Hi folks, I've been a long time visitor and lurker to the forum, I might have already posted something in the past (I can't remember; actually, I did). Anyway, I'm considering the idea of building a sealed bass guitar cabinet based around this speaker:
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/LaVoce/FBASS15-20
which looks almost perfect for what I want to achieve. It has relatively high Qts and Qes, very good sensibility and a relatively flat, shelf-like midrange rise over 1kHz, up to around 4kHz, which means that it will be bright enough to be used standalone and then some (narrow polar dispersion notwithstanding), without being overly characterised like many woofers with a midrange rise (which show some wild resonance, sometimes 6-8dB in a 1/2oct range or less). It likes large sealed cabinets but it should still work fine at around 70l and some heavy internal padding for bass guitar, since it would have a bit of a midbass hump, less speaker excursion and less low-end extension which is really fine for bass guitar, since I don't really use 5-string basses and most energy is at the 2nd harmonic anyway.
I need 200W RMS max (my amp should be rated at about 180W RMS @ 8 ohm, with some saturation it can get higher but I don't plan to use my amp at full on distortion anyway, you almost never do with bass), a sealed cab because the idea is to use it for studio and small club purposes, and a sealed cab tends to have better transients (which may be irrelevant on bass guitar) and a bit easier to deal with in bad rooms acoustically (which may be much more relevant), and also high output impedance amps are better matched with sealed cabinets, and I might be getting one in the near future. Also, a sealed cab is relatively easier to build.
Questions:
- apparently speakers should never be placed smack centre on the baffle, but they should ideally be placed off-centre. Is this true? Some speaker simulators (for example, the one on Loudspeaker Database) actually show some weird notches when you place speakers off-centre rather than right smack in the middle, which looks weird to me.
- I was thinking of using screws to glue the panels together (which glue?), since I won't be using many wood clamps. Apparently using screws is a bit frowned upon, why?
- also, I was thinking of glueing some wooden rods along the internal edges, where the panels meet, to reinforce the junction (I've seen pictures of this done), and probably a single brace, a "stick" going front to back, assuming that I actually manage to cut the brace well enough so that it makes a bit of a front-to-back pressure. Apparently, bracing full-range cabinets too much makes resonances worse, since you are increasing the resonant frequency into a frequency range where the speaker still emits a lot of energy, while our ears are also more sensitive. What would you suggest?
- what kind of acoustic absorption should I use? I want to avoid using mineral wool since it's an irritant and if there are safer alternatives that don't cost an arm and a leg I'd be happy to explore them.
- finally, sealed cabinets should be well sealed to function well. I was thinking of using caulk along all the edges, while the speaker jack will be put into one of those plastic boxes electricians use for wiring, which would be then insulated against the back panel. That still leaves the speaker: should I use a gasket? There are some bitumen products that apparently are applied along the baffle where the speaker will be mounted. Is it worth the trouble?
Thanks for you advice, and sorry if my questions seem naive, but I'm really a beginner at cabinet making. Many of my concerns might seem overkill but since I would like to make a studio-worthy cabinet as well as a relatively small (smaller than my 2x12" cabinet for sure) cabinet for small gigs, I'd like it not to have issues that would prevent it from being useful in such a situation.
http://www.loudspeakerdatabase.com/LaVoce/FBASS15-20
which looks almost perfect for what I want to achieve. It has relatively high Qts and Qes, very good sensibility and a relatively flat, shelf-like midrange rise over 1kHz, up to around 4kHz, which means that it will be bright enough to be used standalone and then some (narrow polar dispersion notwithstanding), without being overly characterised like many woofers with a midrange rise (which show some wild resonance, sometimes 6-8dB in a 1/2oct range or less). It likes large sealed cabinets but it should still work fine at around 70l and some heavy internal padding for bass guitar, since it would have a bit of a midbass hump, less speaker excursion and less low-end extension which is really fine for bass guitar, since I don't really use 5-string basses and most energy is at the 2nd harmonic anyway.
I need 200W RMS max (my amp should be rated at about 180W RMS @ 8 ohm, with some saturation it can get higher but I don't plan to use my amp at full on distortion anyway, you almost never do with bass), a sealed cab because the idea is to use it for studio and small club purposes, and a sealed cab tends to have better transients (which may be irrelevant on bass guitar) and a bit easier to deal with in bad rooms acoustically (which may be much more relevant), and also high output impedance amps are better matched with sealed cabinets, and I might be getting one in the near future. Also, a sealed cab is relatively easier to build.
