Howdy folks. I have a question for you all. I have been looking around at some of the various DIY power amp designs available to us, and I have really been thinking about maybe trying to build one for myself. It is not that I am unhappy with my current amplification, I really just would like some toys to play with, and I welcome any sonic improvements to my system that may come along with my tinkering 🙂
This being said, it has occurred to me that if improved sound is my ultimate goal, I might be better served (and I'm sure I'd have just as much fun) with taking a closer look at my current gear and seeing what I can do to improve it.
What I have right now is a pair of Classe DR-8 monoblocks from the 90's. My experience with modern amplification is pretty sparse, but compared to a lot of the sub $1,000 readymade commercial power amps I've heard, I have far preferred my Classe's. (I have heard some Emotiva power amps and a few other pieces which I have not cared for much at all)
So, my question, and since I don't reckon many of you have heard these amps I'm guessing it will be hard to answer... Should I move forward and start fresh with some well known modern designs? (I have been looking at ZM's Babelfish XA252 and the Alpha Nirvana SE power amp) or should I pull my aging Classe's apart and start tinkering around with replacing some parts with newer and better ones?
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/classe-audio/dr-8.shtml
I am new to diy audio, so whatever I do will be very daunting to me. I am enthusiastic about facing whatever work lies ahead though!
This being said, it has occurred to me that if improved sound is my ultimate goal, I might be better served (and I'm sure I'd have just as much fun) with taking a closer look at my current gear and seeing what I can do to improve it.
What I have right now is a pair of Classe DR-8 monoblocks from the 90's. My experience with modern amplification is pretty sparse, but compared to a lot of the sub $1,000 readymade commercial power amps I've heard, I have far preferred my Classe's. (I have heard some Emotiva power amps and a few other pieces which I have not cared for much at all)
So, my question, and since I don't reckon many of you have heard these amps I'm guessing it will be hard to answer... Should I move forward and start fresh with some well known modern designs? (I have been looking at ZM's Babelfish XA252 and the Alpha Nirvana SE power amp) or should I pull my aging Classe's apart and start tinkering around with replacing some parts with newer and better ones?
https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/classe-audio/dr-8.shtml
I am new to diy audio, so whatever I do will be very daunting to me. I am enthusiastic about facing whatever work lies ahead though!
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Some of my subjective impressions on the classes is that they sound HUGE. I have never detected any strain from them even with very demanding speakers. They are buttery smooth and have an incredibly immersive soundstage. Every note they push out has weight and definition, and they never get confused with complex music or become muddled at high volumes.
I do wish they were a little more detailed though. Next to some class d amps I have heard (Wyred 4 Sound ST 500 MK II, Topping PA-5), the classe can sound a little bit veiled at times. That said, next to the DR-8 the PA-5 especially sounds wimpy and empty sounding (personally, I hate the Topping PA-5. It is one of the worst amplifiers I have ever heard). I do however detect slightly more detail retrieval. The Wyred 4 Sound ST-500 MK II is a little bit better in terms of having a full bodied sound, but I would describe its sound as robbing the music of its "musicality", if you know what I mean. It sounds more like a scientific deconstruction of my music than a faithful reproduction. If it ever got my toe tapping, it would be the tap of a metronome. No swing!
I do wish they were a little more detailed though. Next to some class d amps I have heard (Wyred 4 Sound ST 500 MK II, Topping PA-5), the classe can sound a little bit veiled at times. That said, next to the DR-8 the PA-5 especially sounds wimpy and empty sounding (personally, I hate the Topping PA-5. It is one of the worst amplifiers I have ever heard). I do however detect slightly more detail retrieval. The Wyred 4 Sound ST-500 MK II is a little bit better in terms of having a full bodied sound, but I would describe its sound as robbing the music of its "musicality", if you know what I mean. It sounds more like a scientific deconstruction of my music than a faithful reproduction. If it ever got my toe tapping, it would be the tap of a metronome. No swing!
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my 2c - don't mess with your current amps, they are a reference you know well so you can compare future equipment against them and after you are done messing around they are still intact for you to go back to. If you mess with them you then have no safe ground to return to.
Eventually, you'll find that most of the bullcrap that you thought was important, isn't. And you'll want a reliable good sounding amp that you can count on without fussing around after achieving a 'sound' that's 'palpable' this and that other nonsense. my 2c.
Eventually, you'll find that most of the bullcrap that you thought was important, isn't. And you'll want a reliable good sounding amp that you can count on without fussing around after achieving a 'sound' that's 'palpable' this and that other nonsense. my 2c.
