The (vinyl) recording engineers were expected to do this, just like I was expected to clean my room when I was a teenager. Sometimes it did actually happen.
They used to do it on vinyl to limit the LF groove excursion, so they could get more music on one side.
One of the reasons why full range stereo direct discs often had much less music (time wise) on a single side than traditional LP.
Jan
One of the reasons why full range stereo direct discs often had much less music (time wise) on a single side than traditional LP.
Jan
Good point. I only ever tested this with album releases. Might have a look at those cheap compilations where they'd cram ten hit songs on either side. I can't imagine how that would work without tricks like this in the mastering process.
Those 10-hit-per side LPs were often recoded to disc about 10 dB down, not to mention the cheap vinyl it was pressed on. Result: abysmal S/N and it wears out in 20 plays. 10 with a ceramic cartridge.
Yeah, and no bass boost from the loudness control either, since you had to run the volume knob a 2:00 instead of 10:00 for the same output.
Yeah, and no bass boost from the loudness control either, since you had to run the volume knob a 2:00 instead of 10:00 for the same output.
As it's kinda part of the audio source - just talked to a friend yesterday who still does his living in the studio bussines.
Modern LP pressing is not what it was back then. The technology peaked and most of it got forgotten. The vinyl material is not the same quality as it was (he said they are not allowed to use one of the ingrediens any more), the processes are not as good controlled. The pressing plants can't deliver the demand and speed up the process as much as possible. Less cooldown as they should -> stronger warping etc.
But still worse - very often they just print on the LP what they did for digital mastering! That's what the special charme would be from the LP - a little more dynamic, a special treatment to take care of the technical restrictions. When you just use what you master for streaming ... you get the same sound just worse ...
So when you detect a low frequency difference on your left and right channel - that's a clear technical mistake for that medium!
Also on digital you often get technical mistakes - intersample peaks for e.g. when they convert to mp3 for streaming. There is simply not much money in these productions, everything is hurried up and sometimes done on the road with headphones ... mistakes happen.
Modern LP pressing is not what it was back then. The technology peaked and most of it got forgotten. The vinyl material is not the same quality as it was (he said they are not allowed to use one of the ingrediens any more), the processes are not as good controlled. The pressing plants can't deliver the demand and speed up the process as much as possible. Less cooldown as they should -> stronger warping etc.
But still worse - very often they just print on the LP what they did for digital mastering! That's what the special charme would be from the LP - a little more dynamic, a special treatment to take care of the technical restrictions. When you just use what you master for streaming ... you get the same sound just worse ...
So when you detect a low frequency difference on your left and right channel - that's a clear technical mistake for that medium!
Also on digital you often get technical mistakes - intersample peaks for e.g. when they convert to mp3 for streaming. There is simply not much money in these productions, everything is hurried up and sometimes done on the road with headphones ... mistakes happen.
While I enjoy the discussion around vinyl mastering very much, maybe a mod can split this off so that we do not further derail the thread.
Split from this thread as requested:https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...-diyaudio-use-as-music-players.386298/page-12
IamJf,
Sadly i can only agree with what your friend said. It was already the case more than 10 years ago around here: the generation of mastering engineers which grown with vinyl as main media was in age of retirements, new vinyl sales were scarcer ( around 2010 there was a real turn when dance musics producers definitely switched to digital media and decks/players)...
Since then the trend made it 'popular' again and there is not so many 'good' vinyl mastering engineers/studios still running.
And since there is more money to make by reissuing any 70's rock bands's album majors labels overflood them... keeping the dance music/independants genres (which kept the business 'alive' for 20 years) out of way to release on vinyl anymore. It is sad.
Even more if you think some of the original masters of most of these classics albums ( analog) have long been forgotten somewhere when not burried in a landfill... so you end up with (often) first generation digital as the only master availlable...
There is gear issues too: afaik there is now maybe 2 to 3 people on earth able to repair cutting heads of the 'classic' Neumann lathe and those (lathe) are like 50/60 year old industrial gear which seen a lot of use. Even if quality products of their time, nothing is eternal.
That said there is still some very talented engineers and labels seeking for high quality cut for new produced music.
Artofact comes to mind ( the music they promote is not really mainstream... but technical work on it is top notch ), and there is others luckily ( afaik Simon Davey still run The Exchange vinyl in GB).
Sadly i can only agree with what your friend said. It was already the case more than 10 years ago around here: the generation of mastering engineers which grown with vinyl as main media was in age of retirements, new vinyl sales were scarcer ( around 2010 there was a real turn when dance musics producers definitely switched to digital media and decks/players)...
Since then the trend made it 'popular' again and there is not so many 'good' vinyl mastering engineers/studios still running.
