Hi Everyone
As the title suggests, I am completely new to building subs and wanted some advice on how to make this learning process as painless as possible!😀
I will try and keep this short but understand that most people here like a bit of background to help determine the best direction.
I should explain that I am currently constructing some floor standers, that started out as mini monitors (Gorens excellent Revelation mk2 www.audioexcite.com >> Revelation Two – Monitor MkII ). A house move and a bigger living room meant that 5.5" woofers just weren't enough! so they are being put into floor standers with 2 x 18w units each to beef up the low end. (active x-overs from 18w to 15w and Gorens passive x-over for the 15W to tweeter). I have built cabs with various panels that can be moved around or removed so I can play with different volumes and experiment with ported or sealed. Luckily I have a cousin who has built active speakers for some years now, helping me with this side of things (building the amps, measuring etc), but he has no experience with subs.
The reason why I am thinking of adding subs to this is because a bit more controlled low end is always a good thing 😀 and I already have 4 x SB23MFCL45-8 drive units (long story).
So now for the questions.....!
I am thinking that maybe a pair of sealed stereo subs, each with an up and down firing driver could be a good choice? (or not? - opinions please!)
Also what would be a good amp for this driver? The mains are going to be running some cheap but nice 125W modules that my cousin uses and rates highly, but I am not sure if this will provide enough grunt for subs?
I am also thinking that as LF tend to excite room modes more, maybe I should look at DSP to try and control this? (Mini DSP 2x4HD maybe?)
If I build these subs, would I be best making the mains sealed to help make integration with the subs smoother? (is that a correct assumption?)
The room they will be going into will be roughly 20sqMetres.
My main priority is clean fast bass rather than huge SPL for mainly rock and electronic music (Pink Floyd, Massive attack, Foo fighters etc)
Sorry if this is a long post. Any help/advice is welcome.
As the title suggests, I am completely new to building subs and wanted some advice on how to make this learning process as painless as possible!😀
I will try and keep this short but understand that most people here like a bit of background to help determine the best direction.
I should explain that I am currently constructing some floor standers, that started out as mini monitors (Gorens excellent Revelation mk2 www.audioexcite.com >> Revelation Two – Monitor MkII ). A house move and a bigger living room meant that 5.5" woofers just weren't enough! so they are being put into floor standers with 2 x 18w units each to beef up the low end. (active x-overs from 18w to 15w and Gorens passive x-over for the 15W to tweeter). I have built cabs with various panels that can be moved around or removed so I can play with different volumes and experiment with ported or sealed. Luckily I have a cousin who has built active speakers for some years now, helping me with this side of things (building the amps, measuring etc), but he has no experience with subs.
The reason why I am thinking of adding subs to this is because a bit more controlled low end is always a good thing 😀 and I already have 4 x SB23MFCL45-8 drive units (long story).
So now for the questions.....!
I am thinking that maybe a pair of sealed stereo subs, each with an up and down firing driver could be a good choice? (or not? - opinions please!)
Also what would be a good amp for this driver? The mains are going to be running some cheap but nice 125W modules that my cousin uses and rates highly, but I am not sure if this will provide enough grunt for subs?
I am also thinking that as LF tend to excite room modes more, maybe I should look at DSP to try and control this? (Mini DSP 2x4HD maybe?)
If I build these subs, would I be best making the mains sealed to help make integration with the subs smoother? (is that a correct assumption?)
The room they will be going into will be roughly 20sqMetres.
My main priority is clean fast bass rather than huge SPL for mainly rock and electronic music (Pink Floyd, Massive attack, Foo fighters etc)
Sorry if this is a long post. Any help/advice is welcome.
Hi,
you didn't get a spontaneous answer. May be because of your very complex plans/ situation.
For me a few things don't match. Usually people without experience do not start such over complicated projects which practically would end up as a 4-way speaker system.
Your idea of trying different volumes, ported and sealed will not get you anywhere. That's something for at least semi professional builders/ developers with measuring equipment and lots of experience.
Maybe you last points first: 20 square meters is a relative small room. Four 18 cm woofer should be quite a lot of loudspeaker for it. If you can use subs in it, for your intended listening (low SPL), is questionable. Depends more on your living situation, neighbors, room dimensions and the way the floor and walls are build.
2x 125 Watts of the usual DIYS class D amp module feed to some sub(s) should be enough to move anything in it around.
The chassis of your main speakers are very fine material. Even if I would not really recommend them for your music. It seems to me, the developer has spent a lot of time to tune the cross over to perfection.
