There is lot of discussion going on about soundstage, but i found almost no actual information in that thread.
Here is a good test of your soundstage. Please play 3rd track on annie lennox album 'bare' and report back if you hear your 2 channel audio to circle around your head.
Here is a good test of your soundstage. Please play 3rd track on annie lennox album 'bare' and report back if you hear your 2 channel audio to circle around your head.
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I was thinking of a thread where people could suggest tracks with what they think is exceptional soundstaging. Unfortunately, I only have 'Medusa' by her. I dont trust the YT rendition to provide the effect...
Hi Adason,
My issue with this topics is that there is no definition of what it is.
I'm not sure we can really use this kind of production effects to define soundstage: in my view it'll give you more info about your loudspeaker's own quality ( and room behavior) than real info about 'soundstage' ( even if it is linked).
For recording stereo we use different mics couple and each one has it's pro and con including 'distortion' of the soundstage as it is defined in this case ( we have definition of what it is suposed to be). Another reason why nobody talk about the same thing imo.
A/B spaced couple for example ( the most used in my experience, based on Delta time for stereo) is good at ambiance rendering but very poor for a clean localisation of source within an auditory scene.
X/Y which is a coincident is much more precise in it's rendering of localisation ( based on Delta level) but is 'dryer', there is less infos about the 'ambiance' cues.
In between there is an infinity of variation mixing both approach together. Each one gives a kind of rendering which may or may not be what a listener is expecting.
As there is aesthetical choice involved too it may just be that some dislike choices made by a label in their own esthetic.
Anyway,
Yes i hear them. Dave Stewart used this kind of effects in Eurithmics too like in 'i love you like a ball and chains'
My issue with this topics is that there is no definition of what it is.
I'm not sure we can really use this kind of production effects to define soundstage: in my view it'll give you more info about your loudspeaker's own quality ( and room behavior) than real info about 'soundstage' ( even if it is linked).
For recording stereo we use different mics couple and each one has it's pro and con including 'distortion' of the soundstage as it is defined in this case ( we have definition of what it is suposed to be). Another reason why nobody talk about the same thing imo.
A/B spaced couple for example ( the most used in my experience, based on Delta time for stereo) is good at ambiance rendering but very poor for a clean localisation of source within an auditory scene.
X/Y which is a coincident is much more precise in it's rendering of localisation ( based on Delta level) but is 'dryer', there is less infos about the 'ambiance' cues.
In between there is an infinity of variation mixing both approach together. Each one gives a kind of rendering which may or may not be what a listener is expecting.
As there is aesthetical choice involved too it may just be that some dislike choices made by a label in their own esthetic.
Anyway,
Yes i hear them. Dave Stewart used this kind of effects in Eurithmics too like in 'i love you like a ball and chains'
I think soundstage applies best to acoustic music, specifically to the recording of an orchestra or instruments in a hall. An excellent soundstage would reproduce the sound of the orchestra in the space, with sound seeming to come from a much larger space. Based on the sound, your sense of the size of the room is much larger than your actual listening room. How close is the auditory experience of your stereo system to actually sitting in the hall at the live performance? Much of this depends on the recording technique. If all the instruments are miked closely, there is very little hall reflected sound. But, some recordings will also mix mikes that are positioned specifically to capture only hall reflected sound, and when added to the mix, it gives a sense of improved soundstage.
Chiming in as I din‘t know the album but I’m fascinated by soundstage:
- in my budget friendly system I can clearly hear the sound of track 3 (The Hunting Time), coming and moving from somewhere between my 9 o‘clock and 3 o’clock. In some occasions it feels like slightly behind me (like in the first 20” of the song)
- however as I was listening to it in a pretty small bedroom, what I appreciated the most was the illusion to be in a much, much bigger room especially in terms of width and height, which kinda makes me agree more with @hifiamps definition of soundstage (or at least the latter is the kind of “soundstage” I’m after and that I find more pleasing).