And since there is more money to make by reissuing any 70's rock bands's album majors labels overflood them... keeping the dance music/independants genres (which kept the business 'alive' for 20 years) out of way to release on vinyl anymore. It is sad.
Even more if you think some of the original masters of most of these classics albums ( analog) have long been forgotten somewhere when not burried in a landfill... so you end up with (often) first generation digital as the only master availlable...
There is gear issues too: afaik there is now maybe 2 to 3 people on earth able to repair cutting heads of the 'classic' Neumann lathe and those (lathe) are like 50/60 year old industrial gear which seen a lot of use. Even if quality products of their time, nothing is eternal.
That said there is still some very talented engineers and labels seeking for high quality cut for new produced music.
Artofact comes to mind ( the music they promote is not really mainstream... but technical work on it is top notch ), and there is others luckily ( afaik Simon Davey still run The Exchange vinyl in GB).
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Has anyone come across any documentation that mastering engineers would sum the low frequency content to mono for vinyl pressings? All I've ever found is this quote in Small Signal Audio Design by Douglas Self, 3rd edition:
I'm not debating whether it would make sense to reduce to mono below a certain frequency, I think it does. But I also found more records with bass in one channel only than I'd have expected.
I've got a CD-4 disc by JVC that has mains hum on one channel, I'm tempted to say 50Hz but I'll have to check to be sure. Found it quite surprising, considering how good it sounds otherwise.
It's not something mandatory: for some genres it is because of where they are going to be played. For electronic ( dance) music it help to have strong solid low end and monoing low end from circa 150hz help with that. Because you know, sound systems, you never know how they'll be setup...
I've had mix refused because of phase issues in rock and roll music (stereo fx -chorus- used -heavily-on bass). Had to redo my homework...
Some cutters talking about the tool needed to perform this and when/why( it's called an Elliptical Eq ( basically a high pass on the side signal of an m/s encoder/decoder)):
https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=9293
As can be read the tool is not without drawbacks ( in analog at least...). So like everything: it should be fixed ideally at tracking stage, by choice of couples used for micing stereo, adapting location until 'phasing' disapear, limit the number of mics opened,....
Nowadays with some powerful plugins ( fir) and a nice DAW and converters (in front of a cutting lathe) things engineers from then could only dream of, can be achieved...
Ironic, maybe but so powerful and it speed up the whole cutting process ( and productivity goes up too).
I've had mix refused because of phase issues in rock and roll music (stereo fx -chorus- used -heavily-on bass). Had to redo my homework...
Some cutters talking about the tool needed to perform this and when/why( it's called an Elliptical Eq ( basically a high pass on the side signal of an m/s encoder/decoder)):
https://www.lathetrolls.com/viewtopic.php?t=9293
As can be read the tool is not without drawbacks ( in analog at least...). So like everything: it should be fixed ideally at tracking stage, by choice of couples used for micing stereo, adapting location until 'phasing' disapear, limit the number of mics opened,....
Nowadays with some powerful plugins ( fir) and a nice DAW and converters (in front of a cutting lathe) things engineers from then could only dream of, can be achieved...
Ironic, maybe but so powerful and it speed up the whole cutting process ( and productivity goes up too).
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Also in digital domain I normally keep low frequencies mono. It simply doesn't make sense to have the 60Hz Kick drum peak on just one speaker/ear (a lot of headphone listeners these days) and it very likely will sound worse on your music device at home.
You also mostly cut off effects and other phasy stuff from low frequencies cause it muddies the mix. And there are mastering tools out there where you can set the frequency where they sum to mono automatically.
As I always do M/S compressing during mastering that's my stage where I control if there is anything going on in the sides at low frequencies. And mono compatibility is still a big thing in times of mini bluetooth boom boxes.
You also mostly cut off effects and other phasy stuff from low frequencies cause it muddies the mix. And there are mastering tools out there where you can set the frequency where they sum to mono automatically.
As I always do M/S compressing during mastering that's my stage where I control if there is anything going on in the sides at low frequencies. And mono compatibility is still a big thing in times of mini bluetooth boom boxes.
I did ( still do from time to time ) too. But from the start of the track life if possible.
We can always manage treatments afterwards but still i think it have to be taken care right from the start when composers/producers do their job.
Too often i've been with (suposedly creative) people wich had any/no idea about what they were doing... a bit problematic when you are supposed to 'drive' things.
We can always manage treatments afterwards but still i think it have to be taken care right from the start when composers/producers do their job.
Too often i've been with (suposedly creative) people wich had any/no idea about what they were doing... a bit problematic when you are supposed to 'drive' things.
I had a couple of those Ktel records. I was pre-teen, and I could still clearly hear the terrible sound quality on my parent's 50s era hi fi.