So I stumbled on DML speakers and made some 2x2' panels from styrofoam. With some heavy DSP and a sub they sound great honestly.
However I am just kind of bored and looking for a change so I want to keep the same ceiling hung config but build new speakers that address the shortcomings of the DML panels. The shortcomings are basically general inefficiency, high LF rolloff (about 200-250Hz from what I remember) and the heavy handed DSP to flatten the response. The great thing about them is the imaging- there is basically no beaming, at least to my ears, which is great considering how much I move around the kitchen.
So I am looking to make new 2x2' panel speakers with conventional drivers that have minimal beaming/max dispersion all the way up the frequency range. My gut says to just pair an in ceiling speaker with a high QTS 10-12" driver and call it a day. But I'm also open to running a WMT 3 way setup as well. Imaging doesn't have to be perfect.... I just don't want any high frequency hot spots in the room. What do you recommend?
However I am just kind of bored and looking for a change so I want to keep the same ceiling hung config but build new speakers that address the shortcomings of the DML panels. The shortcomings are basically general inefficiency, high LF rolloff (about 200-250Hz from what I remember) and the heavy handed DSP to flatten the response. The great thing about them is the imaging- there is basically no beaming, at least to my ears, which is great considering how much I move around the kitchen.
So I am looking to make new 2x2' panel speakers with conventional drivers that have minimal beaming/max dispersion all the way up the frequency range. My gut says to just pair an in ceiling speaker with a high QTS 10-12" driver and call it a day. But I'm also open to running a WMT 3 way setup as well. Imaging doesn't have to be perfect.... I just don't want any high frequency hot spots in the room. What do you recommend?
If you want dispersion in all directions, a coaxial is probably a good approach. If you are still going to use a sub, it doesn't need to be that big to get down to 100 Hz or so.
A 10 or 12" is generally going to beam more in its upper range.
Is this a suspended ceiling scenario or do you just have a 2 x 2' hole your speaker is in? Or is your panel just suspended from the ceiling? I can't make out the details of the current setup or your intended new one from your description.
If you have enough room to include an enclosure, something like a used pair of KEF Uni-Q speakers with a new enclosure to fit your geometry might be interesting. They do make in-ceiling speakers as well, but you don't see those as often.
A 10 or 12" is generally going to beam more in its upper range.
Is this a suspended ceiling scenario or do you just have a 2 x 2' hole your speaker is in? Or is your panel just suspended from the ceiling? I can't make out the details of the current setup or your intended new one from your description.
If you have enough room to include an enclosure, something like a used pair of KEF Uni-Q speakers with a new enclosure to fit your geometry might be interesting. They do make in-ceiling speakers as well, but you don't see those as often.
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Here is the setup:
A closer look at one of the drivers. Some exciters bonded to a wood panel bonded to the styrofoam panel:
So I am looking to replace these panels with open baffles and conventional drivers. I know the low end will be a little wonky with the panels so close to the ceiling but it doesn't have to be perfect. I can DSP some of that out.
So yea just some panels hanging from the ceiling. I don't want them to hang too much lower than they are but I know they will have to to clear a typical 10-12" driver.
A closer look at one of the drivers. Some exciters bonded to a wood panel bonded to the styrofoam panel:
So I am looking to replace these panels with open baffles and conventional drivers. I know the low end will be a little wonky with the panels so close to the ceiling but it doesn't have to be perfect. I can DSP some of that out.
So yea just some panels hanging from the ceiling. I don't want them to hang too much lower than they are but I know they will have to to clear a typical 10-12" driver.
That makes things more obvious 
.
With that amount of depth available (or more if you're thinking of using a 12"), I'd be inclined to do a shallow enclosure. It will get you a lot more bass and be less demanding of woofer Xmax.
Of course one thing that's uncertain is how much of your current experience is related to the DML panels' unique phase characteristics. I don't have experience with them, so I can't speculate on that.
