I'm looking for suitable speaker elements for an art project as I'm trying to help a well known musician with a project. He wants to make a woodwind orchestra so that every instrument would be represented by its own speaker element. That means that the speaker elements should give a realistic and believable impression of one instrument played at normal intensity.
The elements does not have to be the same for every instrument but they should be in line with each other as they should give a coherent soundpicture. The highest notes comes from a piccolo 630hz-5khz (with harmonies going probably higher than the human ear can grasp) and the lowest the bassoon 55-575hz or the double bassoon 25-200hz. The speaker elements would be built into note stands.
The speaker element would have to be loud enough to mimic real instruments (some of the instruments play solos). The sound quality should be enough to render the quality of the recorded sound but of coarse it is only one note from each elements at the time. A concern is also the directivity of the sound as the sound should spread to all directions, guess that the diameters of the elements should be as small as possible.
And then there is of coarse the question about money as it is an art project and a lot of elements. The budget is almost zero.
Would be very thankful for any advise about suitable speaker elements and about necessary specifications. I have little experience about sound-pressure etc.
Thanks,
Mark
The elements does not have to be the same for every instrument but they should be in line with each other as they should give a coherent soundpicture. The highest notes comes from a piccolo 630hz-5khz (with harmonies going probably higher than the human ear can grasp) and the lowest the bassoon 55-575hz or the double bassoon 25-200hz. The speaker elements would be built into note stands.
The speaker element would have to be loud enough to mimic real instruments (some of the instruments play solos). The sound quality should be enough to render the quality of the recorded sound but of coarse it is only one note from each elements at the time. A concern is also the directivity of the sound as the sound should spread to all directions, guess that the diameters of the elements should be as small as possible.
And then there is of coarse the question about money as it is an art project and a lot of elements. The budget is almost zero.
Would be very thankful for any advise about suitable speaker elements and about necessary specifications. I have little experience about sound-pressure etc.
Thanks,
Mark
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Mark Audio CHN-50 for any that need little bass, and the CHN-110 for those that do.
Would certainly cover the ranges well, just a question whether they play loud enuff.
What kind of amplifiers, and control/feed circuit in front?
dave
Would certainly cover the ranges well, just a question whether they play loud enuff.
What kind of amplifiers, and control/feed circuit in front?
dave
Thanks, Dave. Been thinking of Mark Audios but did not know if they are loud enough and if there are some alternatives. Built a pair of Fast with alpair-7 years ago and very happy with them. Not desided the ampsystem yet, starting form the speakers. Maybe some cheap D-class amp modules or then multichannel amps.
Markus
Markus
I have some vintage Philips full rangers: 8" AD8082 (I believe) and another pair of 5" I think. Both with whizzers.
See https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/some-vintage-philips-drivers-and-motorola.350081/
Everything mentioned there is still available.
I had AD8082 in a TQWP. It was pretty impressive playing some songs with a clone of Decware Zen amplifier.
See https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/some-vintage-philips-drivers-and-motorola.350081/
Everything mentioned there is still available.
I had AD8082 in a TQWP. It was pretty impressive playing some songs with a clone of Decware Zen amplifier.
Interesting project!
If you are trying to make a whole orchestra we are taking 50 or so “elements”?
For instruments that play above 200Hz use a $10 TC9FD in a sealed 2L box with stuffing and a 1mH and 6.8ohm baffle step compensation circuit. Just a cheap 1A capable $0.50 ferrite core inductor and 1W resistor will work.
For higher octave instruments like piccolos etc, maybe 2.5in full range like TC9FD can work even.
For instruments with bass that play down lower to say 50Hz you will need more cone area and an inexpensive 5.25in driver in a bass reflex might be the most economical. Autosound speakers in a large sealed box might work too as they are high Qts and work best in larger sealed boxes.
You will need a separate amp for each of these I assume?
Tough to beat TDA8932 for $2ea. Use 12v to 24v LED SMPS wall supplies.
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mtxE7FS
If you are trying to make a whole orchestra we are taking 50 or so “elements”?
For instruments that play above 200Hz use a $10 TC9FD in a sealed 2L box with stuffing and a 1mH and 6.8ohm baffle step compensation circuit. Just a cheap 1A capable $0.50 ferrite core inductor and 1W resistor will work.