Hmm. That is good advice Bigun. I think at most I can justify owning 2 systems worth of amps at a time, and I have been thinking of making some ACA monoblocks too, which are relatively affordable. (the speakers I am using these days don't need as much power).
If I try a few other options, and decide I still love my Classe's better, but am still yearning for more, would you say that would be a good time to open them up?
I like Bigun’s advice also, plus your Classé’s use TO3 output devices that could very well be obsolete and very difficult to replace if your “tweaking” blows something up. I would leave those amps alone.
There are so many top quality DiY amp projects on this forum your head will spin. I’d say you could pick one that your comfortable your skillset will be able to get the amp project successfully completed.
There are so many top quality DiY amp projects on this forum your head will spin. I’d say you could pick one that your comfortable your skillset will be able to get the amp project successfully completed.
Fair enough. Part accessibility had crossed my mind.
Thank you for your advice. I think I'll take it!
Bryguy:
I owned a Classe Fifteen (paired for a time with Mirage M1s and then with Egglestonworks Andras) for about 8 years and loved it. A friend owned a Ten (paired with Thiel 3.6s) for 15 years. We've both moved on to amps we built, but still have a lot of respect for the early Classe amplifiers. Classe's amps of late (i.e., starting a few years after David Reich left them) are far less compelling. I consequently agree with Bigun and Vunce -- your DR-8s will appeal to someone wanting an excellent-sounding amp that can double as an arc welder. At some point the electrolytic caps will need replacing but if they aren't an issue now I wouldn't mess with them.
As far as diy alternatives are concerned, I agree again with Vunce. This website offers an incredible array of exceptionally good-sounding amplifiers that you can build with a little time and effort. Nelson Pass's First Watt designs are amazing (I've built several F5 Turbos and F6 amps, plus a V-FET) and available at the diyAudio store. But other terrific designs are also available. Many of the amplifier options are supported by build guides that walk you through the entire process (invaluable for the beginner).
Bottom line: don't mess with the DR-8s unless you absolutely have to. Build something and compare it to what you've got. Sell whatever you like less.
Regards,
Scott
I owned a Classe Fifteen (paired for a time with Mirage M1s and then with Egglestonworks Andras) for about 8 years and loved it. A friend owned a Ten (paired with Thiel 3.6s) for 15 years. We've both moved on to amps we built, but still have a lot of respect for the early Classe amplifiers. Classe's amps of late (i.e., starting a few years after David Reich left them) are far less compelling. I consequently agree with Bigun and Vunce -- your DR-8s will appeal to someone wanting an excellent-sounding amp that can double as an arc welder. At some point the electrolytic caps will need replacing but if they aren't an issue now I wouldn't mess with them.
As far as diy alternatives are concerned, I agree again with Vunce. This website offers an incredible array of exceptionally good-sounding amplifiers that you can build with a little time and effort. Nelson Pass's First Watt designs are amazing (I've built several F5 Turbos and F6 amps, plus a V-FET) and available at the diyAudio store. But other terrific designs are also available. Many of the amplifier options are supported by build guides that walk you through the entire process (invaluable for the beginner).
Bottom line: don't mess with the DR-8s unless you absolutely have to. Build something and compare it to what you've got. Sell whatever you like less.
Regards,
Scott
Hey thanks Scott! This is exactly the sort of answer I was hoping for. I'm glad to hear that the DR amps are respected around here. I love your arc welder comment 😂 I brought mine to a repair tech a couple years ago and he couldn't believe his eyes. Called it the most powerful amplifiers he'd ever seen, despite their meager 70WPC rating.
Anywho, I don't want to waste the opportunity of having an experienced diy enthusiast who also has experience with Classe DR gear to talk to, so humor me please..
Knowing basically the kind of sound I like, do you have any recommendations for stuff I could build? There are so many options it's hard to choose for a noob like me!
Typical data collection is warranted in this case so the more wise of the forum (not me! 🙂) can give you sage advice—to supplement what you’ve already received. What speakers do you use/have? What is your typical listening environment? Room size(s)? Volume preference? Are you concerned with energy usage/heat?
From my limited experience in the FAB club, I would say build an F5/F6/M2X/AlphaNirvana to get your feet wet with DIY class A, or build a HoneyBadger, AB100, or FH9HVX if you need class AB power.
From my limited experience in the FAB club, I would say build an F5/F6/M2X/AlphaNirvana to get your feet wet with DIY class A, or build a HoneyBadger, AB100, or FH9HVX if you need class AB power.