.With that amount of depth available (or more if you're thinking of using a 12"), I'd be inclined to do a shallow enclosure. It will get you a lot more bass and be less demanding of woofer Xmax.
Of course one thing that's uncertain is how much of your current experience is related to the DML panels' unique phase characteristics. I don't have experience with them, so I can't speculate on that.
I am increasingly agnostic on all the parameters. Your suggestion on a shallow enclosure is interesting. I could use that to utilize much smaller + shallower drivers and get more than enough low end response and roll off with pretty much no impact on aesthetics/WAF.
So now the question becomes what midrange/tweeter to run. And I feel like it's more about the tweeter as the midrange shouldn't have issues with beaming. Any general recommendations? Seems like I should be good with a run of the mill dome tweeter + 3-4" mid + bass driver of my choosing.
So now the question becomes what midrange/tweeter to run. And I feel like it's more about the tweeter as the midrange shouldn't have issues with beaming. Any general recommendations? Seems like I should be good with a run of the mill dome tweeter + 3-4" mid + bass driver of my choosing.
Are you thinking of making your own co-ax with separate parts or are you talking about a normal baffle configuration with the tweeter next to the midrange? If the latter, off-axis frequency response disturbances may be an issue, since you are more likely to get way off axis with a ceiling speaker. If you go active and use steep crossovers, that should help mitigate the issue for a normal baffle configuration.
I'd lean toward larger on the mid. Many 3 inch drivers have limited Xmax or limited sensitivity. If you pick the right 4-5 inch, I think they'll do OK. Though that also comes down to how loud you are likely to play them, how much power you are going to supply them, etc.
And what kind of budget are you looking at for a mid and a tweeter?
I'd lean toward larger on the mid. Many 3 inch drivers have limited Xmax or limited sensitivity. If you pick the right 4-5 inch, I think they'll do OK. Though that also comes down to how loud you are likely to play them, how much power you are going to supply them, etc.
And what kind of budget are you looking at for a mid and a tweeter?
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What you're looking for is a Bessel array:
https://www.angelfire.com/sd/paulkemble/soundf.html
Here's the one I made:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...waveguide-and-cbt-shading.266417/post-5694631
https://www.angelfire.com/sd/paulkemble/soundf.html
Here's the one I made:
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...waveguide-and-cbt-shading.266417/post-5694631
A hornless 1" (1.75" diaphragm) compression driver will give you 180 degree dispersion over a wide range with good dynamic capabilities. Crossover between 800hz - 1.5khz to a quality 5" or 6".
For example:
https://faitalpro.com/en/products/HF_Drivers/product_details/index.php?id=502010170
https://faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=401010110
For example:
https://faitalpro.com/en/products/HF_Drivers/product_details/index.php?id=502010170
https://faitalpro.com/en/products/LF_Loudspeakers/product_details/index.php?id=401010110
The more I hear, the more agnostic I am on the setup. I am basically looking to cover everything from 100Hz and up in let's say an 18x18x4" internal enclosure with prioritization on dispersion and mostly flat response. I have 4 channels so I wanna keep the driver and crossover budget under $500. I have a DSP for the full signal but I don't think I can bi-amp.
@ErnieM I like the hornless compression driver idea but I imagine I will have to attenuate it a good bit to have it balance with the rest of the system. Do compression drivers have any inherent harshness? The response on the one you linked looks really good.
No. You would be expected to EQ them if they seem that way. A lot like any driver really
On the co-ax approach, this one looks interesting. Would probably be fine in a small sealed box given that you're mounting equivalent to on-wall, so bass will get reinforced by that (compared to a free-standing speaker). In one liter, at Xmax it'll do 95 dB at 1 meter at 100 Hz (Qtc 0.7). 3 liters is 0.5 Qtc.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/sb-acoustics-sb12pacr25-4-coax-4-round/
Basic crossover suggestions here. They are for the paper versions, but given the similarities between them, probably a decent starting point for the aluminum cone as well (eyeballing it, seems likely to push the breakup region down enough for general listening).