Questions:
- apparently speakers should never be placed smack centre on the baffle, but they should ideally be placed off-centre. Is this true? Some speaker simulators (for example, the one on Loudspeaker Database) actually show some weird notches when you place speakers off-centre rather than right smack in the middle, which looks weird to me.
- I was thinking of using screws to glue the panels together (which glue?), since I won't be using many wood clamps. Apparently using screws is a bit frowned upon, why?
- also, I was thinking of glueing some wooden rods along the internal edges, where the panels meet, to reinforce the junction (I've seen pictures of this done), and probably a single brace, a "stick" going front to back, assuming that I actually manage to cut the brace well enough so that it makes a bit of a front-to-back pressure. Apparently, bracing full-range cabinets too much makes resonances worse, since you are increasing the resonant frequency into a frequency range where the speaker still emits a lot of energy, while our ears are also more sensitive. What would you suggest?
- what kind of acoustic absorption should I use? I want to avoid using mineral wool since it's an irritant and if there are safer alternatives that don't cost an arm and a leg I'd be happy to explore them.
- finally, sealed cabinets should be well sealed to function well. I was thinking of using caulk along all the edges, while the speaker jack will be put into one of those plastic boxes electricians use for wiring, which would be then insulated against the back panel. That still leaves the speaker: should I use a gasket? There are some bitumen products that apparently are applied along the baffle where the speaker will be mounted. Is it worth the trouble?
Thanks for you advice, and sorry if my questions seem naive, but I'm really a beginner at cabinet making. Many of my concerns might seem overkill but since I would like to make a studio-worthy cabinet as well as a relatively small (smaller than my 2x12" cabinet for sure) cabinet for small gigs, I'd like it not to have issues that would prevent it from being useful in such a situation.
That driver in a small sealed box looks like it's output is dropping like a stone in the lower registers, with the knee right around 100 Hz. For sealing things that have to come apart, stripable caulk is pretty spiffy. It's used to seal storm windows. The brand I am familiar with is acrylic., it comes out of the tube white and goes clear as it cures.
I wouldn't say that it is dropping much.
This is in a 70l box, modelled as having moderate absorption (Qa = 25) and with a Qtc of 1,017. F3 at 67Hz, which is more than adequate for bass guitar, and a gentle highpass below, being a sealed cabinet. This kind of response is in line with many vintage and not so vintage cabinets.
This is in a 70l box, modelled as having moderate absorption (Qa = 25) and with a Qtc of 1,017. F3 at 67Hz, which is more than adequate for bass guitar, and a gentle highpass below, being a sealed cabinet. This kind of response is in line with many vintage and not so vintage cabinets.
Don´t worry too much about that, this is not Hi Fi, some resonances, peaks, dips here and there add "voice" to a MI cabinet. For better or for worse 😉
Always look at what established makers (Ampeg - Peavey - Laney - Fender - etc.) do.
From day 1 the curse of MI amplifiers and cabinets was portability, hence Tolexing, corner protectors, handles, rubber feet, even wheels, closer to "luggage" than anything else, that strongly conditions what size and weight you can have, which strongly conditions what you can build.
Because it´s not a sign of high level carpentry.
Not too applicable here, you need strength.
No furniture is designed routinely to roll downstairs, bump for hours in the back of a pickup truck, be loaded on a plane or truck, etc.
Both good ideas, besides Acoustic results, plain strength is always welcome.
The front-back brace is cut "just to fit" or a couple mm shorter and you add foam- EVA rubber - felt between surfaces which gets compressed and absorbs vibration.
More anxiety/overthinking than a real problem 🙂
Bracing/strength is always good.
Look at those incredibly braced Plant 10 cabinets , now THAT is bracing 🙂
Avoid mineral wool liken the pest it is, it makes me shudder,
My Father was a Doctor and he showed me pictures and movies of miners, public works and even house workers lungs with silicosis: the embedding in lung tissue of mineral particles, including asbestos and fiberglass .... ugh! .... something hard to unsee.
Sealing never hurts, but don´t overthink it, no big deal.
