Struggling with how much to budget for a new build and of course what to build. I am all about value, I don't think my front end justifies top $$ builds.
I don't have a lot of reference points - I currently have Klipsch Chorus IIs, which to me have wonderful, engaging vocals but everything else is secondary. Recently picked up Wharfdale Diamond 9.6's and they are very fine, less engaging then Klipsch but I hear more of the music from top to bottom. Finally, love my FHXLs but they don't fill the room as much.
As far as goals I am fine with fairly complex builds. Tentative budget $1000-1500 for drivers/crossover. Ideally immersive vocals, moderate but clean/tight bass, enjoyment vs analysis. Speakers will be on the short wall of an 11'x18' room, with the front a max of 36" out, main listen position is slightly off center and 13' from the front wall.
Having cycled through econowave, Pi 6 big horns, OB w/ woofer, I think I have settled on a tall floorstander format. Something like the Anthology or Elsinore almost seem to big/complex but very good. Really intrigued by 2.5-3 way like the Nomex 164 mkII, ScanSpeak Discovery 861, or Satori Rinjani (current favorite).
Gear is currently a Cambridge CXA60 or B&K 2220, building an Aleph J and Honey Badger/Wolverine so ideally could run w/ 25 watt but I can also save that for the FHXL. TD160 w/ VM540ML. Working on a TD125 w/ Tecnoarm, could buy a nicer cart.
Finally, I also have a ton of house projects on the docket, will a $1500 kit be significantly better than $1600 Wharfdale Evo 4.3s (as a new example)? Or similar used for $800-1000?
I know that's a lot but trying to provide as much relevant info as possible. With all those factors do any established builds stand out as a recommendation?
Also - if anyone has similar builds around MN/IA and would let me come for a quick listen...
Thanks for any thoughts or build recommendations!
I don't have a lot of reference points - I currently have Klipsch Chorus IIs, which to me have wonderful, engaging vocals but everything else is secondary. Recently picked up Wharfdale Diamond 9.6's and they are very fine, less engaging then Klipsch but I hear more of the music from top to bottom. Finally, love my FHXLs but they don't fill the room as much.
As far as goals I am fine with fairly complex builds. Tentative budget $1000-1500 for drivers/crossover. Ideally immersive vocals, moderate but clean/tight bass, enjoyment vs analysis. Speakers will be on the short wall of an 11'x18' room, with the front a max of 36" out, main listen position is slightly off center and 13' from the front wall.
Having cycled through econowave, Pi 6 big horns, OB w/ woofer, I think I have settled on a tall floorstander format. Something like the Anthology or Elsinore almost seem to big/complex but very good. Really intrigued by 2.5-3 way like the Nomex 164 mkII, ScanSpeak Discovery 861, or Satori Rinjani (current favorite).
Gear is currently a Cambridge CXA60 or B&K 2220, building an Aleph J and Honey Badger/Wolverine so ideally could run w/ 25 watt but I can also save that for the FHXL. TD160 w/ VM540ML. Working on a TD125 w/ Tecnoarm, could buy a nicer cart.
Finally, I also have a ton of house projects on the docket, will a $1500 kit be significantly better than $1600 Wharfdale Evo 4.3s (as a new example)? Or similar used for $800-1000?
I know that's a lot but trying to provide as much relevant info as possible. With all those factors do any established builds stand out as a recommendation?
Also - if anyone has similar builds around MN/IA and would let me come for a quick listen...
Thanks for any thoughts or build recommendations!
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iaRIVR,
Nice work with providing the layout of the room. 🙂
Since you like the FHXL, here are a couple "Full-range Assisted" aka FAST or WAW designs for your consideration:
Speaker Design Works
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ful...5-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor-197.html#post6016550
Nice work with providing the layout of the room. 🙂
Since you like the FHXL, here are a couple "Full-range Assisted" aka FAST or WAW designs for your consideration:
Speaker Design Works
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/ful...5-8-fast-waw-ref-monitor-197.html#post6016550
Thanks zman01! I had looked at those, the Halcyon in particular but also really liking the 10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor. My hesitation was actually they may be too similar to the FHXL, which is why I started looking at Anthology and Elsinore, as an opportunity to build a different type of speaker. But then they started looking big...yeesh.
I am feeling like I think I need bigger speakers than I really do. I like the review of the Fyne Audio 301 - Fyne Audio F302 review | What Hi-Fi?, and that is only a 2-way with a 6" mid/bass unit.
Edit - I see the 10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor is a dedicated woofer with mid/tweet, interesting!
I am feeling like I think I need bigger speakers than I really do. I like the review of the Fyne Audio 301 - Fyne Audio F302 review | What Hi-Fi?, and that is only a 2-way with a 6" mid/bass unit.