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/pdf/SBAcoustic_PFC_Coaxial_Crossover_Designs.pdf
If you're more of a paper cone kind of person in general, here's that version. The tweeter response isn't as flat overall as the one above, but would probably be fine. Co-ax's tend to measure worse than they sound and neither of them are super smooth by audiophile standards on the tweeters, but that's typical of normal co-ax designs. It takes something like the KEF approach to smooth all that out.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/sb-acoustics-sb12pfcr25-4-coax-4-coaxial-4-ohms-round/
There are 5 and 6 inch versions as well, but obviously those are deeper.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/sb-acoustics-sb12pacr25-4-coax-4-round/
Basic crossover suggestions here. They are for the paper versions, but given the similarities between them, probably a decent starting point for the aluminum cone as well (eyeballing it, seems likely to push the breakup region down enough for general listening).
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/pdf/SBAcoustic_PFC_Coaxial_Crossover_Designs.pdf
If you're more of a paper cone kind of person in general, here's that version. The tweeter response isn't as flat overall as the one above, but would probably be fine. Co-ax's tend to measure worse than they sound and neither of them are super smooth by audiophile standards on the tweeters, but that's typical of normal co-ax designs. It takes something like the KEF approach to smooth all that out.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/sb-acoustics-sb12pfcr25-4-coax-4-coaxial-4-ohms-round/
There are 5 and 6 inch versions as well, but obviously those are deeper.
I think I am sold on the compression driver. Efficient, flat, wide response from like 1K up? How did I miss these lol. From what I'm seeing a 2 way set up with one of those compression drivers and a ~5.25" woofer with a sealed F3 in the 70s-80s should work. I would cross things over at about 1.7K. Heck, I could add an 8" PR and get the F3 down to the 40s. Would I need the sub at all? This has become very interesting.
Only hangup is attenuating the compression driver by ~20dB. I would put an L pad in the crossover. Any downsides to that? Seems like common practice but 20dB is extreme. The 5" drivers I'm seeing have sensitivity in the ~85dB range and compression drivers are in the 105-110dB range. I can clean things up a little with DSP but I really want to keep that to a minimum.
Other question I have- seems like bigger compression drivers can go lower (obviously) for some trade off at the tippy top of the frequency range (18K instead of 20K which is OK with me). Any tradeoffs on getting a bigger compression driver? That would enable me to cross lower, which would enable a bigger midbass and just create a kind of virtuous cycle of LF rolloff Man it might be possible to have it all here.
Only hangup is attenuating the compression driver by ~20dB. I would put an L pad in the crossover. Any downsides to that? Seems like common practice but 20dB is extreme. The 5" drivers I'm seeing have sensitivity in the ~85dB range and compression drivers are in the 105-110dB range. I can clean things up a little with DSP but I really want to keep that to a minimum.
Other question I have- seems like bigger compression drivers can go lower (obviously) for some trade off at the tippy top of the frequency range (18K instead of 20K which is OK with me). Any tradeoffs on getting a bigger compression driver? That would enable me to cross lower, which would enable a bigger midbass and just create a kind of virtuous cycle of LF rolloff
Man it might be possible to have it all here.
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No problem with that amount of attenuation. It's done often.
A 1.4"/1.5" exit compression driver will start beaming above 9,500hz. This might be good enough for your needs. A 600hz crossover is possible with the right driver.
Budget is the other concern. I highly recommend bi-amping if going this route.
These are well priced (must create an account) for what you get.
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/br...sion-horn/moteur-1-4.html?dir=asc&order=price
Mattstat's coax recommedations are on point if budget concerns creep up.
A 1.4"/1.5" exit compression driver will start beaming above 9,500hz. This might be good enough for your needs. A 600hz crossover is possible with the right driver.
Budget is the other concern. I highly recommend bi-amping if going this route.
