I am hoping to get some advice from the community! As I am very new to horns, PA speakers and high-efficiency designs.
I was just about to embark on building the V2. of Troels "The loudspeaker". I do think the cross-overs are expensive when they're given circa 40-70% of the build budget (depending on the level you buy), but I had come to accept that they're required for this level of speaker and Troels has released ton's of great content for the community.
However, recently I have read some comments from builders that the horn maybe a bit harsh, which isn't what I've read elsewhere around the 18sound nsd1095n. I wonder if that's to do with the 1300khz cross-over.
So I started to consider another avenue, which was to use more premium drivers (spending budget from Troels X-over, elsewhere) and go active initially, whilst getting to a passive X-Over later.
Would you guys recommend to build the Troels Loudspeaker 2 with the following:
18" BMS18N862
10" 10NMBA520
CD - NSD1095N + XT1086
Viawave GRT-145-4
associated cross-over (cheapest version - 1800 eur (no drivers))
or build:
18" BMS18N862
Acoustic Elegance 10" or 12" woofer
CD Radian 950 Be PB + Unsure about horn
Viawave GRT-145-4
In a similar cabinet approach to what Troels has built (inspired by the old JBL speakers) and start active with an aim to get to passive eventually.
I really like the spec on the BMS 18" MMS is very low and the motor is strong and I'd like to have that as the foundation of any speaker I build.
Thanks for any thoughts in advance.
I was just about to embark on building the V2. of Troels "The loudspeaker". I do think the cross-overs are expensive when they're given circa 40-70% of the build budget (depending on the level you buy), but I had come to accept that they're required for this level of speaker and Troels has released ton's of great content for the community.
However, recently I have read some comments from builders that the horn maybe a bit harsh, which isn't what I've read elsewhere around the 18sound nsd1095n. I wonder if that's to do with the 1300khz cross-over.
So I started to consider another avenue, which was to use more premium drivers (spending budget from Troels X-over, elsewhere) and go active initially, whilst getting to a passive X-Over later.
Would you guys recommend to build the Troels Loudspeaker 2 with the following:
18" BMS18N862
10" 10NMBA520
CD - NSD1095N + XT1086
Viawave GRT-145-4
associated cross-over (cheapest version - 1800 eur (no drivers))
or build:
18" BMS18N862
Acoustic Elegance 10" or 12" woofer
CD Radian 950 Be PB + Unsure about horn
Viawave GRT-145-4
In a similar cabinet approach to what Troels has built (inspired by the old JBL speakers) and start active with an aim to get to passive eventually.
I really like the spec on the BMS 18" MMS is very low and the motor is strong and I'd like to have that as the foundation of any speaker I build.
Thanks for any thoughts in advance.
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The first option without the Viawave GRT-145-4, I don't see the point of it, in the NSD1095N you have a compression driver that is pistonic out to 20kHz and smooth response, excellent decay characteristics. I'm not sure what the XT108 waveguide is but the Eighteen Sound - Professional loudspeakers would be a good choice.
The second option seems to be a very weird selection of components. The AE mid-bass perhaps is excellent but there are reports of quality control and supply issues. The Radian driver is a high end large format compression driver the type you would use if you wanted to cross low in frequency and also want to run >11 kHz where breakup modes would be present from a Ti diaphragm.
Prices for the crossover components seem excessive, I have a whole rack of amps and a DSP for less than that. I would always go active unless there was a specific reason not to. For home use itmight be worth padding down the compression driver though to improve SNR. Troels uses hypex plate amps on some of his projects which could be a nice option to avoid having an amp rack.
The second option seems to be a very weird selection of components. The AE mid-bass perhaps is excellent but there are reports of quality control and supply issues. The Radian driver is a high end large format compression driver the type you would use if you wanted to cross low in frequency and also want to run >11 kHz where breakup modes would be present from a Ti diaphragm.
Prices for the crossover components seem excessive, I have a whole rack of amps and a DSP for less than that. I would always go active unless there was a specific reason not to. For home use itmight be worth padding down the compression driver though to improve SNR. Troels uses hypex plate amps on some of his projects which could be a nice option to avoid having an amp rack.
Thanks Kipman, for taking the time to reply. I have read quite a few of your posts recently and they've been great to gain a better understanding of PA drivers etc.