The worst thing you can do to such a construction, is to change the dimensions of the cabinet, as even a few centimeter of the front baffle will ruin the carefully designed setup. Leave them as they are and build your additional 2x18 into some kind of stand for them, to lift them up to ear level. Keep the stands as slim as possible. That will do the least harm. You may put the 18 drivers on both sides of the stand and keep the front dimension of the top section. Do not try to cut off these woofers with a passive x-over. A good frequency to pass to the low section would be around 80 Hz.
A higher x-over will lead to a completely new speaker, as it would be 3-way in the end.
Also a well designed passive 80 Hz x-over will cost more than all other components together, while being second choice compared to an active setup.. A small DSP should do the job just perfectly.
If you have read this far, you will see that not much of your basic ideas is left.
To put it in short form:
DSP- yes, needed as x-over and room correction
2x 18-20cm woofer per side- yes, but maybe different models, more "sub-type"
125W modules- yes, even as an entry level PA amp with silenced fan(s) should be cheaper and maybe better (look at Behringer and Thomann stuff), as you can't even buy a decent housing for their prices (Think of safety, insurance, complications and time to build, too!) You get a nice T-amp for 100 Pounds... the "Behringer KM750" for example, is a nice low price sub amp if you throttle the fan a little.
Sorry, but you may get honest answers here, as most members are no sales people. May be a bit contrary to your actual plans.
you didn't get a spontaneous answer. May be because of your very complex plans/ situation.
For me a few things don't match. Usually people without experience do not start such over complicated projects which practically would end up as a 4-way speaker system.
Your idea of trying different volumes, ported and sealed will not get you anywhere. That's something for at least semi professional builders/ developers with measuring equipment and lots of experience.
Maybe you last points first: 20 square meters is a relative small room. Four 18 cm woofer should be quite a lot of loudspeaker for it. If you can use subs in it, for your intended listening (low SPL), is questionable. Depends more on your living situation, neighbors, room dimensions and the way the floor and walls are build.
2x 125 Watts of the usual DIYS class D amp module feed to some sub(s) should be enough to move anything in it around.
The chassis of your main speakers are very fine material. Even if I would not really recommend them for your music. It seems to me, the developer has spent a lot of time to tune the cross over to perfection.
The worst thing you can do to such a construction, is to change the dimensions of the cabinet, as even a few centimeter of the front baffle will ruin the carefully designed setup. Leave them as they are and build your additional 2x18 into some kind of stand for them, to lift them up to ear level. Keep the stands as slim as possible. That will do the least harm. You may put the 18 drivers on both sides of the stand and keep the front dimension of the top section. Do not try to cut off these woofers with a passive x-over. A good frequency to pass to the low section would be around 80 Hz.
A higher x-over will lead to a completely new speaker, as it would be 3-way in the end.
Also a well designed passive 80 Hz x-over will cost more than all other components together, while being second choice compared to an active setup.. A small DSP should do the job just perfectly.
If you have read this far, you will see that not much of your basic ideas is left.
To put it in short form:
DSP- yes, needed as x-over and room correction
2x 18-20cm woofer per side- yes, but maybe different models, more "sub-type"
125W modules- yes, even as an entry level PA amp with silenced fan(s) should be cheaper and maybe better (look at Behringer and Thomann stuff), as you can't even buy a decent housing for their prices (Think of safety, insurance, complications and time to build, too!) You get a nice T-amp for 100 Pounds... the "Behringer KM750" for example, is a nice low price sub amp if you throttle the fan a little.
Sorry, but you may get honest answers here, as most members are no sales people. May be a bit contrary to your actual plans.
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Hi Turbowatch
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time to answer.
To address some of your points, I should probably add the following:
My first attempt at building speakers was to use Gorens design which worked well in the really small house I was living in at the time. They sounded great. A move to a much larger house meant I needed some more cone area to play at reasonable spl.
Because Gorens design had a reasonably wide baffle for the 15w unit, I have been able to keep this width for the 18W units. The new test cabinets keep the same baffle width and also the same spacing for the tweeter from the top edge and the 15w unit from the tweeter, therefore keeping it identical to Gorens design. I have then made the cabinets quite deep (550mm) which allows the 18W units to be placed quite close for integration.
