I have a new pair of Faital Pro 15pr400 4 Ohm that I bought for a different project, and am now wondering if I should sell them, or make something new.
I was interested in the idea of making a "small" open baffle with them, using minidsp for the crossover, to be played at low to mid levels.
Anyone have any suggestions for a tweeter to match with? I want to keep it relatively simple and small.
I am aware of this... but it doesn't interest me...
OBL-15
I was thinking maybe a BG Neo 3 (or 8), maybe a Aurum Cantus G3Si, maybe Heil AMT... open to ideas!
Thanks.
I was interested in the idea of making a "small" open baffle with them, using minidsp for the crossover, to be played at low to mid levels.
Anyone have any suggestions for a tweeter to match with? I want to keep it relatively simple and small.
I am aware of this... but it doesn't interest me...
OBL-15
I was thinking maybe a BG Neo 3 (or 8), maybe a Aurum Cantus G3Si, maybe Heil AMT... open to ideas!
Thanks.
You need at least a 3-way to suceed, OR go with a 3 - 4" fullranger and cross about 500 Hz.
The 15" can't play high enough to meet a tweeter cause of the dipole peak.
The 15" can't play high enough to meet a tweeter cause of the dipole peak.
A full-range on top would make for a very nice little two-way.
Popular choices include:
Scan-Speak 10F
Visaton B80
Tymphany TC9
Faital Pro 3FE22
Fountek FR88
...and more.
One of my favorites is the Dayton PS65LP. Very nice off axis response and output capabilities. A little eq on your minidsp will flatten it nicely.
Popular choices include:
Scan-Speak 10F
Visaton B80
Tymphany TC9
Faital Pro 3FE22
Fountek FR88
...and more.
One of my favorites is the Dayton PS65LP. Very nice off axis response and output capabilities. A little eq on your minidsp will flatten it nicely.
I built a small, tabletop planar OB using a 12" driver and a 3" fullranger (Vifa TG9) a couple of years ago (pic below). A 15" driver, if it has an extended HF response, could be employed in a similar way. You will need to cross over relatively low, or use a slightly larger fullranger. I would avoid anything larger than about 4"-5" as a FR.
Some info on my tabletop OB can be found in posts around this point in a very long thread on the Manzanita OB:
Fast, fun, Inexpensive OB project
I initially liked the sound, but after extended listening I realized it had some odd sonic flaws. I attributed those to the very different rear side response (relative to the front-side output) from the fullranger above about 1kHz. With a 12" woofer (it's actually a 13" woofer) I crossed over around 750Hz. If you use a 15" woofer you may want to cross over slightly lower.
One fullranger that I discovered recently and that might work in this kind of application is the Dayton DMA105. They are very affordable, too. You will need to EQ the response quite a bit (that's necessary with any small OB system).
.
Some info on my tabletop OB can be found in posts around this point in a very long thread on the Manzanita OB:
Fast, fun, Inexpensive OB project
I initially liked the sound, but after extended listening I realized it had some odd sonic flaws. I attributed those to the very different rear side response (relative to the front-side output) from the fullranger above about 1kHz. With a 12" woofer (it's actually a 13" woofer) I crossed over around 750Hz. If you use a 15" woofer you may want to cross over slightly lower.
One fullranger that I discovered recently and that might work in this kind of application is the Dayton DMA105. They are very affordable, too. You will need to EQ the response quite a bit (that's necessary with any small OB system).
.
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How large a baffle do you need to shift the peak high enough to reach territory that a tweeter with extended range could cover?
Hey I am in the same boat as you are lol! I am currently working with a solution for a pair of the amazing 15400's too. The great thing about them they have a flat response up higher than your average 15" and are very fast!
I found their speed, dynamics and efficiency pairs amazingly with ESS Heil AMT 1's. The AMT 1's have the most sizzle of anything I have heard. Like the cymbals in the song The Who - Who are you. The impact of the cymbals. No other driver I ever tried is even close to a huge AMT. The drawback is you can only get a great listening experience with the AMT's at ear listening height so that may be a deal breaker. It wasn't for me!