Edit - I see the 10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor is a dedicated woofer with mid/tweet, interesting!
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WAWs are a formst we are seeing more and more.
XOing a FR as midTweeter to dedicated bass drivers brings some significant sonic advantages.
Xs F10 project is popular, i find the Scan expensive and lacking top end, but it is very smooth (and i guess could be said to have a “vintage” top end.
The Halcyon has been getting some traction, and our own A12pw MTM WAW as well. Planet-10 A7m + A12pw ML-TL Build
A smallish, slim foorstander, but much less expensive is Tysen V2.
Go looking, you will find a growing number of examples.
dave
XOing a FR as midTweeter to dedicated bass drivers brings some significant sonic advantages.
Xs F10 project is popular, i find the Scan expensive and lacking top end, but it is very smooth (and i guess could be said to have a “vintage” top end.
The Halcyon has been getting some traction, and our own A12pw MTM WAW as well. Planet-10 A7m + A12pw ML-TL Build
A smallish, slim foorstander, but much less expensive is Tysen V2.
Go looking, you will find a growing number of examples.
dave
iaRIVR,
The Elsinores are on my build list - I have the parts, but have not started building the cabinets yet. Probably will be a project for towards the end of the year.
The Anthologys look good too.
I have built 2 FAST designs (RS225TL and another one which is my own design), in the last couple of years, and they offer more effortless bass capability vs very good single driver designs like the FHXL and the Pensil. The FHXL and Pensil designs are impressive when you consider that the total output is coming from modestly sized wide-band units, but a well designed FAST / WAW speaker with dedicated mid-bass or woofer (or multiples of those) have greater cone area, and as they say, "There is no replacement of displacement" - the larger cone area helps to move more air.
Have fun looking at the options and then building your new speaker! And keep us posted on your progress.
The Elsinores are on my build list - I have the parts, but have not started building the cabinets yet. Probably will be a project for towards the end of the year.
The Anthologys look good too.
I have built 2 FAST designs (RS225TL and another one which is my own design), in the last couple of years, and they offer more effortless bass capability vs very good single driver designs like the FHXL and the Pensil. The FHXL and Pensil designs are impressive when you consider that the total output is coming from modestly sized wide-band units, but a well designed FAST / WAW speaker with dedicated mid-bass or woofer (or multiples of those) have greater cone area, and as they say, "There is no replacement of displacement" - the larger cone area helps to move more air.
Have fun looking at the options and then building your new speaker! And keep us posted on your progress.
Do note that if you can bi-amp doing your own variation on the WAW theme becomes much simplier.
The recipe is simple. Take a really good FR driver, it doesn’t have to reach low, but needs very good midTop (in YOUR estimation), add in 1 or multiple midBass drivers, there is a significant number of candidates once you realize that all those midbasses designed to reach 3k or higher only need be considered on how well they do low (lets say 1kHz to put a figure on it). XO somewhere between 200-400 Hz or so. Keep the drivers as close together as possible. You get the seemlessness that a good FR has, with no XOs thru the most critical range. And as much bass as you can afford drivers, box volume, and where you are going to put them.
Add into this aesthetics, budget, WAF, support kit, room...
The target is to get the crossover point below the frequency equivalent to the quarter wavelength of the centre-to-centre of the drivers (imagine a sphere, not a straightedge). I was asked the question of the utility of stepping the drivers on the baffle. Given the proximity, it is moot.
This is what i am currently listening to. Mark Audio Alpair 5.2eN with woofer support from a pair of Peerless 830870 in a Woden ML-TL — another example of the genre.
The A10p is used as the midTweeter in the Halcyon, and i have imagined one in an MTM with a pair of Mar-Ken12pwT with the A10p sandwhiched between in a midTL. I did the A10 version first but only got the A7 version in an illustration. Subsitute drivers (and appropriate boxes) of your choice or follow a known recipe.
dave
The recipe is simple. Take a really good FR driver, it doesn’t have to reach low, but needs very good midTop (in YOUR estimation), add in 1 or multiple midBass drivers, there is a significant number of candidates once you realize that all those midbasses designed to reach 3k or higher only need be considered on how well they do low (lets say 1kHz to put a figure on it). XO somewhere between 200-400 Hz or so. Keep the drivers as close together as possible. You get the seemlessness that a good FR has, with no XOs thru the most critical range. And as much bass as you can afford drivers, box volume, and where you are going to put them.
Add into this aesthetics, budget, WAF, support kit, room...
The target is to get the crossover point below the frequency equivalent to the quarter wavelength of the centre-to-centre of the drivers (imagine a sphere, not a straightedge). I was asked the question of the utility of stepping the drivers on the baffle. Given the proximity, it is moot.