These are well priced (must create an account) for what you get.
https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/br...sion-horn/moteur-1-4.html?dir=asc&order=price
Mattstat's coax recommedations are on point if budget concerns creep up.
Thanks, that is good to know. I will stick with 1". How are some of the cheaper options? I like going with PE. This looks decent:
https://www.parts-express.com/PRV-A...orn-Driver-8-Ohm-2-3-Bolt-294-2828?quantity=1
https://www.parts-express.com/PRV-A...orn-Driver-8-Ohm-2-3-Bolt-294-2828?quantity=1
You've kinda stumbled onto a viable corner of audio.
Every time I've had people over, everyone ends up hanging out in the kitchen and the nearby dining room.
I usually fire up the stereo, but it's way over on the other side of the house.
Plus, I hate having stuff cluttering up my kitchen counters.
It would be interesting to put a speaker/waveguide into a pendant light.
Following the thread with interest...
Every time I've had people over, everyone ends up hanging out in the kitchen and the nearby dining room.
I usually fire up the stereo, but it's way over on the other side of the house.
Plus, I hate having stuff cluttering up my kitchen counters.
It would be interesting to put a speaker/waveguide into a pendant light.
Following the thread with interest...
I probably spend at least 90 minutes a day in our kitchen as it also doubles as our dining room, so it was kind of a no brainer. Initially I had a little 2.1 setup tucked in a corner but I was rarely in just the right spot to enjoy it. When I stumbled on DML speakers it was a cool opportunity to have fun and solve a problem. It still works great honestly but I'm a natural tweaker and engineer at heart- a simpler + more acoustically elegant solution has always been a "phase 2" I wanted to do. Plus any reason to build a new set of speakers is good enough lol.
I actually played with other DML materials, but they all come with tradeoffs. 1/4" acrylic gets down low, but it also needs heavy DSP, is even more inefficient, and has a kind of muffled + distant sound (maybe it's a very damped material). I haven't found any affordable DML products.
One question I have for everyone is around baffle step. Is baffle size even worth considering for a 4" deep speaker flush mounted to a ceiling? If I see it in the response I guess I can just tune it out. Plus I don't want to lose any cabinet volume.
I guess another question I have is around cabinet material. Weight is a safety concern. I don't plan on playing these at very high volumes. What is the lightest Home Depot type material I can use that won't add ringing/resonances? And what strategies can I use to combat them to keep weight even lower (i.e. bracing)?
I actually played with other DML materials, but they all come with tradeoffs. 1/4" acrylic gets down low, but it also needs heavy DSP, is even more inefficient, and has a kind of muffled + distant sound (maybe it's a very damped material). I haven't found any affordable DML products.
One question I have for everyone is around baffle step. Is baffle size even worth considering for a 4" deep speaker flush mounted to a ceiling? If I see it in the response I guess I can just tune it out. Plus I don't want to lose any cabinet volume.
I guess another question I have is around cabinet material. Weight is a safety concern. I don't plan on playing these at very high volumes. What is the lightest Home Depot type material I can use that won't add ringing/resonances? And what strategies can I use to combat them to keep weight even lower (i.e. bracing)?
A pair of the PRV & Faital 5" with this DSP comes out to $345.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...sor-for-Home-and-Car-Audio-230-500?quantity=1
Then you can biamp and optimize far above what you can with only two channels.
I wouldn't worry about baffle step. EQ to your desired response.
Foamcore is popular for quick prototypes. It might work well with bracing. Braced thin plywood would be my choice.
https://www.parts-express.com/Dayto...sor-for-Home-and-Car-Audio-230-500?quantity=1
Then you can biamp and optimize far above what you can with only two channels.
I wouldn't worry about baffle step. EQ to your desired response.
Foamcore is popular for quick prototypes. It might work well with bracing. Braced thin plywood would be my choice.
https://www.visaton.de/en/products/2-way-speakers/fontana
I've made something like this back then + two large subs. 360 degr coverage is fine.
I've made something like this back then + two large subs. 360 degr coverage is fine.