I listen to a variety of devices using diffferent DACs (including a NOS stand alone DAC) that will most likely all measure differently.
I voted "not sure" as they sound so alike to me that I probably wouldn't be able do distinguish them in a blind test.
I find switching between speakers or headphones has very audible effects, the rest seems to pale in comparison, maybe even to the point of being insignificant.
If the measurements are thorough enough then two DACS that measure similarly will sound very similar. With the caveat that the measurements one sees on spec sheets are usually too limited to give a full enough picture; some reviewers/testers go much more into detail than the manufacturers themselves provide.
But above a certain point in high quality, most people are unable to distinguish differences anyway - i.e. improved measurements mean increasingly less in our ability to hear them. The exact point of that is debatable, and argued over. But IMO most good-measuring DACs largely achieve it these days - at least to a degree that any downstream power-amplifiers and speakers or headphones will typically have 'magnitudes' more effect on the sound than even a good inexpensive DAC.
However, perception is a different beast. Listeners usually believe themselves to be objective, but this is typically far from the truth. To a degree, people tend to hear e.g. what they want or expect to hear; this is well understood, proven and normal human psychology. Such things as aesthetics, brand, price, popularity etc will very genuinly make a different DAC 'sound' different to most listeners because it is actually their perception that is different.
But above a certain point in high quality, most people are unable to distinguish differences anyway - i.e. improved measurements mean increasingly less in our ability to hear them. The exact point of that is debatable, and argued over. But IMO most good-measuring DACs largely achieve it these days - at least to a degree that any downstream power-amplifiers and speakers or headphones will typically have 'magnitudes' more effect on the sound than even a good inexpensive DAC.
However, perception is a different beast. Listeners usually believe themselves to be objective, but this is typically far from the truth. To a degree, people tend to hear e.g. what they want or expect to hear; this is well understood, proven and normal human psychology. Such things as aesthetics, brand, price, popularity etc will very genuinly make a different DAC 'sound' different to most listeners because it is actually their perception that is different.
I find switching between speakers or headphones has very audible effects, the rest seems to pale in comparison, maybe even to the point of being insignificant.
Jitter,
That goes without saying
Jitter,
That goes without saying
That applies just as much to people who expect to hear no difference between dacs.
Exactly. Speakers and headphones can measure very different and can have very different sounds as a result. DACs measure very similar (as you would expect when you stop to think about it) and therefore would you expect to hear a difference between them?
A comment on hearing differences between dacs: having a good treated room, good electrostatic speakers, planar headphones, good amplifiers, etc., can make it possible to hear differences between dacs. Unfortunately, many people do not have rooms and or systems that make it easy to hear small differences in upstream electronics. Also, many people have never heard a dac better than a Topping.
In addition, there can be a learning factor for some people. Many people don't know what to listen for. They listen for distortion only or for something else that isn't the actual difference.
Another factor is many people are not familiar with modern audio perceptual science. A review article on Audio Scene Analysis can be found at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10963424/
In addition, there can be a learning factor for some people. Many people don't know what to listen for. They listen for distortion only or for something else that isn't the actual difference.
Another factor is many people are not familiar with modern audio perceptual science. A review article on Audio Scene Analysis can be found at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10963424/
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Maybe, maybe not.
Long ago I had a teacher who claimed he couldn't hear any difference between speakers that were connected in phase and speakers that were connected out of phase...
Your comment points to the real problem in debating the thread’s question. Without scientific listening tests to back up either side’s assertion, it quickly devolves into the tired, subjective (I hear a difference) versus objective (no you don’t) argument.
Another issue is there has been a mentality for decades now that listening is king and measurements "don't tell the whole story". People enjoy tweaking their hifi components and some dont want to admit that in terms of audibility it's pointless for DACs.
It just isn’t pointless. I have done such since the introduction of CD.
Low jitter clocks, better SPDIF receivers, better digital filters, power supplies etc. etc.
Maybe today it starts to be pointless as DAC technology and knowledge have matured.
Low jitter clocks, better SPDIF receivers, better digital filters, power supplies etc. etc.
Maybe today it starts to be pointless as DAC technology and knowledge have matured.
I have three different DACs:
Cambridge Audio DacMagic 100;
Topping D10S;
SMSL M100 MKII.
Apparently these all test well, but my ears tell me the DacMagic has no low end sub bass, and the Topping distorts under some conditions.
I only ever use the SMSL. In fact, I bought four of them for gifts and backups.
Cambridge Audio DacMagic 100;
Topping D10S;
SMSL M100 MKII.
