There was one brief mention of this clock here on DIYA, back in 2009.
But, surprisingly, not much chatter in DIY chambers, given some of the "critical" attention PrimaLuna DACs and CDP's have received since roughly early 2008.
Not sure how Dutch company, PrimaLuna, implemented the SuperTubeClock circuit. Tho' JA does go into some detail in Stereophile write-ups:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-prologue-eight-cd-player-upgrades-october-2008
https://www.hifinews.com/content/primaluna-evo-100-tube-dac-usb-tube-dac-tube-clock
According to [1], " SuperTubeClock replaces the solid state oscillator normally found in a DAC with a mini triode vacuum tube. By using a tube, we have significantly lowered the amount of jitter and noise, resulting in superior detail retrieval. .... The tube is a very rugged, long-life Russian military Triode specifically designed for oscillation purposes... "
I looked for Russian osc tubes and found some info [2]. They seem to be quite cheap on eBay, too.
PrimaLuna uses the same design in both their 2008 CD player and 2019 USB DAC products.
Including: SRC4192 asynchronous up-sampler and PCM1792 DAC . And the tube output stage and rectifier. High-slew-rate opamps (100v/us) are used in i/v.
The weirdest anomaly might not be the clock but , as PrimaLuna reports, this ....
============
[1]
https://www.primaluna-usa.com/primaluna-evo-100-tube-dac
[2]
https://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/russian_subminiature_tubes.html
But, surprisingly, not much chatter in DIY chambers, given some of the "critical" attention PrimaLuna DACs and CDP's have received since roughly early 2008.
Not sure how Dutch company, PrimaLuna, implemented the SuperTubeClock circuit. Tho' JA does go into some detail in Stereophile write-ups:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-prologue-eight-cd-player-upgrades-october-2008
A 2020 review from hi-fi news, and more info on the STC:
https://www.hifinews.com/content/primaluna-evo-100-tube-dac-usb-tube-dac-tube-clock
According to [1], " SuperTubeClock replaces the solid state oscillator normally found in a DAC with a mini triode vacuum tube. By using a tube, we have significantly lowered the amount of jitter and noise, resulting in superior detail retrieval. .... The tube is a very rugged, long-life Russian military Triode specifically designed for oscillation purposes... "
I looked for Russian osc tubes and found some info [2]. They seem to be quite cheap on eBay, too.
PrimaLuna uses the same design in both their 2008 CD player and 2019 USB DAC products.
Including: SRC4192 asynchronous up-sampler and PCM1792 DAC . And the tube output stage and rectifier. High-slew-rate opamps (100v/us) are used in i/v.
The weirdest anomaly might not be the clock but , as PrimaLuna reports, this ....
============
[1]
https://www.primaluna-usa.com/primaluna-evo-100-tube-dac
[2]
https://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/russian_subminiature_tubes.html
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Man you are all over the place bringing out meaningless stuffs and idea..... That "super" clock has 20ppm error rate..... when nowadays a 1ppm not called to a super clock. and that is not even the important part for a good sound.......
Why don't you just search around here and discover what you are interested in? I am sure the answer will be here.....
Why don't you just search around here and discover what you are interested in? I am sure the answer will be here.....
About the use of vacuum tubes in modern, critical applications...
The story of the advanced Russian MIGs and radar systems using tubes -- and specifically those mini triodes used in the SuperClock -- are accurate:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Did-MiG-25-s-Really-Use-Vacuum-Tubes-/147-2133638/#i73751688
And the reason is beyond EMP protection. E.g.: The heat from the tubes MIGHT have some kind of oven-control effect on the osc.
About jitter and application to digital audio...
As I've noted in other posts, I only saw data jitter enter into academic discussion at the end of the 1980s, well into the age of good-sounding 3rd and 4th gen CD players. So, no mention of jitter in audio mags or even journal papers (that I could find) or even the Red Book. Maybe Sony and Philips were tracking it in their R&D labs??? Keeping it a secret?? Let me know.
About ppm error rate ...