I first tried using many popular compression drivers with the 15400 too. Eminence TeXtreme N314X, PRV Audio D290Py-S (B&C DE250 clone) DFM-2535R00-08, on many different horns. They just didn't have enough of that open baffle ambience I wanted for this OB design.
I also tried 3, 4" Peerless TC9's in a vertical row per side with no baffle, but they just couldn't match the dynamic range the AMT's produced.
I've tried 15400's on a flat baffle, and a U frame. I found they need a bigger baffle and quite a bit of EQ to reach low enough. I am going to try a bigger H frame next to see if I can get them to play down as low as the Alpha 15's which play a lot lower on the same baffle. So to do that I have to lower the crossover point because of the H frame. Now I plan on adding 2 Faital Pro 10" 10FE200's per side in a MTM with the Heil AMT 1 and see how that slams! I am also going to try out just using 2 Heil AMT's per side (to lower the crossover frequency). Whenever they fulfill my order (they had a Covid outbreak in the warehouse.. just to let you know they are cleaning it all up. God bless these small businesses.
I found their speed, dynamics and efficiency pairs amazingly with ESS Heil AMT 1's. The AMT 1's have the most sizzle of anything I have heard. Like the cymbals in the song The Who - Who are you. The impact of the cymbals. No other driver I ever tried is even close to a huge AMT. The drawback is you can only get a great listening experience with the AMT's at ear listening height so that may be a deal breaker. It wasn't for me!
I first tried using many popular compression drivers with the 15400 too. Eminence TeXtreme N314X, PRV Audio D290Py-S (B&C DE250 clone) DFM-2535R00-08, on many different horns. They just didn't have enough of that open baffle ambience I wanted for this OB design.
I also tried 3, 4" Peerless TC9's in a vertical row per side with no baffle, but they just couldn't match the dynamic range the AMT's produced.
I've tried 15400's on a flat baffle, and a U frame. I found they need a bigger baffle and quite a bit of EQ to reach low enough. I am going to try a bigger H frame next to see if I can get them to play down as low as the Alpha 15's which play a lot lower on the same baffle. So to do that I have to lower the crossover point because of the H frame. Now I plan on adding 2 Faital Pro 10" 10FE200's per side in a MTM with the Heil AMT 1 and see how that slams! I am also going to try out just using 2 Heil AMT's per side (to lower the crossover frequency). Whenever they fulfill my order (they had a Covid outbreak in the warehouse.. just to let you know they are cleaning it all up. God bless these small businesses.
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To investigate baffle effects, try Edge, available here:
Tolvan Data
I'm afraid, though, you'll find that even a naked 15" driver will peak at a few hundred Hz. But that shouldn't deter you, given the right EQ.
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This was a design I was playing with, using a BG Neo3 (which can get down to 1K or so).
The blue area is a cylinder/tube to act as a baffle.
Overall it is about 17" wide, 21" tall, and 9" deep.
Open-Baffle-egg-Neo3-rnd-cab-flat-floor-sml — ImgBB
The blue area is a cylinder/tube to act as a baffle.
Overall it is about 17" wide, 21" tall, and 9" deep.
Open-Baffle-egg-Neo3-rnd-cab-flat-floor-sml — ImgBB
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Hey Matt,
That is really quite interesting, we seem to be on exactly the same track, except that I did go straight for the Heil Great AMT's.
For woofer/tweeter dispersion match reasons - and also because the Heils are great ;-) I use them down to 1000Hz or even 900Hz. But the Faitals could easily be used higher up and as already shown by Troels - has an excellent and flat freq.curve past 3KHz.
However I also bought another set of Heil's to run two stacked.
So I am very interested in your results and considerations!
As mentioned, the 15PR400's need a wider baffle and quite some (DSP) compensation, running a set of 4ohms, initially a set of 8ohms per side.
D'appolito... 63cm wide baffles and 18cm U profiles.
To even things out it worked well to cut off the lower unit with a 6.5mH coil.
This also adds to the Q, even though I did not want to overdo it and chose an I-core for this.
The only annoying aspect has been that both the Heil and the Faital do have a dip at the same freq. close to the crossover point. But nothing that can't be managed by a DSP.
