Its more like this: A good sounding guitar amp with a good sounding speaker in a good sounding cab can sound great. Really inspiring to play. If you haven't experienced it first hand, you pretty much have to visit someone who has it and can demonstrate. The music stores often don't know all that much about great sound, so they can be hit or miss. If you happen to be in Auburn, California sometime you would be welcome to visit. Happy to show some things you might find of interest.
Regarding studio monitor speakers and guitar amp emulators, plugins, Line 6, Boss, H&K, etc., you can make music with them, but its not the same experience. Not even close if you have really good players who can make the analog gear sing.
Given that, why don't we hear the differences between mediocre and great gear more clearly in digital recordings? Some things about that I know, and some other parts of it I'm still working on. I do know its not cheap and or easy to reproduce audio exceptionally well. That's my two cents anyway. YMMV.
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Nobody has a reason to bow to your little tantrum.
You'll have to try harder.
Hint: entitlement and attitude won't help.
Tantrum? I am aware that the medium of text often fails to convey emotion. How do you associate a request for a recording sample as tantrum? I thought you were better than that
That's a given, but the 'horrible' part is a concern. It will be good to steer away from that while continuing with the emulations if possible. I didn't get much chance to mess with Roland/Boss units due to an interstate move and at the moment more interested in capturing samples and sequencing that in FL Studio
Anyway, I can check that for myself once I can get them hooked up. Be cool to see your demo. I have been given a good demo of the replicas and re issues that Kisteria uses
I think this is what most contributors to the thread have missed completely then writing their replies.
That in combination with the fact that OP seems to plan for 2 identical speakers judging by the rendered pictures in the first post, leads me to think that the goal is a pair of stereo speakers for the computer.
In other words, these things will be used for other stuff in addition to the guitar, perhaps playing some drum loops while playing etc. And the "sound" of the guitar will be defined by using various plugins in the recording software.
I think it is a good idea, not uncommon. The design is perhaps a bit cumbersome and could be a bit of work so I would rather suggest getting a pair of fullrange drivers to help avoid messing with crossovers and all that stuff.
Seems to me @mysteryhawk wants a bit more output and efficiency and you are thinking about making your first foray into the DIY of Audio to get a little bit better sound per $?
You guys can start making proper replies now.
It's not the same.
I once made a "rough and ready" pick-up by arranging some magnet wire in an oval loop and positioning small neodymium magnets next to the strings, and plugging the loop directly into the RCA input of the home hifi amp.
Sensitivity was low but it worked. What's more, I noticed some peculiar things to the sound. It actually had some light fuzzy distortion built-in (probably from mechanical losses), and the proximity of the magnets changed the tone of the strings. Without the magnets, the guitar had a clean predictable tone like a harp. The magnets seemed to apply a braking force, producing an evolving 'twang' or "boowwaaaannngg", which was completely missing if using a piezo sensor.
I never got round to doing more tests, but I think the coil was also loading down the strings -- the loop was quite short, and amplifier's input impedance pretty standard like 10k or something. Depending on what the pick-up plugs into: say, a JFET input with 1M ohm impedance, adjustable pot, or tube input with non-linear load, the strings will vibrate differently, and post-processing just won't close the loop with the instrument like that.
PS: I really think the pick-up could be a good play area because that's where you directly control a lot of the interesting details. Move the neo magnet 1mm up or down relative to the string, and you change the shape of the wave that is picked up.
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I cannot tell you about electric guitars, because i don't (yet) own one, but i play acoustic guitar, piano and I sing in a choir.
It's impossible to separate the "tactile" or physical feedback from what you hear and what you see and emotionally feel.
A good example is people singing under the shower: there is some noise (water) masking the "weird sounding" own voice and usually a very reverberant room, providing plenty of hall. That gives some self confidence.
Playing on different pianos (electronic ones over different speakers and headphones) makes a huge difference. For me headphones "feel" strange and do not give the spark that makes playing so enjoyable. Same with cheap and light keys. Playing on a grand piano is an incredible experience!
Also, getting positive or negative feedback from an audience directly influences the way you play or sing.
So I guess turning a (real) guitar amp up to physically feel vibrations is probably a very intense experience and hugely influences the playing.
I play the bass with attack from thumb and combo thumb and palm to time and mute the notes out. Even at less ideal late night low volumes, just a foot on the cab is awesome for a total immersion in creating and receiving the vibrations... its almost sensual
This kind of things
OK - to set it clear how to use a guitar and an amp, for all the interested not guitar players.
*) Acoustic guitar - you want it to sound natural. -> Acoustic guitar amps have tweeters.
(OK nobody wants it to sound natural, we want studio sound after compression, reverb, lot's of highs but never sharp. The guitar doesn't sound that way natural.)
*) Electrical guitar with distortion. The speaker is a BIG part of the sound!