I get what you mean, in fact many of the classic amps have their woofers placed in the centre or neatly laid out symmetrically, but I'd like to understand how placing woofers on a baffle works. Since I'm going to brace the cabinet, I might as well place the woofer off-centre.
Of course I'm going to try to make it as sturdy as possible, although I'm not going to use tolex (probably a rugged finish, such as those you use on PA cabinets, also because you can choose more colours).
I see. I have no problem appearing shoddy to the eyes of the fancy carpenters. 😀
Good idea. Thanks.
What should I use then?
I can imagine, still, since once you make a cabinet you don't really tinker with it that much, too big of a hassle, I'd like to get things right the first time (of course I'm still gonna make lots of mistakes anyway).
Agree. To get more below 55Hz you'd have to take less above 55Hz, which is most of the music. And if you had to, you can do that by adding a couple ounces to the cone (modeling clay for bench-test, solder-wire and shoe-goo for performance), although added mass could be put to better use (longer coil).
It is just about what a hundred-buck driver in a 2-1/2cf box is expected to do. Which is why the vintage boxes were like this too.
Virgin long-strand wool is excellent stuffing, but not cheap. Used wool blankets are good but plastics (Dacron etc) are far more common now, and often harder, acoustically, than you might think. My practical standby is pink (yellow) fiberglas house insulation-- a little noxious and not the best sound-sucker, but so cheap you can throw a whole bunch in for small money.
Not centered... bah!! If you want RE-production and sit smack on-axis, maybe it matters. Here the artist reacts to the sound creatively, AND the audience is all spread around, 80% being in the reverberant field where all directionality is mixed. This also suggests that stuffing is not vital. A bit to take the wildness off, but no need to damp it to death.
I meant, what kind of absorption should I use? Also, what kind of glue? Vinyl glue should be good for wood, but I assume there are better glues that fill in the gaps and make a good seal.
In MI cabinets acoustic absorption is not that important,some use it , some don´t.
As suggested above, fiberglass is good (and the classic material), I fear it. Specially in my lungs but even on skin, "itching" is actually glass fibers sticking into it and it stops not because it goes away but because you got used to or encapsulated it ... ugh!!!!
I also avoid organic material (specially wool), excellent food and breeding place for moths and similar.
As you see, I am quite fussy for a non-user, but that´s me, you may have other preferences.
Only cabinets I dampen acoustically are Voice ones, there resonances are very notable and ugly; I use nylon batting, whatever´s used to fill parkas and thermal cloting in general.
Not the best, but quite acceptable, does not stab you nor get eten by moth larvae or pick dampness ... your choice.
Any professional Carpenter´s glue is fine, NOT Hobby type.
In US there is "Gorilla Glue" which sort of foams up and fills every cranny, also very strong ... if available to you try it.
As suggested above, fiberglass is good (and the classic material), I fear it. Specially in my lungs but even on skin, "itching" is actually glass fibers sticking into it and it stops not because it goes away but because you got used to or encapsulated it ... ugh!!!!
I also avoid organic material (specially wool), excellent food and breeding place for moths and similar.
As you see, I am quite fussy for a non-user, but that´s me, you may have other preferences.
Only cabinets I dampen acoustically are Voice ones, there resonances are very notable and ugly; I use nylon batting, whatever´s used to fill parkas and thermal cloting in general.
Not the best, but quite acceptable, does not stab you nor get eten by moth larvae or pick dampness ... your choice.
Any professional Carpenter´s glue is fine, NOT Hobby type.
In US there is "Gorilla Glue" which sort of foams up and fills every cranny, also very strong ... if available to you try it.
Plywood at least 3/4", very light bracing if none (if you use 4/5" thick plywood you may skip these) and make the back openable, sometimes you may like it better this way 🙂 Screws don`t add strength - it al comes from the glue and how hard you pressed with clamps. Any PVA will get you there. Absorption - I tried with and without and several different materials and best liked pyramide shaped foam - it absorbs but not that much and retains the more lively sound. Indeed, it would be you that would make sound so anything is ok if it gives you the sound you want.
On the LaVoce driver - massive Vas and higher Qts, sure you want it? They`re made by a joint venture of Elletromedia (Hertz, Audison and etc.) and a Chinese company, my experience with Hertz and Audison is very poor performance per buck. They spent money in sales things - i.e. putting colourful magnet covers and fancy looking plastic basket covers to mask mediocre drivers. Even their high-end stuff is outperformed by very modest drivers (Goldwood, Silver Flute, Omnes Audio and etc.) so I would think twice before ordering this unit.
