Hi all, just looking for anyone with experience of the Nagaoka Swan designs, the bits and pieces I can find seem to be love/hate but they still pop up years after the plans were made.
I like the distinctive shape but wondering if they have since been surpassed with modern design methods/sims. Would likely be building the 101S Super Swan with FE108e∑ or FE108SS if I can figure out how to import them...
I like the distinctive shape but wondering if they have since been surpassed with modern design methods/sims. Would likely be building the 101S Super Swan with FE108e∑ or FE108SS if I can figure out how to import them...
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Save the trees. Use fullrange as midteeter only, in small box, add woofer in ordinary closed box.
Less work, way better sound.
Less work, way better sound.
I have not seen a bad review, but not that many people having built them. There is a lot of pieces.
Best box i have heard FE108e∑ in was AIko (now on their way to TO), note that they also have lots of pieces but it is a 2D puzzle not a 3D one.
dave
Best box i have heard FE108e∑ in was AIko (now on their way to TO), note that they also have lots of pieces but it is a 2D puzzle not a 3D one.
dave
If well done a WAW has some decided advantages to just a FR alone. But everything can be scewed up.
dave
dave
I already have some multi-way floorstanders but got a taste for full range after trying a few DIY designs. Something unique about the sound that I am already missing after selling my last build. However they were enormous so looking for a slightly more room friendly cabinet with the same character and (fairly) easy build
All small fullranges distort heavily below ~200 Hz. Even if you extend low range with back horn, you get bass distortion muddying midrange. But suit yourself.
It depends what you mean by surpassed. The Swans get low, reasonable gain also as I recall, but they're fairly characterful as they're very much an expanding QW (no horn action to speak of) so response isn't the most neutral. As Dave says, they had / have a following, especially in Japan where listening priorities often differ as people key off different things.
'All small fullranges distort heavily below ~200Hz' is over-generalised as no comparative baseline is given. As a very broad ROT, all small drivers tend to have higher distortion in the LF compared to an equally well designed larger unit of similar general type (note caveat). For instance, you can womble over to Zaph's still-excellent site, & look at the measured distortion plots on the 'small driver comparison' section. Comparing the HD plots is instructive. Several widebands there for example do not have inferior HD performance to roughly equivalent sized & priced midbass units so we are back to living with context.
Liked the sound of a 3D puzzle so decided to give the Swans a try, can always fall back on Aiko if the character isn't for me. Looks like a more room friendly Haruna which I made previously and enjoyed a lot. (why did I sell them 😭) The drivers just landed and look/feel fantastic, incredibly heavy and over built for such a small cone.
I've had to re-jig the plans a little to suit 18mm material (15mm Birch ply seems hard to come by where I am) Most of it is easy enough to adjust, but the pathway inside panels 1,2,3,4 changes a fair bit, am I right in thinking I just need to maintain the cross sectional area to avoid upsetting anything?
I've had to re-jig the plans a little to suit 18mm material (15mm Birch ply seems hard to come by where I am) Most of it is easy enough to adjust, but the pathway inside panels 1,2,3,4 changes a fair bit, am I right in thinking I just need to maintain the cross sectional area to avoid upsetting anything?
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Looking forward to your build and impressions. I love Nagaoka and other off-beat vintage stuff. 🙂
Thanks to an extended holiday around Europe my Swans have been on hold for a while but definitely not forgotten. Managed to get some time on the CNC router in my old job and borrow some tools to get things back on track, Dave was spot on about the 3D puzzle aspect, lots of parts for a relatively small box and many interlocking peices thanks to added rebates. This was a dry test fit to check my adjustments, all seems to fit together nicely. The stack on the left shows how much is in one of these things, about 3/4 of an 8'x4' sheet of ply! I have cheated slightly by adding dowels to help with alignment, have had difficulties in the past with parts moving around when clamping and hopefully the dowels will keep things nice and square to prevent gaps.
I saw a video where a guy built these without a CNC. I cam only hardly imagine building these with the use of my CNC. In any case, they look great and I would like to hear a pair if it was worth the effort.
Cool, looking forward to reading about your experiences.
FWIW, I simmed a small and simple Nagaoka design (can't remember the model name) and it was interesting. Response didn't seem too impressie at first, it was more of a slower roll-off below 100Hz. It was intended as a corner horn. Playing with EQ to emulate room gain, the simulation suggested pretty strong and deep bass below 40 Hz, perhaps even too much bass. It seemed optimized for maximum bass extension and soft listening, in a small space.