We are used to "THE" guitar sound which developed many years ago. They simply took loud 12" speakers, put them in a box and put some amplifier in front (it wass still tube time). As they turned it louder and louder it started distorting. Bad in the early days but soon some artist detected that this distortion gave them a great push through the band - and they went for it. Distortion has some aspects to it which sound good (lower harmonics) and some aspects which bite your ear off (higher and uneven harmonics. Like H7). Guitar speakers not only form the sound, they also cut off high frequencies so you don't hear these high harmonics. (tip - when useing a modeler set a highcut at 8-12kHz to get rid of some of the digital feeling) They also cut low frequencies which are not needed for guitar.
Give it a test - get an amp sim plugin for your DAW/computer. Use a boss overdrive pedal in an clean/overdriven amp and listen to that without speaker sim. Then switch on the speaker sim (best with impulse response). And NO - I WILL NOT DO THAT FOR YOU. You need to get your own experiences as artist/player and when you are to lazy for that at least search for a youtube video.
*) Clean electrical guitar. The speaker is STILL a big part of the sound!
But you could shape it with some EQ and reverb that you can also listen to it on a linear speaker. Would not feel "right" but it would not sound horrible, Cause you don't have nasty overtones from distortion.
Real guitar speaker vs. whatever: a guitar 12" has a sensitivity of 96-100dBSpl. You often use 4 of them in a bigger speaker. They interact like crazy in a 4x12". And that's the sound and feel we want and are used to. You guickly and easy get 110dBSPL and more.
You can't reproduce that with a studio monitor. BUT - you can reproduce the RECORDED guitar sound! Cause when you set up your cab in the studio room and sit in the control room and play there - you hear exactly the same as with a good sim. But both cases are nothing close to the experience in the recording room, next to the real speaker. When you want that feel - get a real guitar speaker (1x12") and run your simulation (Line 6 in my case) through the speaker - works great.
*) Acoustic guitar - you want it to sound natural. -> Acoustic guitar amps have tweeters.
(OK nobody wants it to sound natural, we want studio sound after compression, reverb, lot's of highs but never sharp. The guitar doesn't sound that way natural.)
*) Electrical guitar with distortion. The speaker is a BIG part of the sound!
We are used to "THE" guitar sound which developed many years ago. They simply took loud 12" speakers, put them in a box and put some amplifier in front (it wass still tube time). As they turned it louder and louder it started distorting. Bad in the early days but soon some artist detected that this distortion gave them a great push through the band - and they went for it. Distortion has some aspects to it which sound good (lower harmonics) and some aspects which bite your ear off (higher and uneven harmonics. Like H7). Guitar speakers not only form the sound, they also cut off high frequencies so you don't hear these high harmonics. (tip - when useing a modeler set a highcut at 8-12kHz to get rid of some of the digital feeling) They also cut low frequencies which are not needed for guitar.
Give it a test - get an amp sim plugin for your DAW/computer. Use a boss overdrive pedal in an clean/overdriven amp and listen to that without speaker sim. Then switch on the speaker sim (best with impulse response). And NO - I WILL NOT DO THAT FOR YOU. You need to get your own experiences as artist/player and when you are to lazy for that at least search for a youtube video.
*) Clean electrical guitar. The speaker is STILL a big part of the sound!
But you could shape it with some EQ and reverb that you can also listen to it on a linear speaker. Would not feel "right" but it would not sound horrible, Cause you don't have nasty overtones from distortion.
Real guitar speaker vs. whatever: a guitar 12" has a sensitivity of 96-100dBSpl. You often use 4 of them in a bigger speaker. They interact like crazy in a 4x12". And that's the sound and feel we want and are used to. You guickly and easy get 110dBSPL and more.
You can't reproduce that with a studio monitor. BUT - you can reproduce the RECORDED guitar sound! Cause when you set up your cab in the studio room and sit in the control room and play there - you hear exactly the same as with a good sim. But both cases are nothing close to the experience in the recording room, next to the real speaker. When you want that feel - get a real guitar speaker (1x12") and run your simulation (Line 6 in my case) through the speaker - works great.
You audio techy guys are an angry lot!
If I cared for what the YouTuber thought, I would ask them. Please at least try to respect the fact that your fellas opinions were considered worthy enough to request a sample of what you guys describe as horrible sounds. We now have long-standing and highly regarded folks disgracing themselves by losing their cool over being asked to demo something that cannot be conveyed with words
My understanding of people who use "google is your friend" is that they simply do not have the aptitude to recognise that they had been considered worthy of being heard from
The end objective is supposed to be making things that bring pleasure and all this anger makes the things you make look tainted
Yes - I adressed YOU with that sentence.
... then you are not interested in the result, just in some online arguing. I'm not going that route.