Yes, track is perceived as described.
To me, soundstage means illusion that music absolutely doesn’t come from the loudspeakers but from the stage behind them and that artists and instruments positions are well discernable, without special effort or concentration. Impression must be imposed on listener. IMO, apart from recording, that ability mostly relies on loudspeakers quality
With my modest system, stage usually starts about 3-5 m behind, and can be very deep with good lateral sound source positioning.
To me, soundstage means illusion that music absolutely doesn’t come from the loudspeakers but from the stage behind them and that artists and instruments positions are well discernable, without special effort or concentration. Impression must be imposed on listener. IMO, apart from recording, that ability mostly relies on loudspeakers quality
With my modest system, stage usually starts about 3-5 m behind, and can be very deep with good lateral sound source positioning.
Great idea. Please feel free to post your test tracks.
Does not have to be specifically soundstage.
For acoustic sound for instance nils lofgren track 5.
Nice thread adason - I will watch as I find the topic very interesting.
Believe it or not, I was searching last night for the opposite - looking for some tracks that have zero soundstage. I want to use it for demo against good soundstage tracks. Still working on it and will report if anyone else is interested.
Believe it or not, I was searching last night for the opposite - looking for some tracks that have zero soundstage. I want to use it for demo against good soundstage tracks. Still working on it and will report if anyone else is interested.
2 cents,
Dr. Dre productions from circa 2000 are surprising by their lack of width. They sound great from a freq pov, but all seems to be center panned.
Adason, the guy walking is a great way to test the rendering of couples. I used it many times. It's even better to ask if the guy can count while moving as it give visual cues of where he/she is located while recording.
Dr. Dre productions from circa 2000 are surprising by their lack of width. They sound great from a freq pov, but all seems to be center panned.
Adason, the guy walking is a great way to test the rendering of couples. I used it many times. It's even better to ask if the guy can count while moving as it give visual cues of where he/she is located while recording.
BBC Proms on Radio 3. Well recorded, mostly Decca tree sound, in Royal Albert Hall, a very large hall. Better SQ if you are in the UK, or if you can successfully spoof the geowalls. CDs available of these recordings.
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definition of Soundstage:
In the world of audiophiles, soundstage (or speaker image) is an imaginary three-dimensional space created by the high-fidelity reproduction of sound in a stereo speaker system; in other words, the soundstage allows the listener to hear the location of instruments when listening to a given piece of music.
From Stereophile Glossary:
soundstaging, soundstage presentation The accuracy with which a reproducing system conveys audible information about the size, shape, and acoustical characteristics of the original recording space and the placement of the performers within it.
soundstage shift Apparent lateral movement of the soundstage when listening from either side of the sweet spot.
spacious Presenting a broad panorama of ambience, which may be wider than the distance between the loudspeakers.
soundstaging, soundstage presentation The accuracy with which a reproducing system conveys audible information about the size, shape, and acoustical characteristics of the original recording space and the placement of the performers within it.
soundstage shift Apparent lateral movement of the soundstage when listening from either side of the sweet spot.
spacious Presenting a broad panorama of ambience, which may be wider than the distance between the loudspeakers.
Related terms are imaging and stereo imaging:
imaging The measure of a system's ability to float stable and specific phantom images, reproducing the original sizes and locations of the instruments across the soundstage. See "stereo imaging."
stereo imaging The production of stable, specific phantom images of correct localization and width. See "soundstaging," "vagueness," "wander."
imaging The measure of a system's ability to float stable and specific phantom images, reproducing the original sizes and locations of the instruments across the soundstage. See "stereo imaging."
stereo imaging The production of stable, specific phantom images of correct localization and width. See "soundstaging," "vagueness," "wander."
Ok.
I've got an issue with the 3D: with stereo technique you can't record the Height. Only depth and width. For height to be recorded you need an array of microphone ( like ambisonic).
The only way to experience height with stereo is binaural.