I am also keeping Gorens well developed passive x-over for the 15W/tweeter and going active for the 18w/15w x-rover. My cousin, who is an electronics engineer and has been designing and building active speakers for some years is helping me with this task. He is building the amps and active x-over set up for me (starting with 400hz to see what it sounds like, with the option of maybe dropping to 250hz). He also has good experience (and the equipment) to do the measurement side of things and lives close enough to visit. Otherwise, this project would be a little over whelming to say the least.
The sealed/ported experiment is for the 18W units only. everything else keeps Gorens design unchanged.
My room size estimate is probably a little conservative as it is yet another new home (that I haven't moved into yet) so I was having to give an educated guess. I thought giving a minimum estimate was more useful than over estimating, but yes, it isn't exactly cavernous. The floors are concrete and the house is semi detached with this room having no shared walls with a neighbour which is good. It is a very old house with 500mm thick stone walls.
The main point for my post wasn't to bog people down with questions regarding the mains as I hope that side of the design work is sensibly covered with the help I am already getting.
The main questions for me (which you did tackle, so thank you) was whether the use of subs is reasonable or not. My cousin has not built subs (he likes his neighbours! 😉 😀) or used DSP before so I thought it would be a good idea to ask questions here as their requirements for high power and the added issues with room modes present new challenges.
My initial thoughts were that if the room was relatively small then the units would have a low work load. Kind of like a big engine in a small car. I am however aware that small rooms aren't the best for bass, which is why I wanted to know whether the use of DSP would still make this a good option or whether subs in this room is just a bad idea which will bring only tears?
My other thoughts were that If the mains, as a ported design, produced good bass but over powered the room, then subs would offer greater flexibility with placement and the mains could run as sealed.
Please note that if the subs are just a bad idea then please say so and I am not too proud to write it off as a bad idea and sell the units on!😀
If it does have some merit, then some build and set up advice and links to suitable amps and DSP units would be very welcome.
Thank you for your time and apologies for another long post.
Paul
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time to answer.
To address some of your points, I should probably add the following:
My first attempt at building speakers was to use Gorens design which worked well in the really small house I was living in at the time. They sounded great. A move to a much larger house meant I needed some more cone area to play at reasonable spl.
Because Gorens design had a reasonably wide baffle for the 15w unit, I have been able to keep this width for the 18W units. The new test cabinets keep the same baffle width and also the same spacing for the tweeter from the top edge and the 15w unit from the tweeter, therefore keeping it identical to Gorens design. I have then made the cabinets quite deep (550mm) which allows the 18W units to be placed quite close for integration.
I am also keeping Gorens well developed passive x-over for the 15W/tweeter and going active for the 18w/15w x-rover. My cousin, who is an electronics engineer and has been designing and building active speakers for some years is helping me with this task. He is building the amps and active x-over set up for me (starting with 400hz to see what it sounds like, with the option of maybe dropping to 250hz). He also has good experience (and the equipment) to do the measurement side of things and lives close enough to visit. Otherwise, this project would be a little over whelming to say the least.
The sealed/ported experiment is for the 18W units only. everything else keeps Gorens design unchanged.
My room size estimate is probably a little conservative as it is yet another new home (that I haven't moved into yet) so I was having to give an educated guess. I thought giving a minimum estimate was more useful than over estimating, but yes, it isn't exactly cavernous. The floors are concrete and the house is semi detached with this room having no shared walls with a neighbour which is good. It is a very old house with 500mm thick stone walls.
The main point for my post wasn't to bog people down with questions regarding the mains as I hope that side of the design work is sensibly covered with the help I am already getting.
The main questions for me (which you did tackle, so thank you) was whether the use of subs is reasonable or not. My cousin has not built subs (he likes his neighbours! 😉 😀) or used DSP before so I thought it would be a good idea to ask questions here as their requirements for high power and the added issues with room modes present new challenges.
My initial thoughts were that if the room was relatively small then the units would have a low work load. Kind of like a big engine in a small car. I am however aware that small rooms aren't the best for bass, which is why I wanted to know whether the use of DSP would still make this a good option or whether subs in this room is just a bad idea which will bring only tears?
My other thoughts were that If the mains, as a ported design, produced good bass but over powered the room, then subs would offer greater flexibility with placement and the mains could run as sealed.
Please note that if the subs are just a bad idea then please say so and I am not too proud to write it off as a bad idea and sell the units on!😀
If it does have some merit, then some build and set up advice and links to suitable amps and DSP units would be very welcome.
Thank you for your time and apologies for another long post.
Paul
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Hi Paul,
please try to understand that two 18cm speaker per side are sub's build in.