I would like to go passive in the long-term, as I am looking to avoid the whole rack of amps and DSP! Looking for a simple reference system, as I spend most of my time playing with digital line-level projects (which are often two-channel too).
Thats not the first time I have read that the super tweeter doesn't feel necessary in Troels design and the CD would play to 20khz with no issues, as you said. Do you think it was added to add something to the subjective presentation?
What would make the second option a weird driver set? The Tweeter on top? I know the radian is quoted to work from 500hz, but have seen that subjectively its better at 800hz+.
I was thinking 18"BMS to 200hz, 12"AE to 1-1.2KHZ, Radian to 9-11khz and then Ribbon to pick up here.
I would like to go passive in the long-term, as I am looking to avoid the whole rack of amps and DSP! Looking for a simple reference system, as I spend most of my time playing with digital line-level projects (which are often two-channel too).
Thats not the first time I have read that the super tweeter doesn't feel necessary in Troels design and the CD would play to 20khz with no issues, as you said. Do you think it was added to add something to the subjective presentation?
What would make the second option a weird driver set? The Tweeter on top? I know the radian is quoted to work from 500hz, but have seen that subjectively its better at 800hz+.
I was thinking 18"BMS to 200hz, 12"AE to 1-1.2KHZ, Radian to 9-11khz and then Ribbon to pick up here.
Maybe this is simply a typo, XT1086?
I'd be slower to condemn the driver, especially given kipman's comments. There is also the horn, including how it matches to the driver, although I expect Troels has already considered the matching part.
The way it is measured, equalised and crossed can also make an otherwise good combination sound harsh.
Here is a comparison of aluminum and Be 3" diaphragms from Radian, the Be only has advantages at the end of the top octave:
The 745NEOBe Compression Driver from Radian Audio | audioXpress
for a 4" diaphragm this will be a bit lower in frequency but still not at 11kHz so there does not seem to be a point in using the more expensive material. No personal experience of these drivers, too expensive! I design everything from measurements and simulations, ears are untrustworthy for small differences.
I notice the super tweeter is wired to a level control to add ambience to recordings? (splash a load of extra HF around the room RLA style) not 'accurate' but works on the right material (disco). You could always fit it and see if you like it. Personally I just have my laptop connected to my DSP via wifi with a 31 band EQ in the signal flow for such online adjustments. However obviously the speaker is retaining its normal polar response even if I bring up the treble so an additional tweeter/array has a different effect due to the change in balance between direct and reflected sound.
The 745NEOBe Compression Driver from Radian Audio | audioXpress
for a 4" diaphragm this will be a bit lower in frequency but still not at 11kHz so there does not seem to be a point in using the more expensive material. No personal experience of these drivers, too expensive! I design everything from measurements and simulations, ears are untrustworthy for small differences.
I notice the super tweeter is wired to a level control to add ambience to recordings? (splash a load of extra HF around the room RLA style) not 'accurate' but works on the right material (disco). You could always fit it and see if you like it. Personally I just have my laptop connected to my DSP via wifi with a 31 band EQ in the signal flow for such online adjustments. However obviously the speaker is retaining its normal polar response even if I bring up the treble so an additional tweeter/array has a different effect due to the change in balance between direct and reflected sound.
Hi AllenB, you are correct a typo, fixed!
You are correct, 18sounds have designed the XT1086 in mind for the CD. Starting to wonder if its best to demo them off in a prototype build.
IMO, active crossovers and DSP can do things that nothing else can. The direct connection between amplifiers and speakers is really worthwhile IMO.
The next best would be DSP and a passive crossover. Use the passive crossover to integrate the drivers, and then use some FIR-based DSP to un-wrap the phase response and apply EQ as needed.
I took that approach recently with a pair of Faital 10HX230 and the results were very very good.
An approach for you might be to use something like a Powersoft T304 to run the show. That'd let you use an active crossover between the 18" and 10" drivers, saving a chunk of the passive crossovers, and you'd get FIR processing among other things. IMO, that would be a world-class reference system. Since you'd have EQ available, you could boost the ~17kHz dip on the 1" driver and skip the super-tweeter completely.
I can't say what the pricing is like on the Powersoft amps, but you can get them for considerably less than the RRP.
Chris
The next best would be DSP and a passive crossover. Use the passive crossover to integrate the drivers, and then use some FIR-based DSP to un-wrap the phase response and apply EQ as needed.