My current system will not be so for long if I am lucky. Trying to start fresh, basically, but as you've seen I've been having second thoughts on selling the Classe's too. (I probably won't)
I will be in a medium to large room, which I am working on acoustically treating now. Rockwool absorption, rudimentary furniture based diffraction, probably some ceiling treatment because there is AWFUL flutter echo in the room. My speakers will be xrk971's XSD, and my preamplifier is yet undecided, although I have been looking into the Aikido offerings. Have you heard the Alpha Nirvana? It was at the top of my list for awhile, but I've never heard anything from Mr. Pass before so I have been looking at those a lot recently. The XSD is 91db, but X says they don't mind headroom!
Unless you will use a turntable, it's a good idea to wait on any decision about a preamp until last.
You may not need any line stage gain.
xrk971 says that you need a good 4 ohm amp for the woofers.
Is there a carpet on the floor? Shades or curtains on the windows?
You may not need any line stage gain.
xrk971 says that you need a good 4 ohm amp for the woofers.
Is there a carpet on the floor? Shades or curtains on the windows?
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I will be using a turntable, but it will not comprise the majority of my listening. Also, I will probably use a separate phono pre. There will be a big wool rug. Ugly thing, but good at sound absorption. it's about 7 x 12, the rest of the floor will be exposed (hardwood). Yes, heavy curtains on windows
Suggest waiting until the rug and curtains are installed, before any further action on the acoustics.
Both already installed. Still awful flutter echo, and even my Selah Tanzanites in that room sound worse than my Bluetooth speaker outside
Post whatever floor plans etc. that are available for the room. Could be a tough one.
Is near field an option?
Is near field an option?
Bryguy:
In addition to the questions posed by von Ah and rayma, I would ask (a) what sorts of music do you prefer; (b) where in a concert hall do you like to sit; and, (c) where on the spectrum from clinical (and cold) to neutral to warm (and euphonic) are you most partial to?
A pair of Classe DR-8s provide a boatload of power and it's easy to think you need that much or more. After I owned my Fifteen (175 watts/ch) I owned Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 monoblocks (200 watts/ch), which were slightly more powerful and far more authoritative than the Classe. I then built a pair of F5 Turbo V3 monoblocks which, over the years, I've dialed down quite a bit. It's taken me a long time to appreciate how little power you really need to get a deafening sound level with even moderately efficient speakers. With my Elsinore speakers (probably in the 91 dB range), I can't get anywhere close to full volume using a 10 watt V-FET stereo amp. My point? First, most of the First Watt amps are in the 25 watt / channel @ 8 ohms range, and they might well be more than powerful enough in your environment. Other amps available here at diyAudio can be similarly scaled. And second, if that is true in your case you have a lot of options as to the sound of your first diy amplifier. I'm mostly accustomed to Nelson Pass-designed amps, so please understand my perspective is probably a little narrow, but a First Watt F5 sounds different than an F5 Turbo which sounds different from an F6, Aleph J, J2 and M2. They all sound fantastic, and all sound a little different from each other.
You have a lot of choices, and I'd guess that many of these designs would be more than satisfactory for you. Figuring out your preferences, though, can help others to point you in a productive direction.
Regards,
Scott
In addition to the questions posed by von Ah and rayma, I would ask (a) what sorts of music do you prefer; (b) where in a concert hall do you like to sit; and, (c) where on the spectrum from clinical (and cold) to neutral to warm (and euphonic) are you most partial to?
A pair of Classe DR-8s provide a boatload of power and it's easy to think you need that much or more. After I owned my Fifteen (175 watts/ch) I owned Pass Labs Aleph 1.2 monoblocks (200 watts/ch), which were slightly more powerful and far more authoritative than the Classe. I then built a pair of F5 Turbo V3 monoblocks which, over the years, I've dialed down quite a bit. It's taken me a long time to appreciate how little power you really need to get a deafening sound level with even moderately efficient speakers. With my Elsinore speakers (probably in the 91 dB range), I can't get anywhere close to full volume using a 10 watt V-FET stereo amp. My point? First, most of the First Watt amps are in the 25 watt / channel @ 8 ohms range, and they might well be more than powerful enough in your environment. Other amps available here at diyAudio can be similarly scaled. And second, if that is true in your case you have a lot of options as to the sound of your first diy amplifier. I'm mostly accustomed to Nelson Pass-designed amps, so please understand my perspective is probably a little narrow, but a First Watt F5 sounds different than an F5 Turbo which sounds different from an F6, Aleph J, J2 and M2. They all sound fantastic, and all sound a little different from each other.
