Has anyone bought any of these?
I have been trying to get some measured data on these Falcon drivers for many weeks now, without success. Multiple emails requesting information have been met with vague, terse and evasive responses from the owner Jerry Bloomfield. His replies have lead me to believe that these drivers have never actually been measured under any kind of realistic conditions (eg. IEC baffle), not even in prototype form.
Having used the KEF originals many years (decades) ago, I am genuinely interested in how the new versions perform, but the lack of cooperation from Falcon has been extraordinary.
I have been trying to get some measured data on these Falcon drivers for many weeks now, without success. Multiple emails requesting information have been met with vague, terse and evasive responses from the owner Jerry Bloomfield. His replies have lead me to believe that these drivers have never actually been measured under any kind of realistic conditions (eg. IEC baffle), not even in prototype form.
Having used the KEF originals many years (decades) ago, I am genuinely interested in how the new versions perform, but the lack of cooperation from Falcon has been extraordinary.
These are replacement standard range drivers for 50 year old designs. They are not going to measure well by modern standards and certainly not against modern prestige range drivers of a similar price. This doesn't make them bad drivers but drivers that are intended to be used in 50 year old speakers and not modern ones. Falcon themselves don't use them in their own speaker designs except for the retro LS3/5A where they are used for reasons of authenticity.
Keeping the measurements private looks rather wise to me given they are likely to hurt rather than help the marketing. I suspect it is what I would opt to do if I was in Jerry's position. If you were a company looking to use the drivers for, say, an IMF transmission line retro speaker in the manner of the LS3/5A I am pretty confident Jerry would supply you with all the measurements you want. He is running a business.
Keeping the measurements private looks rather wise to me given they are likely to hurt rather than help the marketing. I suspect it is what I would opt to do if I was in Jerry's position. If you were a company looking to use the drivers for, say, an IMF transmission line retro speaker in the manner of the LS3/5A I am pretty confident Jerry would supply you with all the measurements you want. He is running a business.
Perhaps it is better that there aren't any graphs published for people might get wrong ideas about driver performance. This does not mean there is something wrong with these, it is just a strategic decision, imo. For those audiophiles in need to find spare parts, it's a wonderful solution.
A quote from Falcon Acoustics website:
"Falcon B110, KEF B110 replacement. The only genuine Bextrene-cone B110. MATCHED PAIRS. Used in the Classic Original LS3/5a.
Designed by Malcolm Jones, the original KEF B110 designer. Each unit is hand built and tested in Great Britain, and is post-Production matched by chamber-test frequency response curve test sequences."
edit: Acoustic Elegance doesn't publish measurements either
A quote from Falcon Acoustics website:
"Falcon B110, KEF B110 replacement. The only genuine Bextrene-cone B110. MATCHED PAIRS. Used in the Classic Original LS3/5a.
Designed by Malcolm Jones, the original KEF B110 designer. Each unit is hand built and tested in Great Britain, and is post-Production matched by chamber-test frequency response curve test sequences."
edit: Acoustic Elegance doesn't publish measurements either
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The production process of the original B110 lead to fairly wide variations in parameters. Perhaps Falcon's 'exact' replacement drivers have similar and unreported variations? Perhaps the best measuring T27 and B110 drivers are selected for use in the Falcon LS3/5a, leaving the remainder available to the diy user?
Note the uses of the word 'perhaps', it's all pure conjecture on my part! 😉
Since it was Malcolm Jones who developed the original drivers, I'd be loath to challenge the absolute legitimacy of his 'exact' replacements.
The fact that Falcon Acoustics has obtained the BBC licence to manufacture the LS3/5a also speaks volumes as to the legitimacy of the Falcon drivers.
A quick trawl of the interweb reveals thumbs ups from several satisfied Falcon users, but I haven't come across anyone who has measured and compared the T/S parameters to those of the originals.
Perhaps Falcon simply want to preserve the mystery of these classic drivers! 😎
Note the uses of the word 'perhaps', it's all pure conjecture on my part! 😉
Since it was Malcolm Jones who developed the original drivers, I'd be loath to challenge the absolute legitimacy of his 'exact' replacements.