The 8ohm units were only swapped as these went into a set of SLOB's/Ripol w. four units per ch. but that's another story.
It has been a nice and at times also frustrating and long journey...never ending story, it's an active system w. currently 10 Ch. of amplifiers
I can only second your experiences - in every aspect.
That is really quite interesting, we seem to be on exactly the same track, except that I did go straight for the Heil Great AMT's.
For woofer/tweeter dispersion match reasons - and also because the Heils are great ;-) I use them down to 1000Hz or even 900Hz. But the Faitals could easily be used higher up and as already shown by Troels - has an excellent and flat freq.curve past 3KHz.
However I also bought another set of Heil's to run two stacked.
So I am very interested in your results and considerations!
As mentioned, the 15PR400's need a wider baffle and quite some (DSP) compensation, running a set of 4ohms, initially a set of 8ohms per side.
D'appolito... 63cm wide baffles and 18cm U profiles.
To even things out it worked well to cut off the lower unit with a 6.5mH coil.
This also adds to the Q, even though I did not want to overdo it and chose an I-core for this.
The only annoying aspect has been that both the Heil and the Faital do have a dip at the same freq. close to the crossover point. But nothing that can't be managed by a DSP.
The 8ohm units were only swapped as these went into a set of SLOB's/Ripol w. four units per ch. but that's another story.
It has been a nice and at times also frustrating and long journey...never ending story, it's an active system w. currently 10 Ch. of amplifiers
I can only second your experiences - in every aspect.
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I was actually a bit surprised at Troels use of the 15/400 driver. He commented on the great range of the driver and then proceeds to set it "under a bushel basket". Don't think he used it to it's full potential. Doesn't seem conducive to good bass output configured as OB. As a naked OB mid ... now you're talkin'.
I hear what your saying. The low frequency response or lack there of with a smaller baffle can be problematic with 15400. It is still an amazingly smooth low distortion high power neo driver though. With one of the lightest 15" cone at only 85.2 grams! The midrange is fantastic all the way up to 900hz virtually flat on and off axis. There are not many drivers I can find that beat those specs. I just wish it had a higher QTS.
Hey Matt,
That is really quite interesting, we seem to be on exactly the same track, except that I did go straight for the Heil Great AMT's.
For woofer/tweeter dispersion match reasons - and also because the Heils are great ;-) I use them down to 1000Hz or even 900Hz. But the Faitals could easily be used higher up and as already shown by Troels - has an excellent and flat freq.curve past 3KHz.
However I also bought another set of Heil's to run two stacked.
So I am very interested in your results and considerations!
As mentioned, the 15PR400's need a wider baffle and quite some (DSP) compensation, running a set of 4ohms, initially a set of 8ohms per side.
D'appolito... 63cm wide baffles and 18cm U profiles.
To even things out it worked well to cut off the lower unit with a 6.5mH coil.
This also adds to the Q, even though I did not want to overdo it and chose an I-core for this.
The only annoying aspect has been that both the Heil and the Faital do have a dip at the same freq. close to the crossover point. But nothing that can't be managed by a DSP.
The 8ohm units were only swapped as these went into a set of SLOB's/Ripol w. four units per ch. but that's another story.
It has been a nice and at times also frustrating and long journey...never ending story, it's an active system w. currently 10 Ch. of amplifiers
I can only second your experiences - in every aspect.
Hey buddy
!!! That is great I hope you are enjoying the speakers too. MTM wow I want to hear that and try that. The Journey is worth it my friend, to find these incredibly high efficient dynamics in this OB speaker combination is shocking, and so lifelike! It makes me wonder why I never tried it sooner. I can never listen to dome tweeters the same way again. They don't even compare. I am thinking the double AMT 1's per side will be all that is needed for the midrange and to lower the crossover down to 800hz or even lower possibly. Use carefully with high order DSP slope of course. On a side note I tried the 15400 along with an Eminence Alpha 15 stacked on the same U baffle together. The Alpha extends the lower frequency response and adds some warmth to the sound (probably 2nd order distortion) but it sounds better to my ears. It makes the bass more warm and ambient sounding it's hard to describe, but the music is just really coming through. Meanwhile the transient attack of the 15400 still shines! I must experiment with this more. I will let you know on further progress. I hope you do as well! Have a great day!
