I used to own a double stack of original martin 115B bass bins and matching tops.
They ripped… Now Im trying to DIY some new bins and overwhelmed with plans and specs from various build sites..
I want that sound again, BUT:
—smaller cab size
—reasonable cost driver
—better response/sens
--
—more efficient
—BUT… I am looking for that same tubby resonant growl, ripping disco bass, and house grind bass, is the best way to explain it.
— So a little color is ok, this is not a purist hi-fi situation. Its about bringing some Fundamental and harmonic “musically” tuned bass bins to the people, on the roller rink, dance floor or open grassy plains....
I have reviewed “all of the stock” plans on this and most sites.. and am at loss on what to make a commitment with, and start duplicating for the people.
Also open to tops matching recommendations.
Im ready to rip space/time again and bring joy to all of us post-covid folks …Please help guide me 🙂
They ripped… Now Im trying to DIY some new bins and overwhelmed with plans and specs from various build sites..
I want that sound again, BUT:
—smaller cab size
—reasonable cost driver
—better response/sens
--
—more efficient
—BUT… I am looking for that same tubby resonant growl, ripping disco bass, and house grind bass, is the best way to explain it.
— So a little color is ok, this is not a purist hi-fi situation. Its about bringing some Fundamental and harmonic “musically” tuned bass bins to the people, on the roller rink, dance floor or open grassy plains....
I have reviewed “all of the stock” plans on this and most sites.. and am at loss on what to make a commitment with, and start duplicating for the people.
Also open to tops matching recommendations.
Im ready to rip space/time again and bring joy to all of us post-covid folks …Please help guide me 🙂
In 18 hours nobody has defined what a martin 115b bass bin is.
The effect you are describing sounds like what David B. Weems calls a "boom box". Box volume too small for the driver causes a peak in bass above the Fs and a rapid roll off below that. Resonance above Fs causes the boominess. Page 55 of "designing, building, and testing your own speaker System", 4th ed. He details a procedure to obtain that effect for a driver of known Fs, Qt, and Vas. His figure 4.1 details low frequency cut off F3 for system Q of .5 to 1.5 . Boom boxes have system Q .7 or lower. High fi purists tend to like system Q of 1 or bigger for no resonances. No boominess. My in house system for classical music has 54 hz woofers of 30.75"x20.5"x23" weighing 71 lb. If I want boom I'll add a graphic equalizer and a reverb.
The bigger the system Q, the bigger the box. The lower the Fs the bigger the box. The only free lunch is using low frequency boost electronics to accentuate the lower frequencies electronically. You will notice that subs that do that are sold to consumers, and not to the PA market, because used hard such systems burn up or rip the suspension. My local music store that pushes such cheapo internal amp subs with internal bass boost is doing quite well. Amateurs starting out love a free lunch. The local shop that sold huge bass boxes to venues that were serious about their gear lasting more than a few weeks at serious volume, just became a vacant lot. The pros can order their stuff shipped in from LA or Nashville. They don't have to look at it or listen to it.
Suggest you buy the book and build some speaker you like. If you don't like your first try, you can always make a box smaller or increase the port size or length. Hint, on page 65 Mr. Weems states that to build a "boom box", drivers of Qt lower than .45 are recommended. Shouldn't be hard to find, most 15" woofers etc have Qt that low or lower. If you are not looking for 54 hz but more like 100, 12" and 10" drivers can work, too. The one free lunch trick now is Neodyum magnet drivers that can save a couple of pounds of magnet for the same performance. $50 to $100 more for carrying convenience.
You'll see more detail tips over on www.diyaudio.com/community/forums/multi-way.6/
For bass tips only see https://www.diyaudio.com/community/forums/subwoofers.63/
The effect you are describing sounds like what David B. Weems calls a "boom box". Box volume too small for the driver causes a peak in bass above the Fs and a rapid roll off below that. Resonance above Fs causes the boominess. Page 55 of "designing, building, and testing your own speaker System", 4th ed. He details a procedure to obtain that effect for a driver of known Fs, Qt, and Vas. His figure 4.1 details low frequency cut off F3 for system Q of .5 to 1.5 . Boom boxes have system Q .7 or lower. High fi purists tend to like system Q of 1 or bigger for no resonances. No boominess. My in house system for classical music has 54 hz woofers of 30.75"x20.5"x23" weighing 71 lb. If I want boom I'll add a graphic equalizer and a reverb.