For higher octave instruments like piccolos etc, maybe 2.5in full range like TC9FD can work even.
For instruments with bass that play down lower to say 50Hz you will need more cone area and an inexpensive 5.25in driver in a bass reflex might be the most economical. Autosound speakers in a large sealed box might work too as they are high Qts and work best in larger sealed boxes.
You will need a separate amp for each of these I assume?
Tough to beat TDA8932 for $2ea. Use 12v to 24v LED SMPS wall supplies.
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mtxE7FS
Maybe you can find something useful in one of their publications:
https://blogs.aalto.fi/ktlokki/2020/04/22/home-corona-orchestra-in-its-own-concert-hall/
https://blogs.aalto.fi/ktlokki/2020/04/22/home-corona-orchestra-in-its-own-concert-hall/
Keep in mind that amplifier and speaker are a system and they need to be considered together.
ClassD multi-channel chipamps was my first thot on amplifiers.
dave
He was worried about the sensitivity of the Mark Audio, the TC9D is not as sensitive. It is cheap thou — in more senses that just the dollar cost.
dave
Faital 4FE32 could also work for instruments that don't need bass and and is slightly more sensitive and cheap. But for instruments that require bass the CHN110 is probally the best.
Most of the instruments are almost omnidirectional. Not all, off course, but most.
You should take that into account.
If you select driver for tympany, or cello, it has to be reaching quite deep and omnidirectional.
Violas and violins are omni, and will need small fullrange driver.
The driver for trumpet should be directional, as well as for similar horn type instruments.
So you need to place your selected driver into appropriate box. For directional its easy. Normal closed box. For omni, you need the driver facing up towards the diffuser.
Good luck!
One missing requirement is how loud the ordinary woodwind orchestra is and how loud each instrument is. You'll need some idea to at the outset of your project not be shooting in the dark.
For amplification, let's say you're going to use the suggested TC9FD speaker. It's got an efficiency spec of ~85 db SPL @ 1W @ 1 Meter away. Let's say a woodwind instrument typically plays at 95 db SPL at the same 1M distance. Doubling the power to 2 watts, will give you 88 db. Doubling again to 4, 91. Doubling again to 8 W, will get you 94 - that's +3db for every time you double the power into the speaker. 94 db is probably close enough...to get the volume level of the instrument about right.
Can the suggested TC9FD speaker take the beating? It has a 30W rated noise power - but that's rated at all frequencies simultaneously across some bandwidth, while the woodwind is likely playing what might as well be a single note - a single frequency and related harmonics - much tougher for a speaker to handle. Perhaps at ~1/3 of what the speaker can handle power dissipation wise - before it burns - is OK.
How loud will your synthetic orchestra be with, say, 10 of these things all playing different parts at 95db SPL, standing a meter in front of it? They have an on line calculator for that! http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-spl.htm Turns out they all add up to ~105 db, given that they're playing music; not all 10 playing the exact same note like from a test oscillator or something.
Is 105 db spl at 1 Meter loud enough? Depends on where the art installation is going to be; inside? Outside? Depends on how far away the patrons are going to be and whether the venue expects them to be able to have casual conversation - or only listen as they walk about or past the exhibit.
You may want to start with an SPL meter. Measure a woodwind orchestra you'd like to replicate? Or, bring someone's stereo into the venue where this is going to be installed, play some appropriate music through it and adjust to the sound "volume" level everyone agrees on is about right - then measure it in db SPL; average and peak. Work back from there, in terms of what amplification each instrument needs power wise, along with how many instruments you'll be replicating that will be playing all at once for the crescendo, or "peak" SPL.
All that, just to get the loudness part about right - nevermind the 3D radiation patterns of the individual instruments and SQ of the speakers mounted in the "note stands". It's a pretty ambitious project!
For amplification, let's say you're going to use the suggested TC9FD speaker. It's got an efficiency spec of ~85 db SPL @ 1W @ 1 Meter away. Let's say a woodwind instrument typically plays at 95 db SPL at the same 1M distance. Doubling the power to 2 watts, will give you 88 db. Doubling again to 4, 91. Doubling again to 8 W, will get you 94 - that's +3db for every time you double the power into the speaker. 94 db is probably close enough...to get the volume level of the instrument about right.