It's about TIME ... to have an argument about TIME ... and its arrow and "dimensionality". Is time "one dimensional" ? Or like numbers (complex) and space (three), might TIME have more? See this clip (and also note the UFO) ...
The story of the advanced Russian MIGs and radar systems using tubes -- and specifically those mini triodes used in the SuperClock -- are accurate:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Did-MiG-25-s-Really-Use-Vacuum-Tubes-/147-2133638/#i73751688
And the reason is beyond EMP protection. E.g.: The heat from the tubes MIGHT have some kind of oven-control effect on the osc.
About jitter and application to digital audio...
As I've noted in other posts, I only saw data jitter enter into academic discussion at the end of the 1980s, well into the age of good-sounding 3rd and 4th gen CD players. So, no mention of jitter in audio mags or even journal papers (that I could find) or even the Red Book. Maybe Sony and Philips were tracking it in their R&D labs??? Keeping it a secret?? Let me know.
About ppm error rate ...
It's about TIME ... to have an argument about TIME ... and its arrow and "dimensionality". Is time "one dimensional" ? Or like numbers (complex) and space (three), might TIME have more? See this clip (and also note the UFO) ...
I had the feeling something is not right about you....
No mention of jitter in professional academic paper??? Sorry man I have many saved AN note and documents from well known dac chip manufaturers on my pc....just about any kind of jitter and distortions that can occur in digital signal
and many of them disscused right here in the forum.... as I said you should read the forum first... before you coming up with ideas that we used 15 years ago....
No mention of jitter in professional academic paper??? Sorry man I have many saved AN note and documents from well known dac chip manufaturers on my pc....just about any kind of jitter and distortions that can occur in digital signal
and many of them disscused right here in the forum.... as I said you should read the forum first... before you coming up with ideas that we used 15 years ago....
Please pontificate ... and share your notes and documents and forum links -- here in this thread -- about audio DAC chips and jitter from yesteryear. Let's set the TIME MACHINE to, say, 1979 and let it work its dreamy magic until, say,1989 (when Audio and Sterophile began to whisper about the j-word) .
Anyone ... please chime in. We UFOs, even hovering, can always stand corrected 😉
EDIT: Note the paper pub dates in References section of this AP Jitter paper:
http://www.audiophilleo.com/zh_hk/docs/Dunn-AP-tn23.pdf
I did find one loose 1988 ref to it here. But they don't call it jitter:
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/48534487.pdf
"3. P.S. Lidbetter, “ Basic concepts and problems of synchronization of digital audio systems “ preprint 2605 ( G-2 ), Mar. 88. "
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What is useful about revisiting past technologies long superseded? The electronic version of the old mans corner? Jitter was terrible in old CD players sometimes even in nanosecond area. Still some state that they sounded way better. It is a simple test to compare old jittery stuff to modern low jitter sources but apparently that is too time consuming for those that follow that ideas.
Guido Tent was one of the guys that came up with low jitter/low phase noise XOs. I have updated a crazy amount of CD players with Tent modules and/or XO2 or XO3. Never a disappointment but results did vary.
Guido Tent was one of the guys that came up with low jitter/low phase noise XOs. I have updated a crazy amount of CD players with Tent modules and/or XO2 or XO3. Never a disappointment but results did vary.
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Yeah ... thx for reminding me J-P ... I also had it in my notes (and forgot!) to write comments about NOS and super-$ modern D/A's, like Zanden, that have horrible jitter ... but some prefer them, of course. Wheat from chaff ... jitter from marketing!
Just as I thought. I know this from tube guys. Next thing is to state jitter is not important as musical instruments have jitter 🙂
YM3623B and CS8412 normally are their favorites. Only Red Book of course.
YM3623B and CS8412 normally are their favorites. Only Red Book of course.
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About tubes ... old CRT tv's and monitors ... man, those are FAST. And in video games and SIMULATIONS, timing is everything. Gamers scounge for them everywhere now. Hang onto that 19" tube, folks!
Using a valve/'tube' as the essential amplifier in an oscillator , sorry , 'clock' - is an utterly terrible idea - when the goal is low phase noise.