On the LaVoce driver - massive Vas and higher Qts, sure you want it? They`re made by a joint venture of Elletromedia (Hertz, Audison and etc.) and a Chinese company, my experience with Hertz and Audison is very poor performance per buck. They spent money in sales things - i.e. putting colourful magnet covers and fancy looking plastic basket covers to mask mediocre drivers. Even their high-end stuff is outperformed by very modest drivers (Goldwood, Silver Flute, Omnes Audio and etc.) so I would think twice before ordering this unit.
I see, I've always read that with sealed cabinets you are supposed to use heavy padding, but of course, this is not hi-fi.
I can't find any similar drivers that have a lowish EBP, a midrange rise without any resonant behaviour (eg. Eminence Beta 15) and good extension up to the lower treble.
For comparison, this is the Eminence Beta 15:
It is similar, but the first driver has a tiny bit more extension and less of a peak, and also less of an impedance peak. Also, the Beta 15 has an even higher Vas and Qts. And costs the same or more.
Yes, I'm aware (as you can see from the chart) that the response off-axis is basically bereft of anything over 1kHz but that's par for the course with 15" drivers and it may even be sort of beneficial with bass on stage (it allows the musician to hear more of the articulation that will be masked for the other band members). Also, keep in mind that bass guitar woofers are in a weird place, in between the usual woofer and subwoofers. If you use proper subwoofers you won't have any mids, if you use regular woofers they might show the sort of frequency response I showed above only in a ported cabinet, never in a sealed one. It so happens that good bass guitar woofers are outdated designs that would make no sense for anything else.
Lastly, keep in mind I'm not planning to pair the cabinet with a tweeter and I quite like the "sound" of treble coming from a paper cone, it works well on MI.
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The fundamental of the low B (34hz) will be inaudable and the low E wont be much better (12db lower than the first harmonic).
From a pro: "My target for my commercial cabs is usually the first overtone of low-B. "Flat" to 62 Hz gives a big low end, -3 dB at 62 Hz gives an acceptable low end, less than that and a bit of EQ may be needed.
If your lowest open string is low-E, you might go for flat to 82 Hz, while keeping an eye on excursion so that you don't get early-onset fartout. But the goal posts for low-E are easier to get to than the goal posts for low-B. As you have discovered, still strong at the fundamental is very expensive in terms of box size, and imo arguably not really needed."
This is a very interesting subject. I am still building and testing different builds to my bass guitar 🙂
My take is this: The bass speaker with its amplifier is as much of a musical instrument as the bass guitar on its own. P bass, J bass. And all that funk and jazz. Yea. Well. You know! 😎
It is simply a true art to create the ultimate funky, coolest cat, globally musicaly total soul spanking ”bass amp”.
🤗
The most musically sounding enclosure is not necesserily a stone dead closed lead box, braced to rigor mortis!
The perfect amp is not not necesserily a welding class 5000W class D monstrosity.
The most musicaly sounding bass guitar woofer is not necesserily a newest gen titanium, carbon fiber, aluminium enhanced
next generation ”quantum glued” computer generated perfectness.
So. Good luck! 😎
My take is this: The bass speaker with its amplifier is as much of a musical instrument as the bass guitar on its own. P bass, J bass. And all that funk and jazz. Yea. Well. You know! 😎
It is simply a true art to create the ultimate funky, coolest cat, globally musicaly total soul spanking ”bass amp”.
🤗
The most musically sounding enclosure is not necesserily a stone dead closed lead box, braced to rigor mortis!
The perfect amp is not not necesserily a welding class 5000W class D monstrosity.
The most musicaly sounding bass guitar woofer is not necesserily a newest gen titanium, carbon fiber, aluminium enhanced
next generation ”quantum glued” computer generated perfectness.
So. Good luck! 😎
To quote your pro, still strong at the fundamental is very expensive in terms of box size and not really needed. F3 at 67 Hz translates to -0.5dB at 82Hz, quite close to flat (and when connected to a high output impedance amp, the response peak ends up being about here). I could basically copy Ampeg's SVT15-E (but make it sealed), a 100l box (internal volume), and I'd have a Qtc around 0.8 IIRC, and I'd have a smoother roll-off, but it's 30l bigger for very little gain, an "acceptable low end for a low B" since F3 goes down about 8Hz... but I don't use 5-string basses and I'm specifically after a vintage tone with this cabinet.
