Downsizing our home. Designing open baffle speakers for a smallish 13 ’x 14’ room. Considering the Lii Silver 10s or TB W8-1772s. Anyone compared these in an OB? I know their Qts is a bit low, but they’ll be augmented by OB 12” powered servo subs mounted on the same baffle. They'll be powered by a (1.5 - 2 watt) 45 SET amp.
Both the Lii Silver 10s & TB W8-1772s have good reputations, but different strengths & weaknesses. I’ve not heard either or been able to locate any direct comparisons on the net. Can anyone shed some light on these 2 in an open baffle with a flea amp? Thanks.
Both the Lii Silver 10s & TB W8-1772s have good reputations, but different strengths & weaknesses. I’ve not heard either or been able to locate any direct comparisons on the net. Can anyone shed some light on these 2 in an open baffle with a flea amp? Thanks.
The W8-1808 is way more fit for OB and is the same price (at least here) as the W8-1772. It's also way more fit than the Silver 10 (at least on published specs). If you insist on Lii drivers, the Fast-10 would be more suited i think. But i don't like Lii drivers, so my choice would probally be the TB if i only got those choices.
I have the 1772 on OB. They are supported with 15" woofers.
True that the 1808 looks to fit better on OB, but the paper cone is so delicate, I would not consider using them low. When relieved of doing the lower end, they are clean and shine.
My 1772 will reach 350Hz on OB, then start dropping, and I cross a bit higher than that.
Your subwoofers might not be able to do that.
True that the 1808 looks to fit better on OB, but the paper cone is so delicate, I would not consider using them low. When relieved of doing the lower end, they are clean and shine.
My 1772 will reach 350Hz on OB, then start dropping, and I cross a bit higher than that.
Your subwoofers might not be able to do that.
I have the Tang Band W8 1808 and the Lii Crystal 10.
I’ve lived with both on the same exact baffle with the same exact associated equipment supporting them for a while.
I use a First Watt B5 for active crossover/tuning.
The bottom end is taken care of by AE Dipole 15 drivers driven by Hypex amps.
Although the Tang Band is a nice driver, it lacks something compared to the Lii.
It has a muted or muddy sound to my ears.
In my opinion the Lii has more clarity. A more neutral tone and creates a well defined three dimensional sound stage.
I also have a pair if Fostex 206e and Lowther DX3. I haven’t used them in the open baffles, but they were compared to the Tang Band in some Oris horns I have.
I would say that the Lii’s are the best all around out of the group. There may be a few things the Lowther did better in the horns in terms of detail presentation, but the Lii’s are more enjoyable to live with for me.
P.S. I’ve done apples to apples comparisons of the Lii and Tang Band with a few different amps…including my ACA monoblocks, Quicksilver Horn Monos and my First Watt F2J monoblocks.
I always go back to the F2Js…they sound beautiful with these drivers on OB.
I’ve lived with both on the same exact baffle with the same exact associated equipment supporting them for a while.
I use a First Watt B5 for active crossover/tuning.
The bottom end is taken care of by AE Dipole 15 drivers driven by Hypex amps.
Although the Tang Band is a nice driver, it lacks something compared to the Lii.
It has a muted or muddy sound to my ears.
In my opinion the Lii has more clarity. A more neutral tone and creates a well defined three dimensional sound stage.
I also have a pair if Fostex 206e and Lowther DX3. I haven’t used them in the open baffles, but they were compared to the Tang Band in some Oris horns I have.
I would say that the Lii’s are the best all around out of the group. There may be a few things the Lowther did better in the horns in terms of detail presentation, but the Lii’s are more enjoyable to live with for me.
P.S. I’ve done apples to apples comparisons of the Lii and Tang Band with a few different amps…including my ACA monoblocks, Quicksilver Horn Monos and my First Watt F2J monoblocks.
I always go back to the F2Js…they sound beautiful with these drivers on OB.
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Great responses! They both help in so many ways. chromenuts, perceval mentions his crossover point for the 1772s. May I ask what you are crossing the Crystal 10s over at using the B5? Any other lessons learned with the Lii speakers in an open baffle? By the way, how do you like the B5 and the Dipole 15s, I've read great things about them both.
Hi slhijb
I have tried playing with the crossover and other settings on the B5.
Although I have read in more than one discussion by other experienced members that they prefer to cross over higher for various reasons…I do not like to have the woofers playing any higher than about 150Hz.