The design you are building is definitely different and may have different goals. But I suspect Nagaoka knew his trade very very well and that the design you are building will be good. When you recognize the situation it was intended for.
FWIW, I simmed a small and simple Nagaoka design (can't remember the model name) and it was interesting. Response didn't seem too impressie at first, it was more of a slower roll-off below 100Hz. It was intended as a corner horn. Playing with EQ to emulate room gain, the simulation suggested pretty strong and deep bass below 40 Hz, perhaps even too much bass. It seemed optimized for maximum bass extension and soft listening, in a small space.
The design you are building is definitely different and may have different goals. But I suspect Nagaoka knew his trade very very well and that the design you are building will be good. When you recognize the situation it was intended for.
The bits I have read seem to suggest the swans are very sensitive to rooms and placement, but when set up appropriately they can be excellent. Should be fun to tweak and play around with anyway. The build is progressing nicely, even with a lot of parts they are easily split into separate smaller 'modules' - body, neck and head. Theres a lot going on in there for what looks like a simple wooden box! Unfortuantely one of the sheets of ply I got was pretty rough, the last the supplier had available which means paint is on the cards, a major bummer since I'm terrible at painting. Hopefully I dont ruin them at the final hurdle...
Getting close now, paint certainly isn't perfect but better than I was expecting given my track record. If they sound good and become long term keepers I might sand them down and take them to get painted by someone who actually knows what they are doing! Just the hardware left to go in, should be up and running tomorrow once the paint is fully dry. Can't wait to try them out.
So the Swans are in, a whole lot easier to wrestle up the stairs then the Haruna cabinets were! Just connected to my AV receiver for now to get some hours on the drivers and initial impressions are.... interesting. First thing I noticed was the bass, hardly believeable for a cone 65mm across but it's a little excessive and will need some damping and adjustment to reign in. There appears to be a bit of a shelf between 90 and 250hz which overpowers the midrange a little, have so far tried some loose fill in the neck and that has definitely helped.
Coming from the giant Harunas which could fill the room with sound I was worried the tiny 108's would sound a bit thin and weak but no worries on that front, it's quite a magic trick to get something so small to sound rich and full, as suggested above it seems Nagaoka did indeed know his stuff.
Other than that they have similar characteristics to other FR designs I have tried, ie. excellent imaging and 'natural' sound but the trade-offs are even more pronounced, primarily them being absolutely merciless with source quality. Some tracks can sound plain horrible while others are amazing (why is it that older stuff always seems better?) I read on a Japanese page something that roughly translated as - ' a $5 radio can beat them on some things but on others they sound like a million dollar HiFi' Seems quite accurate so far!
Anyway plenty of break in, tweaking and tuning to do yet and get the EL34 amp out of storage. I could however use some suggestions on damping for the head, since (english) info is thin on the ground. At the moment I just have a piece of rough felt on the back behind the driver, should the top and sides be covered as well?
Coming from the giant Harunas which could fill the room with sound I was worried the tiny 108's would sound a bit thin and weak but no worries on that front, it's quite a magic trick to get something so small to sound rich and full, as suggested above it seems Nagaoka did indeed know his stuff.
Other than that they have similar characteristics to other FR designs I have tried, ie. excellent imaging and 'natural' sound but the trade-offs are even more pronounced, primarily them being absolutely merciless with source quality. Some tracks can sound plain horrible while others are amazing (why is it that older stuff always seems better?) I read on a Japanese page something that roughly translated as - ' a $5 radio can beat them on some things but on others they sound like a million dollar HiFi' Seems quite accurate so far!
Anyway plenty of break in, tweaking and tuning to do yet and get the EL34 amp out of storage. I could however use some suggestions on damping for the head, since (english) info is thin on the ground. At the moment I just have a piece of rough felt on the back behind the driver, should the top and sides be covered as well?
I wish I had a suggestion, but instead im really just curious. Are they smoothing out at all? They really work well with the room aesthetic.
Smoothing a little, there was a bit of a dip at 1KHz which seems to be evening out with use. Also realised the bass shelf is being caused by the left channel being in a corner, may need to re-jig the layout to fix that though.