Do not bother your cousin with building an electronic x-over, these are obsolete since decent DSP's are available,starting at around 80 pounds.
While it will take you weeks to tune in an electronic x-over, even with lots of experience, you will need an afternoon doing the same, only with a much better result, with a DSP.
Because of Brexit many things are more complicated now, a year ago I would have advised you to buy a DSP, PA amp and some wires from Thomann, as this dealer gives you plenty of time to test anything. So no risk for you and you would have been ready to try after just 5 days or so. Without cousin building complicated custom amps/x-over. You have to check if you can still order there and how conditions are.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a hard core DIYS guy, but it gets pointless if I can buy better components, finished and ready to use, for 1/3 the price of building it.
Maybe your cousin is a bit conservative, but honestly, he can not compete with European design, build in China.
please try to understand that two 18cm speaker per side are sub's build in.
Do not bother your cousin with building an electronic x-over, these are obsolete since decent DSP's are available,starting at around 80 pounds.
While it will take you weeks to tune in an electronic x-over, even with lots of experience, you will need an afternoon doing the same, only with a much better result, with a DSP.
Because of Brexit many things are more complicated now, a year ago I would have advised you to buy a DSP, PA amp and some wires from Thomann, as this dealer gives you plenty of time to test anything. So no risk for you and you would have been ready to try after just 5 days or so. Without cousin building complicated custom amps/x-over. You have to check if you can still order there and how conditions are.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a hard core DIYS guy, but it gets pointless if I can buy better components, finished and ready to use, for 1/3 the price of building it.
Maybe your cousin is a bit conservative, but honestly, he can not compete with European design, build in China.
For the x-over. Your basic speaker will sound best if you cross it over low. There is no point to ruin it's excellent performance by cutting it off at 250 Hz. If you cut it with 24 dB/oct at 80 Hz, it can play so loud that your ears start ringing, without distortion.
There seems to be some lack of experience on your side.
You asked for hardware. I do not know your budget and high end ambitions.
What amp drives the Gorens? That gives some idea of the level we are talking about.
You can do the same thing for 200 pounds or spent 1000 and get 5% improvement.
There seems to be some lack of experience on your side.
You asked for hardware. I do not know your budget and high end ambitions.
What amp drives the Gorens? That gives some idea of the level we are talking about.
You can do the same thing for 200 pounds or spent 1000 and get 5% improvement.
Hi Turbowatch
Thanks for the further advice. The reason why I was looking at crossing it over at 250 to 400 was to effectively make it a mid driver and treat it the same as most common 3 way designs. I really wanted to take most of the heavier duties away from it. I am not however against trying 80hz if that works.
The 15W driver sounded fantastic playing laid back music at low to mid SPL's. The problem was when I played things like Pink Floyd, it would sound amazing on the opening few notes but when the layers of heavier synth, bass guitar and drums would start to come in, the "magic" would disappear. 🙁 The soundstage would collapse and go into the boxes and the dynamics would be flat and lifeless but it would still be capable of playing loud. This didn't happen with light acoustic music, so it wasn't too hard to work out that the small cone simply couldn't cope with producing large amounts of bass at higher SPL.
My plan was that by buying the slightly larger version of the same driver, (and having 2 per side) it should produce a similar quality of sound but have more cone area to shift more air and just be more relaxed and keep the great dynamics the 15W had at low SPL. This may be a naive approach, I guess I will find out soon enough.
Anyway to answer the more technical side of your questions with amplification, I was previously running them with a vintage pioneer SX-737 receiver amp. It wasn't a monster at 30W, but with a set of dedicated 4 ohm outputs it was fine. The new amp modules are dual output with 125W per output each (not coupled). The idea is that one set of outputs will go to the passive x-over and the other will run the 18W drivers. My cousin has used lots of these and swears by them and at around £25 each from Ali express, they were, to my mind, a bargain. I have also heard them running both medium size stand speakers and largish MTM floor standing speakers with 7.5" drivers and they sounded very clean, controlled and capable to my ears. These are being used with two hefty 500VA toroidal transformers to effectively make a pair of active mono block power amps. The whole set up with the other necessary parts has so far has cost around £250, so not outrageous.
The active x-over that he has started with is an off the shelf 2 way 24db/oct Linkwitz-Riley unit which cost around £18. It's just a starting point, but if like you say DSP would get better results than not using it won't hurt too much. Can you point me in the direction of a good DSP unit to use with the set up I have described? Would the Mini DSP 2 x 4HD be a good start or do you think there are better choices out there?