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Absolutely agree, incredible dynamics - it took me almost ½ a year to "get used to". Unlikely to ever take the journey back...
I was also considering swapping one of the Faital's for a high (or rather medium Qts) unit, or just adding one in the same baffle. I have experienced some high Q units in other systems sound rather dull, so I was hesitant to go for a high Q woofer, but did and still do, want to try out the AE 15 dipole as I am a great fan of the underhung design, but they are very rare here in EU, expensive shipping +heavily taxed. I am also considering JBL W15GTI / 2256G & 2216N.
For the Ripole/SLOB I knew Fs would drop and it did, and a lot more than anticipated, I am at 16.5Hz even without the impact on Q by the coils. Highly inefficient though. - However, now the paintings/frames on the wall are at odd angles to stop them from rattling 😎
One thing about the Heil AMT's beware of phase mismatch, some of them have the housing the wrong way round, PN magnets are thus in opposite positions to what you would expect. Phaseshift is then not aligned by just switching polarity. But don't just take my word for it, it can easily be measured 😉
Cheers!
I was also considering swapping one of the Faital's for a high (or rather medium Qts) unit, or just adding one in the same baffle. I have experienced some high Q units in other systems sound rather dull, so I was hesitant to go for a high Q woofer, but did and still do, want to try out the AE 15 dipole as I am a great fan of the underhung design, but they are very rare here in EU, expensive shipping +heavily taxed. I am also considering JBL W15GTI / 2256G & 2216N.
For the Ripole/SLOB I knew Fs would drop and it did, and a lot more than anticipated, I am at 16.5Hz even without the impact on Q by the coils. Highly inefficient though. - However, now the paintings/frames on the wall are at odd angles to stop them from rattling 😎
One thing about the Heil AMT's beware of phase mismatch, some of them have the housing the wrong way round, PN magnets are thus in opposite positions to what you would expect. Phaseshift is then not aligned by just switching polarity. But don't just take my word for it, it can easily be measured 😉
Cheers!
Thanks for all the input, but I have decided to sell my Faital Pro 15pr400 4 Ohm. Simply too many projects right now. You can find them under the swap meet. Send me a message if interested. New in box.
Hi @Norgaard I have a similar parts list to what you mentioned above 4@15PR400(8ohm)and 2@ ESS Great Heil AMT's. I would enjoy hearing what you ended up doing with yours, or if you stayed with the WTW configuration with a double stack ESS on each side.
I am currently reading and learning but am considering a 2.5way open baffle.
I am currently reading and learning but am considering a 2.5way open baffle.
I am still on the WTW of what I call OB152. I am quite happy with it, the tweeter has been moved back to have the front most edge flush to the baffle front - as the vertical dispersion on these are nearly non existent anyway. Part from that it has mainly been experiements with different filtering and FIR for phase linearization - and later different IIR filters (prompted by the use of miniDSP SHD over 2x4HD)
Meanwhile a German friend also build a set.
The plan to build a bigger setup is still alive, project name OBX & OBZ, where X and Z refers to the baffle design, where the Z is a dedicated subwoofer using a 4x 21" long throw units. The main goal of that update is trying to improve the directivity Not an easy task 😅 - think LX521.4 (which I also have, x2).
The OB152 performs well down to 28-32Hz. Just make sure you do not sit in a null.
I recommend AMROC for checking up on the room modes and avoiding the worst pitfalls in positioning
I did get to try out a set of AE15 dipoles. They surely are nice looking - and sweet sounding units, and they do go lower than the 15PR400, not least because of the higher Q. The drawbacks were just to big and they were outperformed on all other parameters, so I sold them on.
The 2216Nd's (4) also did not quite have the attack and snap of the Faital's* which was a (big) surprise, but I really love them - and they are now moved on to another project with Altec MR94 / 288-8K.
*(which might be over the top, but I haven't tired of that yet)