The bigger the system Q, the bigger the box. The lower the Fs the bigger the box. The only free lunch is using low frequency boost electronics to accentuate the lower frequencies electronically. You will notice that subs that do that are sold to consumers, and not to the PA market, because used hard such systems burn up or rip the suspension. My local music store that pushes such cheapo internal amp subs with internal bass boost is doing quite well. Amateurs starting out love a free lunch. The local shop that sold huge bass boxes to venues that were serious about their gear lasting more than a few weeks at serious volume, just became a vacant lot. The pros can order their stuff shipped in from LA or Nashville. They don't have to look at it or listen to it.
Suggest you buy the book and build some speaker you like. If you don't like your first try, you can always make a box smaller or increase the port size or length. Hint, on page 65 Mr. Weems states that to build a "boom box", drivers of Qt lower than .45 are recommended. Shouldn't be hard to find, most 15" woofers etc have Qt that low or lower. If you are not looking for 54 hz but more like 100, 12" and 10" drivers can work, too. The one free lunch trick now is Neodyum magnet drivers that can save a couple of pounds of magnet for the same performance. $50 to $100 more for carrying convenience.
You'll see more detail tips over on www.diyaudio.com/community/forums/multi-way.6/
For bass tips only see https://www.diyaudio.com/community/forums/subwoofers.63/
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say what...? that picture is showing 215's but you keep describing 115's so just what are you driving at...and no matter what the design of the cab is, the capability of the driver matters.
if you want "that same tubby resonant growl, ripping disco bass, and house grind bass" look at scoop designs.
and there's no getting around Hoffman's law when it comes to size and efficiency.
if you want "that same tubby resonant growl, ripping disco bass, and house grind bass" look at scoop designs.
and there's no getting around Hoffman's law when it comes to size and efficiency.
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I need an account I can use to give just witty, slightly sarcastic replies, from time-to-time? Anybody else!?
You're basically looking for a low dropping kick bin (60 Hz up till it meets the tops). So, you're first option is a 40 - 100 Hz bass bin (assuming Punish means Punisher) MKII. The Martin has a fold in there, so by grunt you might refer to the horn-blocking-2nd-order-harmonics or the 1/4 wavelength resonance or the folded horn distinct sound.
Considering you're using tops at probably anything over 210 Hz, my first guess would be the HD15 (no link don't want to make it to easy), Cubo Kick 15 with 2 port dividers blocked (self promotion at it finest), a typical 15" W-bin, or the same exact cabinet with a gutsy driver and amplifier.
Captain Morgan
You're basically looking for a low dropping kick bin (60 Hz up till it meets the tops). So, you're first option is a 40 - 100 Hz bass bin (assuming Punish means Punisher) MKII. The Martin has a fold in there, so by grunt you might refer to the horn-blocking-2nd-order-harmonics or the 1/4 wavelength resonance or the folded horn distinct sound.
Considering you're using tops at probably anything over 210 Hz, my first guess would be the HD15 (no link don't want to make it to easy), Cubo Kick 15 with 2 port dividers blocked (self promotion at it finest), a typical 15" W-bin, or the same exact cabinet with a gutsy driver and amplifier.
Captain Morgan
turk 182:
Sorry, Im seeing now that I hastily grabbed that pic of the wrong bottoms. Mine were in fact a single 15 with a flared mouth. I attached a better pic of the bins, along with a Ferrari that I would have no interest in owning, maintaining or driving compared to less expensive and more efficient modern options.The big question that's been on my mind with Scoops and tapped horns: Why is there not phase cancellation problems with these designs?
Could you explain more to a noob of what this means in a simple way...? and what I would be looking for to reproduce it? Any classic horn?