Thanks for the further advice. The reason why I was looking at crossing it over at 250 to 400 was to effectively make it a mid driver and treat it the same as most common 3 way designs. I really wanted to take most of the heavier duties away from it. I am not however against trying 80hz if that works.
The 15W driver sounded fantastic playing laid back music at low to mid SPL's. The problem was when I played things like Pink Floyd, it would sound amazing on the opening few notes but when the layers of heavier synth, bass guitar and drums would start to come in, the "magic" would disappear. 🙁 The soundstage would collapse and go into the boxes and the dynamics would be flat and lifeless but it would still be capable of playing loud. This didn't happen with light acoustic music, so it wasn't too hard to work out that the small cone simply couldn't cope with producing large amounts of bass at higher SPL.
My plan was that by buying the slightly larger version of the same driver, (and having 2 per side) it should produce a similar quality of sound but have more cone area to shift more air and just be more relaxed and keep the great dynamics the 15W had at low SPL. This may be a naive approach, I guess I will find out soon enough.
Anyway to answer the more technical side of your questions with amplification, I was previously running them with a vintage pioneer SX-737 receiver amp. It wasn't a monster at 30W, but with a set of dedicated 4 ohm outputs it was fine. The new amp modules are dual output with 125W per output each (not coupled). The idea is that one set of outputs will go to the passive x-over and the other will run the 18W drivers. My cousin has used lots of these and swears by them and at around £25 each from Ali express, they were, to my mind, a bargain. I have also heard them running both medium size stand speakers and largish MTM floor standing speakers with 7.5" drivers and they sounded very clean, controlled and capable to my ears. These are being used with two hefty 500VA toroidal transformers to effectively make a pair of active mono block power amps. The whole set up with the other necessary parts has so far has cost around £250, so not outrageous.
The active x-over that he has started with is an off the shelf 2 way 24db/oct Linkwitz-Riley unit which cost around £18. It's just a starting point, but if like you say DSP would get better results than not using it won't hurt too much. Can you point me in the direction of a good DSP unit to use with the set up I have described? Would the Mini DSP 2 x 4HD be a good start or do you think there are better choices out there?
OK,
your impression of the sounds seems reasonable, but your explanations do not fit.
Sure, small speaker do not reproduce extreme low frequency. What you get wrong is the range where it happens. As I said, your existing speakers can play loud enough to make your ears ring. What they need is an effective protection under 80-100 Hz and a very high quality, high power amp, as this is where all the, details, dynamics and impulses happen. For example a bass drum, hit hard with the foot, begins it's sound in the upper frequency range. Take that away and it is only some moving of air left. The live attack you want to hear comes from the tweeter.
Very many old amps sound wonderful if you listen to not too complex music, like jazz with just a few instruments, but loose oversight when something like an orchestra plays together. This is typical and the cause why some swear on their vintage gear, while others just call it old junk. So the first 80% of your problem is the amp.
A x-over, primary is no solution, but a problem. The best speaker is a full range without any cross over, but only in theory. So the worst you can do is to cross over in a region where your hearing is sensibel and the speaker is performing well. You have not got this point yet, it is no odd theory, but accepted state of the art. Your top is very good down to about 80 Hz, so do not ruin it, but help it below that. If it was a mid range speaker, it would have been designed differently.
(Commercial 3-way speaker, using "mid driver", save on the expensive low frequency x-over and often use 250-400 Hz, where the parts are 1/20 of the price! From a quality point they would x-over deeper.)
So, first you need a good amp.
You seem to be convinced your cousin knows best about electronics. I understand that. I bet I have some of his Ali-amps in my workshop... picture shows a version with integrated power supply. I used them until I realized their problems The problem with them is the build quality, fake parts and the designer taking some short cuts to save parts and money. They can work very good, but as well fail without any predicable cause. If you use 500W transformers and a decent, metal case for them, you will spent quite some money. What you basically get, is noting more but such an amp:
Behringer A800 – Thomann UK
What your amp is missing is any safety and electromagnetic approval, 3 years of guarantee, a tight quality control of all inside parts and 30 days "no question asked" return option.
The main point is, if your cousins work is worth only a few pound an hour, such an amp is unbeatable in any way. This one has no fan, so fine for living rooms.
The DSP is a different animal. If you consider the Mini DSP HD we are talking about 250 pounds. I would not buy it for 100... it was the first affordable DSP for HIFI, that is it´s advantage, not it's quality.
