Hello community 🙂 This place is a gold mine, thanks all sharers !
(skip at will) First post: introducing myself
but I spend hours on the computer and want good music there!
Blank sheet, with few constraints:
There might be an obvious solution: please spell it out: I found and analyzed many nice projects but can't spot an obvious way to go.
With DIY, I hope to outperform identified commercial solutions:
dali spektor 1 / EVE audio SC203...
Thanks for reading me this far!
(skip at will) First post: introducing myself
The best system I ever heard is mine (having no friend that likes music as I do):
a Dynaudio Emit M20 stereo in a tile-floored living room with low ceiling... I come from far. 😱
Musical tastes: pop/Gregorian/classical/electro/rap... almost anything but jazz and heavy metal.
Spent hours reading much topics here and elsewhere.
Now I would gladly take straight input/answers as I progress too slow. Hence this new thread.
Current setup works great for couch-listening sessions,a Dynaudio Emit M20 stereo in a tile-floored living room with low ceiling... I come from far. 😱
Musical tastes: pop/Gregorian/classical/electro/rap... almost anything but jazz and heavy metal.
Spent hours reading much topics here and elsewhere.
Now I would gladly take straight input/answers as I progress too slow. Hence this new thread.
but I spend hours on the computer and want good music there!
Blank sheet, with few constraints:
- ~250$/€ for stereo speakers, including enclosure.
Dayton RS100 drivers? Any a better option you like. - Computer as DSP / FIR / equalizer... no xo preferably.
- ~80cm to listening point (2.6ft).
bonus if system can fill the room, but not a goal. - Full range driver
- to address phase/alignment problems
- seems better on sound per bucks ratio considering computer DSP?
- bass-ported if it's best (no objection on TL/open-baffle/horn though if it's basic plumbing/concrete/wood work)
- angled drivers towards listener
- <15cm (0.5ft.) wide enclosures, either placed on table or on the floor.
- <120cm high (4ft i.e. 35cm above desktop)
- <55cm deep if on floor (1.8 ft.)
- Sub-woofer ruled-out since I fear they grow people deaf
- Non-fatiguing sound: daylong listening
- non-pervasive looks
(I won't spend time on finishing though)
There might be an obvious solution: please spell it out: I found and analyzed many nice projects but can't spot an obvious way to go.
With DIY, I hope to outperform identified commercial solutions:
dali spektor 1 / EVE audio SC203...
Thanks for reading me this far!
My 1st choice wotld be Mark Audio Alpair 7.3/7ms or P7HD. These can be squessed into about 5 litre but get happier (and lower bass) as you move up towards the optimum 9-10 litres.
dave
dave
That 7MS could work as desktop if they can be 35cm deep (not specified). That is a 10L tuned to 55Hz (F3 of 49hz) of 15cm widex 35cm high x35cm deep with a frontal slot port at the bottom of the internal width (11.4cm) x2cm high and 18.6cm deep. Line arround the drivers with polyfill to avoid resonances trough the cone, but don't fill the cabinet. This is counting for 18mm plywood (just sand and varnish them for a fast finish).
The 7.3 will tune a little bit lower in that same cabinet, arround 45Hz and the slot port should be 15.3cm deep then. So it would be a better choice. But is that driver still availeble, as i don't see it in shops anymore?
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Pluvia7HD is nice driver.
Build in 8 litter box.(W.160*H.350*D.250mm)
7HD sound at YouTube
Enya 7HD - YouTube
Build in 8 litter box.(W.160*H.350*D.250mm)
7HD sound at YouTube
Enya 7HD - YouTube
Thanks Dave. OK, so goodbye Dayton RS100 and 2.83L ported enclosure, hello Markaudio, with 10L.
I Found your site and saw you sell e.g. mods on paper cones: I might PM you when purchasing.
If I understand MA offering properly,
Alpair 7.3 is ancestor to 7ms, and Pluvias replaced Alpairs as a whole: so from left to right, quality rises together with prices?
Hey Waxx, nice build! I had spotted it earlier indeed... and thanks for detailed specs!
My desk is much narrower than yours though: 10L is too much to fit on.
Nice build nandappe!
I've let the night pass to challenge your comments 😎
I could make the enclosure half overlap the desk like in picture.
If not heretic sound-wise. Any insight? Could we still go ported in there, or must we go complex?
This solution, together with tilted driver buys width for an Alpair 10 or a Pluvia 11 if desirable.
Pluvia 11 seems cheaper than Alpair 10? Which do you advise?
Represented bounding box is just shy of 50L internal volume, little bit less than MA's "Pensil 11" kit it seems.