Idiotic, in fact, by 2009.
As was widely commented, at the time.
Idiotic, in fact, by 2009.
As was widely commented, at the time.
What "wide comments" are you referring to?
By "low phase noise", I assume you mean jitter? Yes?
JA tested this CDP back in 2008 and found jitter lab performance to be decent.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/primaluna-prologue-eight-cd-player-measurements
If you should be interested in a DIY valve crystal oscillator, see the oscillator part of
https://linearaudio.net/sites/linearaudio.net/files/03 Didden LA V13 mvdg.pdf
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/valve-dac-from-linear-audio-volume-13.308860/
I used valves just for the hell of it and because I reckoned using old technology made it more likely that my then employer would allow me to write an article about it. It had nothing to do with the performance of the oscillator.
A problem I ran into was that I wanted to use crystals that are manufactured now with valves. Modern crystals have far lower maximum drive levels than those used in the 1950's, so most vintage valve oscillator circuits would simply blow up a 21st century crystal. Not all of them, though.
It's interesting that PrimaLuna ended up using asynchronous sample rate conversion. I did the same because I couldn't get a sufficient tuning range (+/- 50 ppm for high accuracy S/PDIF sources) using reactance-valve tuning.
https://linearaudio.net/sites/linearaudio.net/files/03 Didden LA V13 mvdg.pdf
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/valve-dac-from-linear-audio-volume-13.308860/
I used valves just for the hell of it and because I reckoned using old technology made it more likely that my then employer would allow me to write an article about it. It had nothing to do with the performance of the oscillator.
A problem I ran into was that I wanted to use crystals that are manufactured now with valves. Modern crystals have far lower maximum drive levels than those used in the 1950's, so most vintage valve oscillator circuits would simply blow up a 21st century crystal. Not all of them, though.
It's interesting that PrimaLuna ended up using asynchronous sample rate conversion. I did the same because I couldn't get a sufficient tuning range (+/- 50 ppm for high accuracy S/PDIF sources) using reactance-valve tuning.
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JA, in the 2008 reviews, did mention a "Marcel Crouse" . Not sure that's you 😉
In any case, yes I did note the use of the ASRC in the PrimaLuna products. And that's what prompted some new interest in up-sampling.
About using tubes for oscillator circuits ... if used carefully, yes they can cleanly drive crystals and oscillators ... who knows, may ever superior to solid-state. All that R&D, well into the late 60s! And solid state was not necessarily the winner because of performance or even durability. But because of size, cost and power requirements. You can't realistically use tubes inside iPods. Or maybe you can ...
Marantzphilips, a new interest in upsampling means you will get into … the now… Scary! Before you know it you’ll have a Sanskrit 10th playing.
It is Marcel Croese of Creato Audio so I misspelled.
It is Marcel Croese of Creato Audio so I misspelled.
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About tubes and digital ... I wonder how feasible it would be make the whole CD player "digital" section all tube? For starters, that decoder chip (like a SAA7210). There were computers in vacuum tube age. And they can be made fast. See:
https://retrocomputing.stackexchang...rs-ever-reach-a-physical-limit-to-their-speed
I guess Marcel has already done the homework on the dac.
After a tube decoder can be made to work well for audio, maybe the laser amplifier, and oversampling sections are next.
What about DSD / SACD ? No DAC needed. Supposedly, all one needs to do is LPF dsd once the decoder/receiver grabs it from SACD or usb chip. Correct?
https://retrocomputing.stackexchang...rs-ever-reach-a-physical-limit-to-their-speed
I guess Marcel has already done the homework on the dac.
After a tube decoder can be made to work well for audio, maybe the laser amplifier, and oversampling sections are next.
What about DSD / SACD ? No DAC needed. Supposedly, all one needs to do is LPF dsd once the decoder/receiver grabs it from SACD or usb chip. Correct?
You can check it - take any USB-interface with DSD, and put RC-filter at each DSD-Data line (usually- WCLK and SDATA).
As Andrea (and many others) did: http://www.audiodesignguide.com/PureDSD/