If we experience height in playback then our loudspeakers or room ( or both) trick us imho.
Both other explanation are in agreements with the def i have learned though..
I've got an issue with the 3D: with stereo technique you can't record the Height. Only depth and width. For height to be recorded you need an array of microphone ( like ambisonic).
The only way to experience height with stereo is binaural.
If we experience height in playback then our loudspeakers or room ( or both) trick us imho.
Both other explanation are in agreements with the def i have learned though..
Well there certainly is a sense of height. And it's all a trick. To my ear, the best stereo recordings for soundstage are done with a Decca tree or the Mercury Living Presence or Everest. These techniques use just three high quality omnidirectional mics. Acoustic room treatment should "remove" reflected sound in the room by either absorption and/or diffusion. The goal is that the only sound "heard" is directly from the speakers.
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My go to for real imaging is redbird. 4 friends and a few instruments sitting around a single stereo mike in the living room.
I'm thinking a good soundstage is not hearing or being able to locate the speakers. Only the artists and their instrument. I find a large variation of persevered soundstage between recordings, some good, others, well ok. Width and height seems easier to achieve than depth. Room treatment is necessary to get the most effect. My 2 cents.....
since my 2 cent about soundstage improvement were ignored in the other thread:
My personal view an 3D-Soundstage:
There are two dimensions in Music-Recordings:
Left-Right (Stereo-Panorama)
Front-Back (depth-graduation)
Impact on Stereo-Panorama sorted importance:
Often this psycho acoustical effect is 'created' in the studio by using reverb, delays, eq, compression or by using a special miking in combination with the recording room. If the recording and mixing is done well, you will get the illusion that some event are closer to the listener and others further away.
Sorted by imortance:
My personal view an 3D-Soundstage:
There are two dimensions in Music-Recordings:
Left-Right (Stereo-Panorama)
Front-Back (depth-graduation)
Impact on Stereo-Panorama sorted importance:
- Position of speakers in the room and listening position.
- Respect rules of Stereo-Triangle
- Make sure the speakers have (if possible) the same distances to the side walls
- Speakers not too close to rear wall.
- Acoustical room treatment:
- Minimum is to put acoustical absorbers on the first reflection points of side walls and wall behind speaker following the mirror method
- Speaker Quality
- Speaker Dispersion (Especially 'horitzontal Dispersion' for stereo panorama)
- should be constant over all angles
- A wide Dispersion will result in a wider soundstage but might be less focused (more difficult to separate single audio events from each other)
- A smaller dispersion (like speakers with waveguides) will result in a more focused but not so wide soundstage
- It often depends on personal preferences
- 'Matched' Frequency responce of left and right speakers
- Speaker Dispersion (Especially 'horitzontal Dispersion' for stereo panorama)
- Amp / Pre-Amp / DAC:
- Should be able to have a good left-right channel seperation
- Cables, Power Supply:
- has a huge impact, but only on full moon nights
Often this psycho acoustical effect is 'created' in the studio by using reverb, delays, eq, compression or by using a special miking in combination with the recording room. If the recording and mixing is done well, you will get the illusion that some event are closer to the listener and others further away.
Sorted by imortance:
- Avoiding reflection from your room. Move your speaker into near field.
- The source material needs to be produced well. If the information is missing in the recording it will never come back.
- Having a good speaker with a constant on axis and in room energy frequency responce.
- Also the ability of the speaker to reproduce deep base (down to ~40 Hz) will increase the illusion of virtual room size.
- Low distortion of speaker, also low intermodulation distortion is useful to separate critical sound events (like reverbs or hall effects)
- Tread your room also in the base area to make sure that room modes will not overlap the critical midrange.
- A nice amp/DAC/... might change a bit (often more psychological than audible). Keep in mind: even the professional Studio Monitors like Neumann, Genelec,..., where the Music was procued on, are active speakers with very cheap chip-amps inside (but of course well integrated)