You have a lot of choices, and I'd guess that many of these designs would be more than satisfactory for you. Figuring out your preferences, though, can help others to point you in a productive direction.
Regards,
Scott
Thank for your response Scott! To answer your questions:
A: I guess "everything" is sort of a copout answer, so some of my favorites are rock, vocals music (Neil Young etc.), bluegrass, string chamber music and jazz. I listen to a lot of older recordings, but 50%+ of the time I listen to post 2000 recordings. 15% of the time maybe I listen to hip hop and metal and stuff like that, so while I do listen to that stuff it takes a backseat. Last month my most listened to artist on Tidal was Philip Glass. Here is a track that covers most of my bases!
C: I think a slight leaning towards warm, but I still like some bite when the material calls for it. I like for my music to sound smooth, thick and lush, but for it not to sound veiled or muddy when Mark Feldman starts screeching with his violin or when Ornette Coleman starts doing God knows what on his sax. I hate hate hate thin sounding systems. I like a double bass to sound like a double bass, not a down pitched violin.. so the systems I have liked most have a warm full body, but are not so mellow as to compromise the bite of the snappiness of a tightly tuned drumkit
I am certainly amenable to trying a lower power amplifier. In my experience wattage and other power specifications have correlated very loosely with what I enjoy. Even worse than the Topping PA-5 to my ears was the Crown XLS 2502, and that amp is a beast!
Thanks again for your help! I would like to hear all of the popular designs, but I definitely could use some advice on what to build for myself..
Bryguy:
Take this suggestion with an enormous grain of salt: you might do well to take a close look at the Aleph J (currently out of stock but supplies will undoubtedly be replenished sometime soon). I haven't built it myself but have listened, at length, to one built by a friend. It's an excellent option that seems, to me, to check most if not all of your boxes. I'm listening to my F5Ts at the moment and love their sound, but they may be more neutral than you'd like in the long run. My F6 is a dual mono configuration that sounds (to my prejudiced ears) a little cleaner than other F6 implementations I've heard, but its soundstage is slightly narrower than the F5Ts and it may be a bit warmer than you'd like. My F6 sounds great and has a more intimate presentation than the F5Ts, but I suspect you might prefer the Aleph J.
As a former owner of Aleph 1.2 monoblocks, a predecessor to the Aleph J, I can attest to the quality and appeal of the Aleph series sound. You could do a lot worse.
That said, there are plenty of other options available on this website you might consider as well. In addition to the diyAudio store, there are plenty of amplifier pcbs currently available in the Group Buys and Swap Meet threads. Oh, and one more thought: if you can manage it, consider attending Burning Amp this year. Online might be fun but being there in person can be a revelatory experience, especially for someone who wants to listen to and learn from a broad range of diy audio projects. You could even say hello to the esteemed Nelson Pass. Burning Amp is 5 weeks away and I'm excited to be going again.
Good luck in your quest!
Regards,
Scott
Take this suggestion with an enormous grain of salt: you might do well to take a close look at the Aleph J (currently out of stock but supplies will undoubtedly be replenished sometime soon). I haven't built it myself but have listened, at length, to one built by a friend. It's an excellent option that seems, to me, to check most if not all of your boxes. I'm listening to my F5Ts at the moment and love their sound, but they may be more neutral than you'd like in the long run. My F6 is a dual mono configuration that sounds (to my prejudiced ears) a little cleaner than other F6 implementations I've heard, but its soundstage is slightly narrower than the F5Ts and it may be a bit warmer than you'd like. My F6 sounds great and has a more intimate presentation than the F5Ts, but I suspect you might prefer the Aleph J.
As a former owner of Aleph 1.2 monoblocks, a predecessor to the Aleph J, I can attest to the quality and appeal of the Aleph series sound. You could do a lot worse.
That said, there are plenty of other options available on this website you might consider as well. In addition to the diyAudio store, there are plenty of amplifier pcbs currently available in the Group Buys and Swap Meet threads. Oh, and one more thought: if you can manage it, consider attending Burning Amp this year. Online might be fun but being there in person can be a revelatory experience, especially for someone who wants to listen to and learn from a broad range of diy audio projects. You could even say hello to the esteemed Nelson Pass. Burning Amp is 5 weeks away and I'm excited to be going again.
Good luck in your quest!
Regards,
Scott
I might be moving to Colorado in the next few years, which would put me a lot closer. In Ohio right now, so a bit too far for the moment. I would really love to attend someday though. It seems like a wonderful time
Thank you for the recommendation! I haven't looked very closely at the Aleph J, so I will do that!