Recording, rehearsals possibly, small gigs. For comparison, I'm currently using a 2x12" bass can at 8 ohms, with my 300W @ 4 ohms bass amp (a GK 800RB). For most gigs it's actually too loud, and it amounts at something like 180W.
Without factoring the music type and playing style, most bass amps out there are based on brands wanting to have product offerings at most price points and only able to work with a small part of what a bass guitar can do and fail at the interesting frequencies need for the emotional impact. These don't only happen on the lower strings
Since you are going to the effort of DIY, factor this in.... unless, following popular mindset, you also prefer leaving out the spectrum that evokes more than the ear
Four years ago, I made the mistake of plugging a bass guitar into a class d subwoofer that had great composure while generating tremendous output levels. The crossover point on this was too high compared to again popular opinion on subs. This let it produce every fret with authority. As bass reflex design with a port taking a massive percentage of the total box volume. I did B and C and D testing with ported and sealed subs types more respected on this site as well as the bass amp lineup at the music shop
Man, I am spoilt now. I won’t settle for the current approach to bass amps. Sealed designs are gorgeous for reproducing prerecorded music too, but what's needed is a musical instrument and a port that creates shaping layers. I am not educated in this, so won’t use terms like harmonics or go into the science of it
Waiting for Gnobuddy to return from his sabbatical, so I can request him to find some maths on creating a mega bass bansuri
Since you are going to the effort of DIY, factor this in.... unless, following popular mindset, you also prefer leaving out the spectrum that evokes more than the ear
Four years ago, I made the mistake of plugging a bass guitar into a class d subwoofer that had great composure while generating tremendous output levels. The crossover point on this was too high compared to again popular opinion on subs. This let it produce every fret with authority. As bass reflex design with a port taking a massive percentage of the total box volume. I did B and C and D testing with ported and sealed subs types more respected on this site as well as the bass amp lineup at the music shop
Man, I am spoilt now. I won’t settle for the current approach to bass amps. Sealed designs are gorgeous for reproducing prerecorded music too, but what's needed is a musical instrument and a port that creates shaping layers. I am not educated in this, so won’t use terms like harmonics or go into the science of it
Waiting for Gnobuddy to return from his sabbatical, so I can request him to find some maths on creating a mega bass bansuri
In my opinion:
- deep lows aren't really useful on a recording amp, because those lows are more cleanly taken from the direct signal from the amp (or even before the amp, sometimes)
- deep lows can be problematic in bad/small rooms
- ported designs can sometimes be a bit more problematic in bad rooms or on small stages due to positioning issues, and don't record as well since lots of the sound contribution, even in the high bass region (where mic'ing the cab works better), is given by the cabinet rather than the speaker. Also, with front facing ports, if recording at high volume to push the amp, port noise may become a factor (unlikely) or may potentially pose a problem with fragile microphones (eg. ribbon mics).
- I really want to build a sealed cabinet because there is a wide range of ported cabinets on the market anyway, whereas sealed cabinets are harder to find.
- deep lows aren't really useful on a recording amp, because those lows are more cleanly taken from the direct signal from the amp (or even before the amp, sometimes)
- deep lows can be problematic in bad/small rooms
- ported designs can sometimes be a bit more problematic in bad rooms or on small stages due to positioning issues, and don't record as well since lots of the sound contribution, even in the high bass region (where mic'ing the cab works better), is given by the cabinet rather than the speaker. Also, with front facing ports, if recording at high volume to push the amp, port noise may become a factor (unlikely) or may potentially pose a problem with fragile microphones (eg. ribbon mics).
- I really want to build a sealed cabinet because there is a wide range of ported cabinets on the market anyway, whereas sealed cabinets are harder to find.