Also I conciser this sound to be more of an instrument then a hifi speaker...
"Honey what are you doing this weekend? Im going to the park to play the bass horn for folks" See what I mean?
Attachments
there are problems but that's exactly what gives them the characteristic sound your seeking, tapped horns for bass is a newer development and may not be what your looking for in sonic character but may check the size and efficiency marks of your criteria.
with 115's i used to run no less than 4 per side unless venue size dictated otherwise.
i always liked Phillishave mid's....
what do you guys think about this box?
They are saying its a smaller 15" driver version of the 186 cabinet.
https://www-araaudio-com.translate....uto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Does anyone know where to get frequency response data for it and better plans?
Also..Why are there so many speaker plans floating around the Maylaisa part of the world?
They are saying its a smaller 15" driver version of the 186 cabinet.
https://www-araaudio-com.translate....uto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Does anyone know where to get frequency response data for it and better plans?
Also..Why are there so many speaker plans floating around the Maylaisa part of the world?
Folded horn is going to be a lot heavier than a scoop or W rear facing box. All that plywood. You were looking for portability?
The longer sound path may accentuate ultra low frequencies, which is not exactly the effect you were looking for.
The longer sound path may accentuate ultra low frequencies, which is not exactly the effect you were looking for.
The Martin cabinets were all variants of hyperbolic-exponential front-loaded horn flares, with a slot across the throat of the driver to increase the compression ratio.
The closest modern production cabinet to this is the Danley DBH218. The closest DIY box is Scott Hinson’s Neman Horn, which can be found on his DIYRM Facebook page with plans and a great write-up.
Neither are small, but that's a given for a cutoff of 40 Hz or below on any box that uses some form of horn - including a tapped horn or rear-loaded horn aka scoop.
If you'd rather be a little more authentic, then there are close enough plans for Martin F2B out there, and that was by far the pinnacle of those cabinet styles before they moved onto porting the rear chamber for more low-frequency extension.
You will however need fewer of either to get the same output as a stack of the vintage 115, so horses for courses.
Alternatively, the later Martin boxes like the WMX and WLX might do it for you. They're much smaller, and use ports to get there. Plans are out there for both too, if you look.
The closest modern production cabinet to this is the Danley DBH218. The closest DIY box is Scott Hinson’s Neman Horn, which can be found on his DIYRM Facebook page with plans and a great write-up.
Neither are small, but that's a given for a cutoff of 40 Hz or below on any box that uses some form of horn - including a tapped horn or rear-loaded horn aka scoop.
If you'd rather be a little more authentic, then there are close enough plans for Martin F2B out there, and that was by far the pinnacle of those cabinet styles before they moved onto porting the rear chamber for more low-frequency extension.
You will however need fewer of either to get the same output as a stack of the vintage 115, so horses for courses.
Alternatively, the later Martin boxes like the WMX and WLX might do it for you. They're much smaller, and use ports to get there. Plans are out there for both too, if you look.
no slots in either the 115 or 215 in the early horns so not sure which cabs your thinking of....perhaps the MKII which did away with the angled cab for truck pack that version did slot load but needed a really good driver to survive a season of touring.
the Hinson Neman horn is for 18's so would be larger and heavier.
i agree with the fact that the WMX would be the frontrunner in output but they are 18's as well and size wise they are pretty close to two 115's stacked.
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Thanks for the recommendations guys.
Im definitely not needing to be in the same 115b Martin cab dimension ballpark.
a single fold will work.
someone pointed out Hoffmanns law to me on only being able to have 2 out 3 factors:
Cab size vs. efficiency vs. bass extension
so I guess I would weight what im looking for
36/100 reduction in cab size
28/100 Sacrifice a little efficiency
36/100 Maintain bass response
it seems like the punisher mkII kind of meets the above, and compensates for efficiency by using some kind of unusual driver, witch is unfortunately pretty expensive:/
but the frequency response is pretty good for the smaller cab.
any other recommendations that are closer to that, I guess we can call it the “Hoffmann ratting” ??
does anyone have info on the 15” version of the 1850 cab?