Thanks 😀.
I Found your site and saw you sell e.g. mods on paper cones: I might PM you when purchasing.
If I understand MA offering properly,
Alpair 7.3 is ancestor to 7ms, and Pluvias replaced Alpairs as a whole: so from left to right, quality rises together with prices?
Hey Waxx, nice build! I had spotted it earlier indeed... and thanks for detailed specs!
My desk is much narrower than yours though: 10L is too much to fit on.
Nice build nandappe!
I've let the night pass to challenge your comments 😎
I could make the enclosure half overlap the desk like in picture.
If not heretic sound-wise. Any insight? Could we still go ported in there, or must we go complex?
This solution, together with tilted driver buys width for an Alpair 10 or a Pluvia 11 if desirable.
Pluvia 11 seems cheaper than Alpair 10? Which do you advise?
Represented bounding box is just shy of 50L internal volume, little bit less than MA's "Pensil 11" kit it seems.
Thanks 😀.
Attachments
The pencil is not a ported speaker, but a MLTL with a whole different way of working than a ported, so that volume is not transportable to a ported speaker. The 11MS need a smaller volume ported, more something like 12-16L (depending on how you tune it). And you can't brake the line with an irregular case in an TL, then the tuning won't work.
If your desk is that small, i would suggest good speaker stands. You can also make those diy (google it) or buy some. This will open up the possibilities a lot more than that very narrow space you have.
Nice catch Waxx: I did overlook the foam on Pensil pictures.
Found this thread with readily available MA drivers comparison details.
So alpair 7 is best MA for my application/budget it seems: what you said from the start, Dave.
Still, 7ms seems hard to integrate as seen here? So I am not completely sold yet.
Thanks for the suggestion on using speaker stands Waxx.
Confronting those constraints:
- speakers >10L so they sound good but too big for my desk
- Enclosure below eyesight but drivers not far from ears
I ponder folding a Tabaq like attached picture.
Tabaq can work with Alpair 7 it seems
I'll leave some time see if a better idea comes up.
If not, I'll jump to Tabac thread and ask what Bjohannesen thinks of my fold.
Attachments
The 11ms and 7ms drivers will both work fine in a 9L cabinet so take your pick. Planet10 sometimes shows his 9L CGR box for the pluvia 11 which will work just as fine for the above 2 drivers if correctly tuned for them.
Pluvias not replacing Alpairs, everything just pushing upstream as the Pluvias benefit from what has been learned thru the evolution of the Alpairs.
Price is not always an indicator, there are some MA products that do not stand out.
dave
Given that many of these drivers slot into the same volume, the enclosures can be repurposed for many drivers.
The A7ms/11ms. A7/7.3, CHx-70, EL70, P7x, FF125wk, probably A10s, more can be fitted into this enclosure with appropriate tunign and detail changes.
Most of those drivers are small enuff that the baffle can be any of the 5 faces that do not have the vent.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
dave
If you can take a slightly larger box, try W5-2143 vented and tuned to 55Hz. Use a 1mH and 4.7ohm to 6.8ohm (adjust to taste) BSC circuit. I have an XKi design for this but an open face BR works well too.
This driver has it all: good 90dB sensitivity, deep punchy bass, nice highs, good tonal balance with relatively flat frequency response. Super enjoyable to listen to with no fatigue. Great looking and well built with cast aluminum frame and nice phase plug. And the price is right.
For smaller 3.5in driver, the Visaton B80 is superb. Like most 3.5in drivers, not much bass but the midrange and highs are super.
I have had some luck getting bass down to 55Hz with 3.5in drivers in a DCR but keep SPLs below 75dB unless you can tolerate distortion from too much cone movement.
This driver has it all: good 90dB sensitivity, deep punchy bass, nice highs, good tonal balance with relatively flat frequency response. Super enjoyable to listen to with no fatigue. Great looking and well built with cast aluminum frame and nice phase plug. And the price is right.
For smaller 3.5in driver, the Visaton B80 is superb. Like most 3.5in drivers, not much bass but the midrange and highs are super.
I have had some luck getting bass down to 55Hz with 3.5in drivers in a DCR but keep SPLs below 75dB unless you can tolerate distortion from too much cone movement.
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Thanks ssportclay, planet and xrk971,
W5-2143 seems like a -very- nice contender on the paper.😀
Yet based on a spreadsheet from Linkwitz, Xmax seems to limit this driver to 90dB at 100Hz, with usual roll-off below.