The fact that Falcon Acoustics has obtained the BBC licence to manufacture the LS3/5a also speaks volumes as to the legitimacy of the Falcon drivers.
A quick trawl of the interweb reveals thumbs ups from several satisfied Falcon users, but I haven't come across anyone who has measured and compared the T/S parameters to those of the originals.
Perhaps Falcon simply want to preserve the mystery of these classic drivers! 😎
I would imagine Falcon have the frequency responses of their drivers.
I believe you can have a matched pair of B110s which implies measurements to me. Maybe they are sitting on a gold mine there and don't want to share responses and characteristics in case somebody makes clone of their drivers.
Fundamentally the frequency response of the B110 and how it changed with batches of bextrene is part of KEF history. Apparently not all B110's made it past the quality inspection department and KEF had to re align the original Xover design to bring it more inline with the then current production tolerances of then current deliveries of B110's.
The above is an over simplification on my part and may not be near to the real truth. If you are a KEF aficionado I am sure you know the whole story and historical timeline.
If you purchased new drivers and where not happy maybe you take recourse to the trade descriptions act if you find they are not within spec and simply return them.
Who has the original frequency responses ?
Are there enough magazine reviews of adequate quality to show the responses not forgetting the differing flavours of B110B and 15ohm, 11 ohm and even later Celestion made for KEF 11ohms which were the final batch before production ceased with Falcon resurrected the design and started manufacturing LS3/5a again several years later.
Are you simply looking for replacements for your old drivers or do you want to replace old drivers or build a new design ?
Looking on the Falcon website just now it seems they have a new design using what looks like the B139 driver in a new transmission line becoming available next March/April.
I believe you can have a matched pair of B110s which implies measurements to me. Maybe they are sitting on a gold mine there and don't want to share responses and characteristics in case somebody makes clone of their drivers.
Fundamentally the frequency response of the B110 and how it changed with batches of bextrene is part of KEF history. Apparently not all B110's made it past the quality inspection department and KEF had to re align the original Xover design to bring it more inline with the then current production tolerances of then current deliveries of B110's.
The above is an over simplification on my part and may not be near to the real truth. If you are a KEF aficionado I am sure you know the whole story and historical timeline.
If you purchased new drivers and where not happy maybe you take recourse to the trade descriptions act if you find they are not within spec and simply return them.
Who has the original frequency responses ?
Are there enough magazine reviews of adequate quality to show the responses not forgetting the differing flavours of B110B and 15ohm, 11 ohm and even later Celestion made for KEF 11ohms which were the final batch before production ceased with Falcon resurrected the design and started manufacturing LS3/5a again several years later.
Are you simply looking for replacements for your old drivers or do you want to replace old drivers or build a new design ?
Looking on the Falcon website just now it seems they have a new design using what looks like the B139 driver in a new transmission line becoming available next March/April.
What Andy said.
I sold a whole lot of these drivers. I am fond of them. The olny thing i would use them for are bass helpers.
Few have come back to me. I have 16 B200 SP1014, i am thinking about what to do with. Any T27s got sold off.
dave
The B139 seems to be reasonably priced given what used ones sell for.
It is the one i would be interested in. Scott and i did some varaitions on a modern TL for them.
Transmission Line Speakers
Do you have a lonk to any info on Jerry’s TL. We’ll be sure to reverse engineer the bass loading.
dave
It is the one i would be interested in. Scott and i did some varaitions on a modern TL for them.
Transmission Line Speakers
Do you have a lonk to any info on Jerry’s TL. We’ll be sure to reverse engineer the bass loading.
dave
If they are designed to match the original B110, T27 and B139, then I would use the original KEF datasheets for specs. Perhaps Jerry isn't making this suggestion due to intellectual property rights.
OTOH, I understand the B139 is an improved version with larger excursion and higher power handling, which could alter its characteristics a bit.
OTOH, I understand the B139 is an improved version with larger excursion and higher power handling, which could alter its characteristics a bit.
I saw an on-axis measurement of a B110 (SP1057 iirc) somewhere online and it looked very good, with only a slight peak at the highest frequencies.