Description sound much like a PA. I have usually found staying within a venue unpleasant if the live bass sounds shallow, feels incomplete. As much as any speaker, that just sort of just plays a bit of the bass. I have been doing some experiments with empty birch speaker boxes with paper taped over the speaker driver opening. Sealed and ported. Tap that skin and listen to the voice of each box. I have only ever used a Yamaha mixer and a speaker as a mic when mic'ing a cab when experimenting, but my workshop with its tin walls seems ok. As does the school hall
I meant to draw focus to making the port noise musical. My daughter plays her home built bass amp at interschool workshops alongside half a dozen students with bass. They all play at the same time, and all the other students amps are larger Fenders and things. Ours has a 7" driver in an almost cubic foot box with that large port I mentioned earlier. It really is a Logitech Z623 repacked in a bass amp format and fitted with a preamp. Direct to the poweramp. All internal filters have been bypassed. No DI, just native raw output. This unit has a THX rating (if that means anything anymore). It comes through more authoritative, deeper and sweeter than any other amps playing at the same time in the line-up without really trying. The volume is below half rotation most times. When mic'ed with a speaker, the signal picked up sounds more composed. The port is on the side btw and any chuffing if present cant be heard over the output if driven hard enough to go into chuffing territory. We have been getting a lot of interest in the amp and folks are surprised when I tell them it's a pc speaker inside 🙂
I meant to draw focus to making the port noise musical. My daughter plays her home built bass amp at interschool workshops alongside half a dozen students with bass. They all play at the same time, and all the other students amps are larger Fenders and things. Ours has a 7" driver in an almost cubic foot box with that large port I mentioned earlier. It really is a Logitech Z623 repacked in a bass amp format and fitted with a preamp. Direct to the poweramp. All internal filters have been bypassed. No DI, just native raw output. This unit has a THX rating (if that means anything anymore). It comes through more authoritative, deeper and sweeter than any other amps playing at the same time in the line-up without really trying. The volume is below half rotation most times. When mic'ed with a speaker, the signal picked up sounds more composed. The port is on the side btw and any chuffing if present cant be heard over the output if driven hard enough to go into chuffing territory. We have been getting a lot of interest in the amp and folks are surprised when I tell them it's a pc speaker inside 🙂
70 to 85 liters sounds about right for sealed Musical instrument 15"
EBP around 60 is rule of thumb
for sealed
as you probably noticed for high efficiency drivers
like MI or Live sound.
Drivers with compliance/ mechanical ability to be sealed
can be as high as 70 to 80 EBP
Common sealed drivers are the
Eminence Legend CB158
Celestion Pulse 15
light to heavy lining with non toxic material.
such as " Polyester Batting " sheets.
Common for use with comforter blankets or quilts
sold at fabric store
1 or 2 " X braces" or " Window braces" or " Dowel Braces"
to add support to front baffle.
mainly to brace Side walls and the largest panel
which is usually the Rear panel.
It is a " cabinet" so quality of joints up to you
Common Butt joints is easy, but not as strong.
More advanced stronger cabinets would use
a Rabbet joint. Shoulder Rabbet ' more simple
and helps seal the cabinet. Or use more
advanced Double Rabbet '
With good glue joint and rabbet joint.
Silicon or Acrylic Caulking not needed.
Use waterproof PVA wood glue.
Common brand name TiteBond II fast cure
or Tite Bond III slow cure.
Clamp while glue dry. Some use minimum finish nail
or 18 gauge air nail brad. Just to hold in place for
clamps and glue to form actual bond.
EBP around 60 is rule of thumb
for sealed
as you probably noticed for high efficiency drivers
like MI or Live sound.
Drivers with compliance/ mechanical ability to be sealed
can be as high as 70 to 80 EBP
Common sealed drivers are the
Eminence Legend CB158
Celestion Pulse 15
light to heavy lining with non toxic material.
such as " Polyester Batting " sheets.
Common for use with comforter blankets or quilts
sold at fabric store
1 or 2 " X braces" or " Window braces" or " Dowel Braces"
to add support to front baffle.
mainly to brace Side walls and the largest panel
which is usually the Rear panel.
It is a " cabinet" so quality of joints up to you
Common Butt joints is easy, but not as strong.
More advanced stronger cabinets would use
a Rabbet joint. Shoulder Rabbet ' more simple
and helps seal the cabinet. Or use more
advanced Double Rabbet '
With good glue joint and rabbet joint.
Silicon or Acrylic Caulking not needed.
Use waterproof PVA wood glue.
Common brand name TiteBond II fast cure
or Tite Bond III slow cure.
Clamp while glue dry. Some use minimum finish nail
or 18 gauge air nail brad. Just to hold in place for
clamps and glue to form actual bond.
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