Can the suggested TC9FD speaker take the beating? It has a 30W rated noise power - but that's rated at all frequencies simultaneously across some bandwidth, while the woodwind is likely playing what might as well be a single note - a single frequency and related harmonics - much tougher for a speaker to handle. Perhaps at ~1/3 of what the speaker can handle power dissipation wise - before it burns - is OK.
How loud will your synthetic orchestra be with, say, 10 of these things all playing different parts at 95db SPL, standing a meter in front of it? They have an on line calculator for that! http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-spl.htm Turns out they all add up to ~105 db, given that they're playing music; not all 10 playing the exact same note like from a test oscillator or something.
Is 105 db spl at 1 Meter loud enough? Depends on where the art installation is going to be; inside? Outside? Depends on how far away the patrons are going to be and whether the venue expects them to be able to have casual conversation - or only listen as they walk about or past the exhibit.
You may want to start with an SPL meter. Measure a woodwind orchestra you'd like to replicate? Or, bring someone's stereo into the venue where this is going to be installed, play some appropriate music through it and adjust to the sound "volume" level everyone agrees on is about right - then measure it in db SPL; average and peak. Work back from there, in terms of what amplification each instrument needs power wise, along with how many instruments you'll be replicating that will be playing all at once for the crescendo, or "peak" SPL.
All that, just to get the loudness part about right - nevermind the 3D radiation patterns of the individual instruments and SQ of the speakers mounted in the "note stands". It's a pretty ambitious project!
This is actually a pretty cool project. I think you have to ask yourself how good of an outcome are you targeting? I think there would be plenty of "instrument specific choices" that could be made (even 1st trumpet that has a solo vs 2nd trumpet that doesn't)
The best part of this though is that the true quality of the speaker likely matters much less than the enclosure/directionality, and relative loudness.
I think if I was doing this project, I would start with the individual recordings (I'm assuming you're not synthesizing these instruments and instead are creating a series of individual single instrument recordings based on your initial post) these recordings, after being mixed, should provide you with the right "relative volumes" and specific frequency ranges you're in need of. From that, I think you could create a hodge podge (every instrument type uses a different type of speaker to maintain the "sectionality" or, you could largely use the same speaker and amplifier, and just modify the enclosure to recreate the specific instrument needs.
I think the "easy" answer is a good reasonably efficient fullrange driver in a mass manufactured enclosure for 85% of the instruments, and then you might have to get creative with the last 15% (bass/percussion)
The best part of this though is that the true quality of the speaker likely matters much less than the enclosure/directionality, and relative loudness.
I think if I was doing this project, I would start with the individual recordings (I'm assuming you're not synthesizing these instruments and instead are creating a series of individual single instrument recordings based on your initial post) these recordings, after being mixed, should provide you with the right "relative volumes" and specific frequency ranges you're in need of. From that, I think you could create a hodge podge (every instrument type uses a different type of speaker to maintain the "sectionality" or, you could largely use the same speaker and amplifier, and just modify the enclosure to recreate the specific instrument needs.
I think the "easy" answer is a good reasonably efficient fullrange driver in a mass manufactured enclosure for 85% of the instruments, and then you might have to get creative with the last 15% (bass/percussion)
Thank you all for very good comments. Now I have a solid ground for the nest step.
The next step is to buy some speaker elements and amplifier modules and start to do tests in a real environment. I think I will go for Markaudio and TDA8932.
Lots of work ahead but I will keep you updated.
Thanks,
Markus
The next step is to buy some speaker elements and amplifier modules and start to do tests in a real environment. I think I will go for Markaudio and TDA8932.
Lots of work ahead but I will keep you updated.
Thanks,
Markus
Last edited by a moderator:
Me too.
question: how is the musician going to feed the speakers in the note stand? does he has multitrack? it you have twenty musicians, you need to have twenty separate audio tracks recorded
does he has that capability?
question: how is the musician going to feed the speakers in the note stand? does he has multitrack? it you have twenty musicians, you need to have twenty separate audio tracks recorded
does he has that capability?