Yes, of course, the BBC is a thoroughly decent, honourable institution that can be trusted completely. 🙂
That's the one.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if the falcon B110 measured worse. The Stereophile measurements of the falcon ls3/5a don't look great compared to some I've seen of the original version.
I built two sets of speakers using the original KEF B139/B110/T27 back in the 80s. The first was a passive transmission line magazine design, and the second was sealed but fully active. Both sounded very good, but I agree that the driver specs are not great by modern standards.
Falcon do give TS parameters on their site for the new Falcon versions, but it is obvious that they have just been copied and pasted from the old KEF datasheets (which I have). When pressed, Jerry told me that they measure each driver during production in a 'test jig' and the resulting response is checked against a reference unit. He said that the responses would not be suitable to design with, so I suspect they are probably small open baffles.
If they were producing the drivers solely for use in their own speakers, then it would be understandable to not publish any data. But that is not the case. They are selling the drivers to the general public for use in third party designs, so they should provide data. Imagine if Scanspeak refused to provide full datasheets for their drivers, they would be a laughing stock (and quickly go bust!)
Falcon do give TS parameters on their site for the new Falcon versions, but it is obvious that they have just been copied and pasted from the old KEF datasheets (which I have). When pressed, Jerry told me that they measure each driver during production in a 'test jig' and the resulting response is checked against a reference unit. He said that the responses would not be suitable to design with, so I suspect they are probably small open baffles.
If they were producing the drivers solely for use in their own speakers, then it would be understandable to not publish any data. But that is not the case. They are selling the drivers to the general public for use in third party designs, so they should provide data. Imagine if Scanspeak refused to provide full datasheets for their drivers, they would be a laughing stock (and quickly go bust!)
They are selling replacement drivers not drivers for modern 3rd party designs. For example, a year or two ago I bought a replacement driver to use in one of my designs because it was technically superior to what was available on the DIY market. There was no datasheet, frequency response, etc... nor did I expect one.
If Falcon did provide a datasheet and response curves then potential customers would compare them with modern drivers and buy the modern drivers. No problem since they are not aimed at this market.
The people using them as replacement drivers in old and loved speakers are unlikely to place much if any value on datasheets if it is a direct replacement. No problem.
However, the customers of expensive new retro speakers like LS3/5As believe them to be high performance (if not outright magical) speakers. Providing solid evidence to the contrary in the form of datasheets and the discussions that would surround them will create a problem. The appeal/marketing of luxury items like this requires a vacuum in terms of genuine technical evidence to be filled by positive but technically vague audiophile buzz and marketing. Much of the audiophile industry works like this and Falcon is clearly building up this side of their business. Good luck to them.
They do seem to be capitalising on their investment in re making these drivers, as one would.
The fact that they are using Italian sourced cabinets is also indicative of the market they are after.
Oh well back to the hobby, non military standard PCBs, no aerospace grade aluminium machined in a formula 1 workshop on CNC machines, and no laser interferometry for measurements.
I guess the only driver I would be interested in today would be the B139 mounted vertical in a slim cabinet IB, not reflex or TL but I guess it would be expensive on Xover L and C to get it to roll off below the 500Hz knee seen in planet10 data sheet.
Merry Christmas.
The fact that they are using Italian sourced cabinets is also indicative of the market they are after.
Oh well back to the hobby, non military standard PCBs, no aerospace grade aluminium machined in a formula 1 workshop on CNC machines, and no laser interferometry for measurements.
I guess the only driver I would be interested in today would be the B139 mounted vertical in a slim cabinet IB, not reflex or TL but I guess it would be expensive on Xover L and C to get it to roll off below the 500Hz knee seen in planet10 data sheet.
Merry Christmas.
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They can be used as replacements, but that is quite evidently not the only application. They are, or will be, selling three completely new speakers using the new drivers, which indicates they expect the drivers to be used in new designs too.
But they cannot simultaneously claim that they are exact replacements for KEF originals, and yet not provide any evidence to back it up. The notion that drivers made today will be identical to those from 50 years ago is patently absurd. You only have to look at Scanspeak's remakes of some of the Vifa Classic line, using the same tooling and same materials. They measure drastically different.