Whenever I have tried pushing things toward 300Hz or so I find the tone generated for those frequencies from the woofer disagreeable.
I become more aware of where the sound is coming from instead of the speakers just disappearing.
This is especially noticeable for me when I am listening to jazz vocalists for example.
The B5 is one of the best purchases I’ve ever made…albeit used…it might be the only device I’d be willing to buy new.
No reason for you to since you can essentially build your own with the Bi Amp kit Pa gave us for the store
The B5 is perfect for someone like me that wants to experiment and not get bogged down by trying to learn how to design passive networks.
I admit it…I am a cheapskate!
I would probably not buy any of this equipment if I hadn’t found it all used at a very good price.
I only paid $700 for the Lii drivers…and they were next to new.
I personally wouldn’t pay $1100 plus shipping for them…I’d wait to find a used pair (as I did!).
If I was gonna cough up that kind of dough I would most likely put it towards trying a pair of PM6a (because they’re one of Pa’s favorites and I want to hear why).
Same goes for the AE Dipoles…they are excellent…they do exactly what they should…good clean bass on a modest sized board.
They leave nothing to be desired…and I don’t feel the need for a sub.
That probably has a lot to do with the Hypex amps driving them….I got them and the AE for a pittance because I was in the right place at the right time.
I have tried playing with the crossover and other settings on the B5.
Although I have read in more than one discussion by other experienced members that they prefer to cross over higher for various reasons…I do not like to have the woofers playing any higher than about 150Hz.
Whenever I have tried pushing things toward 300Hz or so I find the tone generated for those frequencies from the woofer disagreeable.
I become more aware of where the sound is coming from instead of the speakers just disappearing.
This is especially noticeable for me when I am listening to jazz vocalists for example.
The B5 is one of the best purchases I’ve ever made…albeit used…it might be the only device I’d be willing to buy new.
No reason for you to since you can essentially build your own with the Bi Amp kit Pa gave us for the store
The B5 is perfect for someone like me that wants to experiment and not get bogged down by trying to learn how to design passive networks.
I admit it…I am a cheapskate!
I would probably not buy any of this equipment if I hadn’t found it all used at a very good price.
I only paid $700 for the Lii drivers…and they were next to new.
I personally wouldn’t pay $1100 plus shipping for them…I’d wait to find a used pair (as I did!).
If I was gonna cough up that kind of dough I would most likely put it towards trying a pair of PM6a (because they’re one of Pa’s favorites and I want to hear why).
Same goes for the AE Dipoles…they are excellent…they do exactly what they should…good clean bass on a modest sized board.
They leave nothing to be desired…and I don’t feel the need for a sub.
That probably has a lot to do with the Hypex amps driving them….I got them and the AE for a pittance because I was in the right place at the right time.
I couldn't agree more on buying used, although I have been bitten a few times (especially on ebay) receiving damaged goods. It can be a painful experience. According to Lii, the Crystal 10s begin rolling off at about 31.5 Hz, the Silver 10s at 28.5 Hz (seems a bit optimistic). About where are you crossing over to the AEs? Do you use any compensation with the Crystal 10s (BSC or notch filter networks)? Also, not sure of the reference to Pa.
On OB? Not in a million years.
I also doubt they can achieve that from a horn or TL, either. Did you mean the published Fs spec?
Just went to over to the site and saw the published FR for the silver 10.
I'll pass. And I thought my 1772 was not easy ... that thing would cause me big headaches trying to match it. And yes, it surely needs both a BSC and a notch (or more).
Thanks Perceval. I was a little tongue in cheek with the Manufacturer's Fs data. Certainly bass roll off is much higher on an OB, especially with sub-optimal Qts drivers; however, some have claimed success when crossing higher to an appropriate woofer system. Since there is nowhere I can listen to speakers like these, I must depend on other's ears & experience. For example, chromenuts speakers are very close to what I'm considering; all be it different drivers, baffles, amplification and woofers... they are still very similar. The lessons learned can help be decide if this project is worth pursuing. Based on what has been described with the W8-1772, I've kinda shied away from them in an OB, although still considering them for a 40 to 60 liter bass reflex. Also considering the Lii F-15 in an OB, but want to finish researching the Silver 10 first.
Yep, I can only offer my own experience with them.