I read back through this thread and fail to see a single claim or argument of any point that I could have made. My only participation has been to request a demo and ask for folks to chill
If you find my request that offensive, then maybe the mods can quote any such assertive participation in the last three pages on my part. This conversation is getting a bit weird now
If you find my request that offensive, then maybe the mods can quote any such assertive participation in the last three pages on my part. This conversation is getting a bit weird now
Vested interests, ego battles -- it's all happening man 😄
People have different hearing and some may find it hard to believe that -- despite liking high distortion at ear-bleeding levels -- a guitarist might actually have exceptonal discernment and be able to hear subtle nuances that many hifi golden ears may consider inaudible.
Hence, multiway speakers can clash and interfere with each other in ways that may be inaudible to people who -- obviously -- happen to prefer multiway speakers precisely because they are unable to hear the things that are allegedly wrong with them.
Conversely, not everyone has the same level of "automatic gain control" cushioning their eardrums, so a ripple in the frequency vs gain plot carries different significance to different listeners.
Its a well known effect if the magnets are allowed to get too close to the strings. Commercial pickups are designed to be used at a certain distance from the strings so as to minimize braking yet give a good signal.
Since you are using your computer to model the guitar sound I would recommend simply using some 10” PA loudspeakers with a lower powered 100W amplifier. This should be fine in your studio and you could take them to a show and not worry if kids sit on them. However, your budget may not afford that.
Another option is to make some studio monitors, which is where I think you are headed. Your planned speakers should work fine. With two speakers you can do some cool effects like stereo chorus and ping delay between the speakers. I would consider a higher powered pro tweeter because in a studio things get un-plugged and plugged-in all the time, this is hard on tweeters. Also, make sure to reinforce those cabinets well with lots of bracing. If you are going to cross over those particular drivers I would recommend a higher order filter. Unfortunately, this will increase your cost. You might want to look at 8” full range speakers. Honestly, you may be better ahead by buying a second hand 15W tube combo amp.
Also, like all the guitar players here have pointed out, when you get a real guitar amp you will have an epiphany. Your eyes will be opened, you will jump up and down shouting “I wont be fooled again!” (That’s a Who reference, for all you younger cats) The guitar and the amp ARE the instrument. All of those electronics and models are great fun but they don’t interact with the player like a real tube amp does. Your proposed set-up will be OK for learning guitar but it won’t help at all with learning electric guitar because the instrument is the guitar, the effects, and the amplifier.
That is a very important, usually ignored fact.
An example was mentioned above about playing a guitar unplugged, so in "acoustic mode" , and then comparing it to normal "electric guitar" sounds.
What's ignored is that they are worlds apart and not directly comparable.
Why?
Because magnetic pickups start by producing asymmetric waves with lots of even Harmonics to begin with 😲
No electrical distortion, no preamp nonlinearity involved.
How come?
* Magnetic field intensity varies with square of distance
* Suppose string is 10mm distance from magnet (bar, screws, alnico rods, whatever) , and that it's vibrating a perfect sinewave , 8 mm peak displacement.
So it will move from 2mm away to 18mm away, a 9:1 distance variation.
Magnetic field will vary 81:1 and electrical signal depends on the combination of string displacement (so far like on an Acoustic guitar) but also on magnetic field strength, which as we see is absolutely non linear.
Resultant signal will NOT be a standard sinewave by any means but a strongly assymetrical wave, with one side exhibiting strong peaks.
Very characteristic, full of "flavour".
That alone is a Big game changer.
Note to nitpickers:
Numbers I mentioned are for didactic purposes, typical distances involved are smaller.
Note 2: no, I will not post a video showing it, verbal explanation should be enough 🙄
Note 3: variation will be less than 81:1 because magnetic field is not from a point source, but a somewhat distributed one (although screw tips or alnico rod ends approach that), but the basic principle remains.
Note 4: no, I won't perform a FEMM analysis of string to pickup interaction either, but if anybody wants to, please be my guest.
Note 5: We are also not inducing a current in the string. The string is a magnetic material. Its motion distorts/pulls the magnetic field lines around the end of the pickup magnets, and it is the changing field lines cutting through the pickup coil that causes a voltage to be developed across the coil.
This is just a ridiculous level of threadjacking. What, you just can't live with yourself if one less of your brilliant observations is committed to writing?
A guitar speaker driver is a midd driver End of story. Plenty of the most highly regarded amps use the same speakers that sits in JBL, Cerwin Vega etc, PA tops or midd cabinets. A middrange driver driven full range works as the magic filter we want for great electric guitar sound. It breaks up at the right volume and frequensies. It drops high and it drops low. Filtering out the nastiness that comes out of the guitars pivkups. And then of to the guitar shop to buy pedals, so you can make your amp sound the right kind of nasty again 😀
Cheers!
Cheers!