The main question is if you insist on HIFI gear, which means high price, questionable sound quality and low value (if you sell it second hand) or are willing to take pro audio. This means low price, very high sound quality even at entry level prices and high second hand value.
Technically you have the advantage to connect such components with xlr instead of problematic cinch/ RCA wires.
Only downside of pro stuff, the real deals are often sold out. So you may have to order and wait 2-3 weeks.
Have you thought about a pre amp, if you skip your Pioneer? What sources do you use?
( I have for many years feed my amps by a CD player with adjustable output for example. No preamp, as I only listened to CD on the music system.)
You always run into this problem if you connect some kind of sub to any system.
your impression of the sounds seems reasonable, but your explanations do not fit.
Sure, small speaker do not reproduce extreme low frequency. What you get wrong is the range where it happens. As I said, your existing speakers can play loud enough to make your ears ring. What they need is an effective protection under 80-100 Hz and a very high quality, high power amp, as this is where all the, details, dynamics and impulses happen. For example a bass drum, hit hard with the foot, begins it's sound in the upper frequency range. Take that away and it is only some moving of air left. The live attack you want to hear comes from the tweeter.
Very many old amps sound wonderful if you listen to not too complex music, like jazz with just a few instruments, but loose oversight when something like an orchestra plays together. This is typical and the cause why some swear on their vintage gear, while others just call it old junk. So the first 80% of your problem is the amp.
A x-over, primary is no solution, but a problem. The best speaker is a full range without any cross over, but only in theory. So the worst you can do is to cross over in a region where your hearing is sensibel and the speaker is performing well. You have not got this point yet, it is no odd theory, but accepted state of the art. Your top is very good down to about 80 Hz, so do not ruin it, but help it below that. If it was a mid range speaker, it would have been designed differently.
(Commercial 3-way speaker, using "mid driver", save on the expensive low frequency x-over and often use 250-400 Hz, where the parts are 1/20 of the price! From a quality point they would x-over deeper.)
So, first you need a good amp.
You seem to be convinced your cousin knows best about electronics. I understand that. I bet I have some of his Ali-amps in my workshop... picture shows a version with integrated power supply. I used them until I realized their problems The problem with them is the build quality, fake parts and the designer taking some short cuts to save parts and money. They can work very good, but as well fail without any predicable cause. If you use 500W transformers and a decent, metal case for them, you will spent quite some money. What you basically get, is noting more but such an amp:
Behringer A800 – Thomann UK
What your amp is missing is any safety and electromagnetic approval, 3 years of guarantee, a tight quality control of all inside parts and 30 days "no question asked" return option.
The main point is, if your cousins work is worth only a few pound an hour, such an amp is unbeatable in any way. This one has no fan, so fine for living rooms.
The DSP is a different animal. If you consider the Mini DSP HD we are talking about 250 pounds. I would not buy it for 100... it was the first affordable DSP for HIFI, that is it´s advantage, not it's quality.
The main question is if you insist on HIFI gear, which means high price, questionable sound quality and low value (if you sell it second hand) or are willing to take pro audio. This means low price, very high sound quality even at entry level prices and high second hand value.
Technically you have the advantage to connect such components with xlr instead of problematic cinch/ RCA wires.
Only downside of pro stuff, the real deals are often sold out. So you may have to order and wait 2-3 weeks.
Have you thought about a pre amp, if you skip your Pioneer? What sources do you use?
( I have for many years feed my amps by a CD player with adjustable output for example. No preamp, as I only listened to CD on the music system.)
You always run into this problem if you connect some kind of sub to any system.
Attachments
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Talking about new gear, Amps have come a long way in 2021. I heard my first D-amp in 1985 by the way, from Sony HIFI. No new stuff.
This forum is full of threads about A, A/B, H, D amps, with transistors and valves, conventional and switched power supplies.
Any principle can give you perfect sound quality, without a chance to hear any difference between really good amps. Any other opinion is just that: opinion.
I give you a short, final and realistic conclusion: The worlds best amp, considered quality, will be a D-amp powered by a switching supply. An A or A/B amp could catch up on sound quality, but considered energy consumption, the winner is clear. Even A/B amps give better results with switched supplies, as bitter as it might be for fans of heavy amp's.
You will have many people who disagree, but that is fine. Just like talking about a good steak. Some will swear on a Scottish cow, some on the animal from Argentina, but in the end a good steak is a good steak.