On this baffle, the low Qts reaches 300Hz only, before receding. After a few tests, I preferred the sound with crossing around 500Hz, since it freed the delicate paper cone from doing some mid bass work. For me, the experience was different than chrome. If crossed lower than 500Hz, it was struggling, but crossed around 500Hz and it was clear, clean and detailed.
If I had to re-do them, I'd go with the new SBAudience 15" OB woofer. I think it is a diamond in the rough, that woofer.
But looking at the Fr of the Silver 10, I'd still choose the 1772!
Or if indeed I was asked to deal with a pair of Silvers, I'd go completely active, and hammer down that wild Fr. I would not consider doing a passive network for them.
So, these are mine:
On this baffle, the low Qts reaches 300Hz only, before receding. After a few tests, I preferred the sound with crossing around 500Hz, since it freed the delicate paper cone from doing some mid bass work. For me, the experience was different than chrome. If crossed lower than 500Hz, it was struggling, but crossed around 500Hz and it was clear, clean and detailed.
If I had to re-do them, I'd go with the new SBAudience 15" OB woofer. I think it is a diamond in the rough, that woofer.
But looking at the Fr of the Silver 10, I'd still choose the 1772!
Or if indeed I was asked to deal with a pair of Silvers, I'd go completely active, and hammer down that wild Fr. I would not consider doing a passive network for them.
So, these are mine:
Hi slhijb
The basic description of the B5 and manual link:
https://www.firstwatt.com/b5.html
There is some provision for BSC in the form of a “shelving filter”.
I know I had used this feature when I was playing with my DX3 to tame its “shout” in the Oris horns.
It also mentions the bass boost feature and etc.
I am not the type of person to chase down the perfect frequency response curve with notch filters and so on.
I put the speakers in the baffles, give them a listen. If things don’t sound right, I try changing some things until I get something I can enjoy.
“Fullrange” drivers by their very nature are flawed devices…just like everything/one in this world.
You can either chose to embrace and enjoy them with all their bumps and worts…or move on to something else.
I’ve enjoyed them mostly for their simplicity and point source nature.
I have listened to the Lii’s “out of the box” with no filtering in place at all.
They do not sound horrible because of their FR chart’s characteristics.
I do believe the number one thing you can do to improve their sound quality is to remove the burden of them delivering low frequencies that a woofer can easily produce.
That crossover point is to your tastes…you should play with them if you can.
From there things only get better as you listen and twiddle.
Best of luck with your pursuit!
The basic description of the B5 and manual link:
https://www.firstwatt.com/b5.html
There is some provision for BSC in the form of a “shelving filter”.
I know I had used this feature when I was playing with my DX3 to tame its “shout” in the Oris horns.
It also mentions the bass boost feature and etc.
I am not the type of person to chase down the perfect frequency response curve with notch filters and so on.
I put the speakers in the baffles, give them a listen. If things don’t sound right, I try changing some things until I get something I can enjoy.
“Fullrange” drivers by their very nature are flawed devices…just like everything/one in this world.
You can either chose to embrace and enjoy them with all their bumps and worts…or move on to something else.
I’ve enjoyed them mostly for their simplicity and point source nature.
I have listened to the Lii’s “out of the box” with no filtering in place at all.
They do not sound horrible because of their FR chart’s characteristics.
I do believe the number one thing you can do to improve their sound quality is to remove the burden of them delivering low frequencies that a woofer can easily produce.
That crossover point is to your tastes…you should play with them if you can.
From there things only get better as you listen and twiddle.
Best of luck with your pursuit!
Once again thanks. I will be looking into the SBAudience 15" OB woofers. Was not aware of them,,, very interesting indeed. I retired last September and enjoy speaker building, so I'll have fun tinkering with the different Xover points and filters. I just want to ensure the driver selection / design from the start is good. I can't fix garbage. If the design concept is a dog going in, it will certainly bite me going out.
P.S. I read somewhere that Nelson's main speakers at the time were the Silver 10s, all be it most likley in the Lii cabinets and not OB. Yes, he apparently liked them and felt they need some level of filtration.
P.S. I read somewhere that Nelson's main speakers at the time were the Silver 10s, all be it most likley in the Lii cabinets and not OB. Yes, he apparently liked them and felt they need some level of filtration.
Yes I have a pair in their bass reflex boxes, and I plan to try some in OB's when I can find the time...