This is what i am currently listening to. Mark Audio Alpair 5.2eN with woofer support from a pair of Peerless 830870 in a Woden ML-TL — another example of the genre.
The A10p is used as the midTweeter in the Halcyon, and i have imagined one in an MTM with a pair of Mar-Ken12pwT with the A10p sandwhiched between in a midTL. I did the A10 version first but only got the A7 version in an illustration. Subsitute drivers (and appropriate boxes) of your choice or follow a known recipe.
dave
Hello! Sorry we were out of town on the Mississippi this weekend and trying to stay off my computer.
I do keep coming back to how good the FHXL sounds, and that is one driver putting out impressive (for the size) bass and somehow taking care of the top too. Size/WAF is not a huge deal, as long as it looks nice I can get away with big.
One consideration is how big/expensive to go, but again maybe putting too much emphasis on $$ = better.Two 12pws + two 7m is still close to 800, not far off from some of the other kits I have been looking at.
I want to build my "end game" speaker, but of course without having heard enough to know what exactly that should be. Also seems like the 'high end' speakers I have been reading reviews of are part hype and often tall towers because they ship easier.
Will keep thinking and reading! Going to post a question about a passive crossover for the 12pw + 7m combo. Thanks
I do keep coming back to how good the FHXL sounds, and that is one driver putting out impressive (for the size) bass and somehow taking care of the top too. Size/WAF is not a huge deal, as long as it looks nice I can get away with big.
One consideration is how big/expensive to go, but again maybe putting too much emphasis on $$ = better.Two 12pws + two 7m is still close to 800, not far off from some of the other kits I have been looking at.
I want to build my "end game" speaker, but of course without having heard enough to know what exactly that should be. Also seems like the 'high end' speakers I have been reading reviews of are part hype and often tall towers because they ship easier.
Will keep thinking and reading! Going to post a question about a passive crossover for the 12pw + 7m combo. Thanks
All those naked woofers make me think of damage by a cat when one jumped an inch in response to my playing Tommy Boyce & Bobby Hart 45's. I kept the fabric cover on the LWEIII's when I had a cat.
I was really happy with huge Peavey SP2-XT which I paid $600 the pair for. 2nd best speakers I've ever heard on piano CD, 2nd to the Peavey SP2 2004 spec I audited @ FarOutMusic store. I had the SP2-XT mounted high on poles since they project the highs down. Drove them with a ST70 (tubes) or a modified ST120 (for less heat). Then they were stolen, too attractive through the window I suppose. I was going to replace with ugly speakers built out of eminence Deltapro 15A and ebay RX22 horns, when I stumbled on a pair of Peavey SP2 2004 spec for $400 including poles. Not just +- 3 db 54 hz-17 khz, they have HD specified at 20 db down from 5 W from 50 hz to 10 khz. Best sounding speakers on piano I've ever heard. Took me all day to drive 410 miles to go get them, but was worth it. Took me 8 months to find a bargain that close on craigslist.
Huge & black, but at 1 W base level in my music room, only take 70 W to reproduce 72 db peaks on classical material. Just the passive crossovers for my project speaker were going to be >$200. Plus the SP2 have the woofers grilled for protection from cats & children.
Look around on ebay & craigslist. There were a pair of Klipsch Heresy last winter which have quite a reputation in Vermont for $500 the pair. Too far to drive for me. Also some reputable JBL 4227 show up sometimes, never near me unfortunately.
I was really happy with huge Peavey SP2-XT which I paid $600 the pair for. 2nd best speakers I've ever heard on piano CD, 2nd to the Peavey SP2 2004 spec I audited @ FarOutMusic store. I had the SP2-XT mounted high on poles since they project the highs down. Drove them with a ST70 (tubes) or a modified ST120 (for less heat). Then they were stolen, too attractive through the window I suppose. I was going to replace with ugly speakers built out of eminence Deltapro 15A and ebay RX22 horns, when I stumbled on a pair of Peavey SP2 2004 spec for $400 including poles. Not just +- 3 db 54 hz-17 khz, they have HD specified at 20 db down from 5 W from 50 hz to 10 khz. Best sounding speakers on piano I've ever heard. Took me all day to drive 410 miles to go get them, but was worth it. Took me 8 months to find a bargain that close on craigslist.
Huge & black, but at 1 W base level in my music room, only take 70 W to reproduce 72 db peaks on classical material. Just the passive crossovers for my project speaker were going to be >$200. Plus the SP2 have the woofers grilled for protection from cats & children.
Look around on ebay & craigslist. There were a pair of Klipsch Heresy last winter which have quite a reputation in Vermont for $500 the pair. Too far to drive for me. Also some reputable JBL 4227 show up sometimes, never near me unfortunately.
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