Which we could guess amidst (flattering) accidents in that region of TangBand's frequency response? Or do I miss something?😕
My understanding with Xmax being the limit, is that -in theory at least- even the port wouldn't cycle round, but rather distorted.
What is your practical listening experience with that speaker please xrk971?
Meanwhile I try and learn what I can about speakers types,
and define what direction is preferable in my case.
W5-2143 seems like a -very- nice contender on the paper.😀
Yet based on a spreadsheet from Linkwitz, Xmax seems to limit this driver to 90dB at 100Hz, with usual roll-off below.
Which we could guess amidst (flattering) accidents in that region of TangBand's frequency response? Or do I miss something?😕
My understanding with Xmax being the limit, is that -in theory at least- even the port wouldn't cycle round, but rather distorted.
What is your practical listening experience with that speaker please xrk971?
Meanwhile I try and learn what I can about speakers types,
and define what direction is preferable in my case.
W5 is very good for a waw, but on it's own it does not give a lot of bass that is true. It can go a little lower in a TL, but it won't be much lower i think. Therefor Mark Audio drivers are often way better on that. And so are some Fostex drivers (because they are higher efficient) and some bigger or more expensive TB drivers like the W8-1808.
But it is a great sounding driver, when it got bass support of a (sub)woofer in a WAW config.
But it is a great sounding driver, when it got bass support of a (sub)woofer in a WAW config.
My experience with W5-2143 in a ported XKi cabinet is that the bass beats any other full range driver I have used. No subwoofer needed. Here it is used in my daughter’s dance studio for hip hop music.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/268524-xki-xs-ab-initio-karlson-6th-bandpass-107.htm
So IMO, there is no bass lacking in W5-2143. If using a FAST/WAW there is no need to go with a 5in driver. Use ScanSpeak 10F or Visaton B80 and a woofer below 300Hz.
But the need for a single driver in a compact box with bass, I think the W5 is tough to beat. It’s priced well and well built with cast aluminum.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/268524-xki-xs-ab-initio-karlson-6th-bandpass-107.htm
So IMO, there is no bass lacking in W5-2143. If using a FAST/WAW there is no need to go with a 5in driver. Use ScanSpeak 10F or Visaton B80 and a woofer below 300Hz.
But the need for a single driver in a compact box with bass, I think the W5 is tough to beat. It’s priced well and well built with cast aluminum.
I would love a waw solution, on paper.
Tysen for instance fits my 15cm wide requirement.
And it places woofer near wideband as it should be.
I don't know woofers at all, yet a match for that w5 wideband,
is above 100€/unit I dare say? That's without xo.
So no love I guess: budget would be going through the roof
Ceilings really are a nightmare, in audio 😀
My FAST/WAW design with RS225-8 woofer can work with a variety of full range drivers. XO is passive and can be done for about $80 for both channels (use iron core plates 4mH inductor and save $ and deeper bass). RS225-8 is $60ea. Sometimes on sale $50 ea. This woofer is special wide band and allows use of 1st order XO. I have not found an equivalent at any price or any other brand.
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
I actually prefer a higher XO at 900Hz. This lets the woofer provie a lot of the visceral punch.
My vote would go to scanspeak 10F fullrange. Very nice neutral sound signature, not fatiguing and very good detail.
i have not heard every fullranges out there, but in my opinion they are very good value. They sound very high fidelity to me.
i have not heard every fullranges out there, but in my opinion they are very good value. They sound very high fidelity to me.
I've only heard the alpair 7ms and they sound really good to me. The only issue I have is spl which is an obvious limitation of small drivers. Crossing over to my sub helps a lot though and they can get loud enough as long as you're not partying. If the songs you listen to don't have deep bass lines then I don't think this will be an issue anyway (also depends on your listening volume obviously). I don't have them in small enclosures though, and the speakers are about 2m from my listening position. I was supposed to have done and I bought some plans from planet10, but I had an issue with the wood I ordered not arriving for months so never got it done.
I wouldn't listen to those comments about them sounding like toys as they certainly don't. There are some people who prefer the old alpair 7s which I believe are very similar to the new pluvia 7hd and cost a little less than the 7ms so I think they'd be worth a go too. The 7ms definitely aren't fatiguing as they are rolled off a bit in the treble so they do give you that all day listening in my opinion.
I wouldn't listen to those comments about them sounding like toys as they certainly don't. There are some people who prefer the old alpair 7s which I believe are very similar to the new pluvia 7hd and cost a little less than the 7ms so I think they'd be worth a go too. The 7ms definitely aren't fatiguing as they are rolled off a bit in the treble so they do give you that all day listening in my opinion.