Im definitely not needing to be in the same 115b Martin cab dimension ballpark.
a single fold will work.
someone pointed out Hoffmanns law to me on only being able to have 2 out 3 factors:
Cab size vs. efficiency vs. bass extension
so I guess I would weight what im looking for
36/100 reduction in cab size
28/100 Sacrifice a little efficiency
36/100 Maintain bass response
it seems like the punisher mkII kind of meets the above, and compensates for efficiency by using some kind of unusual driver, witch is unfortunately pretty expensive:/
but the frequency response is pretty good for the smaller cab.
any other recommendations that are closer to that, I guess we can call it the “Hoffmann ratting” ??
does anyone have info on the 15” version of the 1850 cab?
I've owned 115s with slots, but they were probably faked. It's kind of hard to tell genuine ones from the many, many copies that turned up across Europe in that era. 215Mk3 and F2B are where it's at, though. Truck friendly, same impact, easier to drive without seeing confetti...
At one point, I had 32 Punisher Mk2 in our storage. They're pretty good, but very much thermally limited, and in practice a pair of them takes up the same kind of volume as say a F218. They're also a pain in the *** to move around in singles, so I'd very much recommend doubling up for transport purposes.
Another way to look at Hoffman's law is "no free lunch". Going a bit bigger in volume and driver size gets you a lot more for the given input level. Based on that, and the discrepancies I've personally measured and heard between many DIY FLH Hornresp plots nad reality, I'd personally take the Hinson design.
At one point, I had 32 Punisher Mk2 in our storage. They're pretty good, but very much thermally limited, and in practice a pair of them takes up the same kind of volume as say a F218. They're also a pain in the *** to move around in singles, so I'd very much recommend doubling up for transport purposes.
Another way to look at Hoffman's law is "no free lunch". Going a bit bigger in volume and driver size gets you a lot more for the given input level. Based on that, and the discrepancies I've personally measured and heard between many DIY FLH Hornresp plots nad reality, I'd personally take the Hinson design.
Hinson cab looks like a bad boy, But its 300+lbs. I could put casters on it but would need a lift gate to get it in the truck, or a crew.
I should also give more context into my use:
small club nights, and possibly some outdoor roller skate disco. Mostly house oriented. Still feeling out peoples post-Covid vibes, so I’m not ready to invest in the Hinson stack bad boy system just yet. But I need my long throw fix, and want to share that horn hologram-like growl sound with folks for now.. without any vehicle upgrades etc..
I should also give more context into my use:
small club nights, and possibly some outdoor roller skate disco. Mostly house oriented. Still feeling out peoples post-Covid vibes, so I’m not ready to invest in the Hinson stack bad boy system just yet. But I need my long throw fix, and want to share that horn hologram-like growl sound with folks for now.. without any vehicle upgrades etc..
well i would like to see a slot loaded 115, cause i cant picture how the driver would be mounted without creating an access hatch into the doghouse...or a secondary cover for the driver but wouldn't it interfere with the backplate deflector?
for me the need for high pass filtering with large caps to limit excursion was always the lynch pin of that design, in later times when amps started including high pass filters one could eliminate those.
4530 style scoops are far easier for a one man load and easier to build but that's merely my opinion.
for me the need for high pass filtering with large caps to limit excursion was always the lynch pin of that design, in later times when amps started including high pass filters one could eliminate those.
4530 style scoops are far easier for a one man load and easier to build but that's merely my opinion.
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There are many responses where I have to 'speak my mind' offline, then have to edit it to the point where it's a whole new draft. 🙁
'throw' dosen't exist for subs
Just get a ramp (cheaper than a tail lift) you don't want to carry even a smaller sub. BTW subs only have directivity by having large baffles or been arrayed so there isn't 'throw'.
Just get a ramp (cheaper than a tail lift) you don't want to carry even a smaller sub. BTW subs only have directivity by having large baffles or been arrayed so there isn't 'throw'.