I took that approach recently with a pair of Faital 10HX230 and the results were very very good.
An approach for you might be to use something like a Powersoft T304 to run the show. That'd let you use an active crossover between the 18" and 10" drivers, saving a chunk of the passive crossovers, and you'd get FIR processing among other things. IMO, that would be a world-class reference system. Since you'd have EQ available, you could boost the ~17kHz dip on the 1" driver and skip the super-tweeter completely.
I can't say what the pricing is like on the Powersoft amps, but you can get them for considerably less than the RRP.
Chris
Thanks Kipman, the audioxpress article makes good reading. The reason, I was looking at the BE version was due to a pair available at a rather discounted rate! Not far off the Aluminimum price.
I hadn't noticed it was on a level control, I think you are may well be right and its there to add ambience.
Out of interest, what DSP and amps are using? Could be a good option for me to do some testing of drivers.
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Thanks Chris, I have to agree with you on active. Given me much to think about.
I actually use Acourate on all my speakers to un-wrap the phase response and do any final EQ. To date, I have only done that completely on passive speakers. I haven't heard of Powersoft. I will check them out!
When you are referring to a world class system, I assume you are talking around the 18 sounds combo as you mentioned a 1" driver.
IMO Troels passive crossovers are dirt expensive. Sometimes he uses Hypex Fusionamp for a hybrid active-passive design but I think it would be much better if the whole speaker would be active. Fusionamps now available in 3-way configuration and a good 1" CD don't need a super tweeter to go up to the human hearing limit.
Of course, if someone simply want to build an existing (passive) design, the options (and possibilities) are limited.
Of course, if someone simply want to build an existing (passive) design, the options (and possibilities) are limited.
Attached is a pic of my racks at the moment, its an ever rotating cast. 5 channels of amplification/DSP in use.
USB->SPDIF (optical) -> Symetrix DigIO -> Symetrix 8x8 DSP ->
CTS4200 (tops) -> 15" midbass -> passive xo -> mids + 1.75" comp
P7000s -> single quad 15" sub
normally I would be running 4 ported 15" subs but they got stuck in lockdown. I also have another P7000s I add in if needing to play loud. The 8x8 DSP has an noisy 40mm fan so I modified it for silent operating by replacing the top cover with perforated steel and fitting a quiet fan and have side air flow through my rack. There are definitely easier ways of doing this but I'm cheap and enjoy fiddling. Spending 1800 euro on a Powersoft amp (or 2) is a much better idea than on passive components and would be able to do all this in a few rack units.
*PA amps are much better value than Hi-Fi amps the hard part is finding out if they have a noisy fan or not, the ones pictured do not even spin their fans at low load, I have been compiling a list of quiet models in the Quiet PA amps thread.
USB->SPDIF (optical) -> Symetrix DigIO -> Symetrix 8x8 DSP ->
CTS4200 (tops) -> 15" midbass -> passive xo -> mids + 1.75" comp
P7000s -> single quad 15" sub
normally I would be running 4 ported 15" subs but they got stuck in lockdown. I also have another P7000s I add in if needing to play loud. The 8x8 DSP has an noisy 40mm fan so I modified it for silent operating by replacing the top cover with perforated steel and fitting a quiet fan and have side air flow through my rack. There are definitely easier ways of doing this but I'm cheap and enjoy fiddling. Spending 1800 euro on a Powersoft amp (or 2) is a much better idea than on passive components and would be able to do all this in a few rack units.
*PA amps are much better value than Hi-Fi amps the hard part is finding out if they have a noisy fan or not, the ones pictured do not even spin their fans at low load, I have been compiling a list of quiet models in the Quiet PA amps thread.
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Thats not too many boxes at all! Look good and that's exactly the type of system I am trying to shift too, maybe minus the 4 extra 15" woofers. Less WAF here 🙂
I will check out the Quiet PA amp thread, not looked into PA amps much.
I am certainly now leaning towards the active route. Being able to spend the "x-over" money on either exotic drivers (I think that's better than on caps) or DSP makes more sense and gives me more options in the future. I will sleep on it and maybe make a new thread for some help on the cabinets - if I go in that direction.
If you've already got some good DSP, then the Powersoft amps might not be so necessary.
The world-class system would be a T304 running the DSP and active crossover between the 18"s and mid-high section of The Loudspeaker.
Chris