Apparently these all test well, but my ears tell me the DacMagic has no low end sub bass, and the Topping distorts under some conditions.
I only ever use the SMSL. In fact, I bought four of them for gifts and backups.
Kevin, on target. I don't listen for artifacts, I listen to the music. Sometimes I feel the need to go through the ritual of cleaning an LP other times I don't. You may not feel like listening tonight and subjectively you feel there is something wrong with your system.
In the morning you start changing this round, fiddling with cables, placement all sorts of thing and try and listen for faults and subjectively you solved them and happiness returns.
I have two paintings of a very famous artist, my wife wanted them. If you ask me to describe them I probably cannot in anyway meaningful, besides I am en engineer not an artist, even if I walk by them many times daily it does not make an impression on me at all.
My wife often comes into my "sound" room and says, that sounds awful what is it, only to put my immediate defense system into action that she has no idea of what she is talking about. Only afterwards I start finding that it does actually sound awful and go to bed.
In the morning you start changing this round, fiddling with cables, placement all sorts of thing and try and listen for faults and subjectively you solved them and happiness returns.
I have two paintings of a very famous artist, my wife wanted them. If you ask me to describe them I probably cannot in anyway meaningful, besides I am en engineer not an artist, even if I walk by them many times daily it does not make an impression on me at all.
My wife often comes into my "sound" room and says, that sounds awful what is it, only to put my immediate defense system into action that she has no idea of what she is talking about. Only afterwards I start finding that it does actually sound awful and go to bed.
Its harder now than before. Low to mid cost consumer grade dacs have gotten a lot better. They are usually designed so that simple tweaks will not make them better.
However, so far nobody here besides me has heard MarcelvdG's RTZ dac anywhere near its full potential. I have been talking to some people working on it, and while they are making progress (and being surprised at how much better it can sound with a little work), at this point they are only scratching the surface of what is possible. Sometimes I worry that I might be giving away too many secrets, but OTOH there is little to worry about when people don't believe the secrets will make enough difference to bother trying.
You probably are right but for me the point of “finally good enough” is quite often reached with relatively low priced AKM based DACs. Anything better (from hearsay or information picked up here) is either very complicated and expensive or it is just not appealing like modular construction which I detest.
Also it depends what “weight” or importance one gives to it when technology has matured and bad sounding stuff is rarely heard anymore. Still remember the first CD I heard on a brand new Philips CD player with TDA1541A. It sounded plain bad 🙂 I recall selling a Sony CD player with also TDA1541A as it made me want to buy a record player. It motivated to start to build DACs myself and to modify CD players with complete new BB DAC sections.
Also it depends what “weight” or importance one gives to it when technology has matured and bad sounding stuff is rarely heard anymore. Still remember the first CD I heard on a brand new Philips CD player with TDA1541A. It sounded plain bad 🙂 I recall selling a Sony CD player with also TDA1541A as it made me want to buy a record player. It motivated to start to build DACs myself and to modify CD players with complete new BB DAC sections.
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Indeed. That's why the fact that I don't hear any difference doesn't mean a damn thing, which is why I voted "Not sure".
If the Topping distorts audibly that will be measurable. Likewise if the Da magic has no sub bass that would be easy to show in measurements.
I think one must define difference. It is a nebulous concept. Different how? If I say this bacon tastes different than normal, so what. Is it too smokey, not salty enough, somewhat sweet, too greasy, smell pungent, looks bland or too lightly cooked, over done, not crispy. Everyone could agree or disagree with these statements, it is well known, maybe not measured nor documented. One could specify the color or the pig it came from, but that is probably less important to the general consumer, unless he is a bacon connoisseur.
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Not necessarily. I agree on prior comments in the thread as to whether or not you are qualified to draw such conclusions and or perform technical investigations.
If the distortion is intermittent on intersample overs or for other reasons it may not show up well in steady state measurements.
Also, weak bass can be a symptom of high correlated noise making everything sound too bright. The relative perceptual effect is that bass is weak, despite possibly measuring flat in a steady state measurement.
Some reviewers do an excellent job reviewing equipment, others seem they were paid for. Some analytics only do measurements to the nth decimal place but has no idea how to describe its sound. Catch 22
You have to gain trust in the reviewer that his reviews gels with your own expectation else there is little point. You can stare yourself bling to a spec but have no idea how to covert it to your subjective expectation..
You have to gain trust in the reviewer that his reviews gels with your own expectation else there is little point. You can stare yourself bling to a spec but have no idea how to covert it to your subjective expectation..
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