That transfer to HIFI means you are free to take what sounds right for you. Today it get's hard to buy really crappy HIFI or PA amps, some really cheap stuff your aunt could spot, excluded. Alibaba, ebay and Amazon are full of such crap.
If I needed to do a decision for you, on the spot, I would point to two of the mentioned Behringer amps
Behringer A800 – Thomann UK
and this DSP:
the t.racks Achat DSP 24 – Thomann UK
Throw in some cables and you are done.
(Ah, please down load the free software from Thomann and see what you can do and have to understand with a DSP, any, not just this model)
Sorry, but your cousin can solder until his hands fall off, he will not build anything that is better than that, even if he had one year of time.
( I'm no Thomann fan boy, by the way, but they are really reliable, their service first class and prices hard to beat. Best, in their shop you find most products that are on the market today. Read what people write about the products, add a grain of salt and you know what you can expect. Competition between low cost PA stuff is incredible hard, the "t" stuff from Thomann and Behringer line are high quality for low money today. Forget what the old guys say about Behringer. That was 20-30 years ago.)
DSP: If you can hear differences in two DSP's, in most cases it will not be the core unit, but the analog input and output stages.
Also, it is made to change signals, so changes may not be the same on two different DSP's, so which one is right? A nasty trap...
If you take CD quality input, it does not matter that much if you process it with 48 or 96 kHz.
For peace of mind, take 96 kHz stuff.
If your cabinets are finished (are they?), a fast way to find out what you can expect would be this little toy: the t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini Amp – Thomann UK
I do not think you would return it, even if you take a DSP and separate amps for your system, later. Modern 50W amps are not what you expect if you use a 30W Pioneer now. While the Pioneer starts to sound stressed at some point, this new breed gets terrible loud without distortion. You have to hear it in comparison to understand. Those people that swear on tiny 2x30W amps driven, by a laptop supply, are not all idiots.
I think I have given you some stuff to think about.
At the end, even with your cousins 25$ amps and a 18$ x-over, done right you will get a very good system. You just do not save money (look up prices for cases and your whole calculation is all wrong) and will need a whole lot of your and his valuable time.
Very last point: You need a reliable measuring microphone and have to learn to use a software. REW should fit, Arta is the most mighty but quite complex. Free, no cost to try.
Without measuring, just using your superior ears, you will, in the best case, get 50% of what is possible, in the worst case ruin your speakers. DSP`s and active systems are very dangerous if used wrong. Don't even "for a try" start without working measuring system.
This is the least expensive, calibrated microphone:
Sonarworks SoundID Ref Measurement Micro – Thomann UK
but to keep things simple and need no mic pre amp, a USB version should fit better.
Looking for a miniDSP UMIK-1 measurement microphone? - SoundImports should be right for your case. Good to sell on ebay, if you don't need it any more.
Don't wast money on i-Phone or other phone app stuff or some "good" mic without an individual calibration file. There are no two identical microphones in this world! You will soon realize that you will run into problems without knowing what you really measure.
I suggest you have a Windows Laptop. You can do most with Apple and Linux too, but at a price.
PS there is nothing wrong to drive a 50W speaker with a 500W amp. Indeed in most cases better than a "fitting", tiny amp.
You can take on amp per side, so the reserve in the power supply is used for low end control.
This forum is full of threads about A, A/B, H, D amps, with transistors and valves, conventional and switched power supplies.
Any principle can give you perfect sound quality, without a chance to hear any difference between really good amps. Any other opinion is just that: opinion.
I give you a short, final and realistic conclusion: The worlds best amp, considered quality, will be a D-amp powered by a switching supply. An A or A/B amp could catch up on sound quality, but considered energy consumption, the winner is clear. Even A/B amps give better results with switched supplies, as bitter as it might be for fans of heavy amp's.
You will have many people who disagree, but that is fine. Just like talking about a good steak. Some will swear on a Scottish cow, some on the animal from Argentina, but in the end a good steak is a good steak.
That transfer to HIFI means you are free to take what sounds right for you. Today it get's hard to buy really crappy HIFI or PA amps, some really cheap stuff your aunt could spot, excluded. Alibaba, ebay and Amazon are full of such crap.
If I needed to do a decision for you, on the spot, I would point to two of the mentioned Behringer amps
Behringer A800 – Thomann UK
and this DSP:
the t.racks Achat DSP 24 – Thomann UK
Throw in some cables and you are done.
(Ah, please down load the free software from Thomann and see what you can do and have to understand with a DSP, any, not just this model)
Sorry, but your cousin can solder until his hands fall off, he will not build anything that is better than that, even if he had one year of time.
( I'm no Thomann fan boy, by the way, but they are really reliable, their service first class and prices hard to beat. Best, in their shop you find most products that are on the market today. Read what people write about the products, add a grain of salt and you know what you can expect. Competition between low cost PA stuff is incredible hard, the "t" stuff from Thomann and Behringer line are high quality for low money today. Forget what the old guys say about Behringer. That was 20-30 years ago.)
DSP: If you can hear differences in two DSP's, in most cases it will not be the core unit, but the analog input and output stages.
Also, it is made to change signals, so changes may not be the same on two different DSP's, so which one is right? A nasty trap...
If you take CD quality input, it does not matter that much if you process it with 48 or 96 kHz.
For peace of mind, take 96 kHz stuff.
If your cabinets are finished (are they?), a fast way to find out what you can expect would be this little toy: the t.racks DSP 4x4 Mini Amp – Thomann UK
I do not think you would return it, even if you take a DSP and separate amps for your system, later. Modern 50W amps are not what you expect if you use a 30W Pioneer now. While the Pioneer starts to sound stressed at some point, this new breed gets terrible loud without distortion. You have to hear it in comparison to understand. Those people that swear on tiny 2x30W amps driven, by a laptop supply, are not all idiots.
I think I have given you some stuff to think about.
At the end, even with your cousins 25$ amps and a 18$ x-over, done right you will get a very good system. You just do not save money (look up prices for cases and your whole calculation is all wrong) and will need a whole lot of your and his valuable time.
Very last point: You need a reliable measuring microphone and have to learn to use a software. REW should fit, Arta is the most mighty but quite complex. Free, no cost to try.
Without measuring, just using your superior ears, you will, in the best case, get 50% of what is possible, in the worst case ruin your speakers. DSP`s and active systems are very dangerous if used wrong. Don't even "for a try" start without working measuring system.
This is the least expensive, calibrated microphone:
Sonarworks SoundID Ref Measurement Micro – Thomann UK
but to keep things simple and need no mic pre amp, a USB version should fit better.
Looking for a miniDSP UMIK-1 measurement microphone? - SoundImports should be right for your case. Good to sell on ebay, if you don't need it any more.
Don't wast money on i-Phone or other phone app stuff or some "good" mic without an individual calibration file. There are no two identical microphones in this world! You will soon realize that you will run into problems without knowing what you really measure.
I suggest you have a Windows Laptop. You can do most with Apple and Linux too, but at a price.
PS there is nothing wrong to drive a 50W speaker with a 500W amp. Indeed in most cases better than a "fitting", tiny amp.
You can take on amp per side, so the reserve in the power supply is used for low end control.
Last edited:
Hi Turbo watch
Apologies for the slow reply.
Thanks for giving some hardware suggestions for the amps and DSP. It gives me a good starting point. I know some people swear by DSP for low freq applications but aren't too keen for higher freq as they say that the sound quality is affected by the processing. How much truth is there to this? Is it noticeable to normal ears or only when you have super high end equipment?
I am certainly interested in learning more about it, especially if it means someone like me who isn't an electronics expert can play around and get good results. I guess I now need to look for the free software from Thomann to help me understand what is involved and what some of it's capabilities are.
I plan on using my current CD player as the primary source and then buying a streamer later to add more flexibility.
Apologies for the slow reply.
Thanks for giving some hardware suggestions for the amps and DSP. It gives me a good starting point. I know some people swear by DSP for low freq applications but aren't too keen for higher freq as they say that the sound quality is affected by the processing. How much truth is there to this? Is it noticeable to normal ears or only when you have super high end equipment?
I am certainly interested in learning more about it, especially if it means someone like me who isn't an electronics expert can play around and get good results. I guess I now need to look for the free software from Thomann to help me understand what is involved and what some of it's capabilities are.
I plan on using my current CD player as the primary source and then buying a streamer later to add more flexibility.
Bazabing,
Driver suspensions tend to sag over time when placed up or down, progressively reducing output and increasing distortion.
Side-firing drivers will still offer force cancellation without sag.
If the subs are crossed with a steep (24dB per octave) filter at 100Hz or below (and don't have much harmonic distortion, not a problem for the SB23MFCL45-8) their location will not be apparent.
Using four separate sub enclosures would give you more placement options, which can reduce frequency response level variation due to room modes, which DSP alone can only correct for a single (or limited) area.
Art