The phrase "exacting in details" should be our ultimate goal don't you think? If indeed large outdoor arena concerts can obtain extreme SPL levels, your argument of "...the dynamic range of a baby grand at 'live' SPLs..." is not possible....??? That's truly nonsense.
Let's dial it back a little in this hypothetical....how about an individual sitting on a stool with an Oboe in that corner of the studio? Point source to point source...a single loudspeaker.
Myself, I'm working on a Spanish guitar as a reference...my second cousin is an accomplished guitar musician of latino origins, many times he will have his guitar on his shoulder. Van Halen's "Spanish Fly" acoustic solo is another track worthy of trying to duplicate as in, "The guy is right here in front of me!".
To not try to replicate our music in its most accurate form...then it's just "Elevator music" & worthy of derision.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
Let's dial it back a little in this hypothetical....how about an individual sitting on a stool with an Oboe in that corner of the studio? Point source to point source...a single loudspeaker.
Myself, I'm working on a Spanish guitar as a reference...my second cousin is an accomplished guitar musician of latino origins, many times he will have his guitar on his shoulder. Van Halen's "Spanish Fly" acoustic solo is another track worthy of trying to duplicate as in, "The guy is right here in front of me!".
To not try to replicate our music in its most accurate form...then it's just "Elevator music" & worthy of derision.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
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So, how close have you gotten to passing the "what's behind the curtain" test, for Spanish guitar? In my opinion (micro-)dynamic realism is really hard to achieve; ESL has fast transcients but makes guitar sounds like harp, to my ears. The closest in my experience was probably Ted Jordan's Axiom 80 with fleawatt SE tube amp. Of my current horde the "drum paper" cones, some Fostex, and vintage alnico fullrange speakers (with supertweeter) came closest.
Well, if we're going to get into 'exacting in details', I'd suggest you should learn something about what you're talking about (such as how loudspeaker drive units are measured, the different methods, protocols, how they affect response in different ways etc.) before ascending the old soap box. 😉
'Ultimate goal'? No, since most of us live in the real world, and deal with what is possible for a given set of conditions, not some fantasy that we will never be able to attain. For instance, I'd be interested to learn how you propose a pair of, for example, Altec 15in HE woofers and a compression mid-tweet per channel requiring about 200ft^3 of volume apiece is supposed to sit on a desktop, or fit into a 10ft x 12ft room. Or suit somebody with a budget of, say, £40 for drive units. Or serve as low-crossing mid-tweets. Ad infinitum.
Not with 99.999% of domestic hi-fi systems it isn't, and most people aren't in the position to achieve it either, even if they wanted to. As I said. It looks like somebody is talking nonsense, but it ain't coming from this end. 😉
I had my noted cousin, Eduardo Santoro, the guitar guy listen to "Spanish fly" at my take of a live SPL level...and Dire Straits Private Investigations guitar work...noting "how loud" he played with similar riffs, I could get my vintage twelve-inch FR Leea brand drivers to do a decent approximation.
Now of course most all music is fictional constructs formed in the mind of those engineers behind those hundreds of dials & sliders in the studios...but a single miked, single instrument is a start. The fantasy three dimensional field only exists in the mind of the engineer, but hopefully, we can replicate that as well.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
Now of course most all music is fictional constructs formed in the mind of those engineers behind those hundreds of dials & sliders in the studios...but a single miked, single instrument is a start. The fantasy three dimensional field only exists in the mind of the engineer, but hopefully, we can replicate that as well.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
There is of course always more to learn when designing a loudspeaker in trying to attain "exacting" results...given non-linearities exist almost everywhere we look, it seems it is a fools errand, but we must try.
And no, I won't be getting a Klipsch Jubilee anytime, while I could technically plop down 36K USD easily, I don't have the venue for such a large thing. Size matters & the magical shrinking speakers of late is chocked full of compromises....and a pair of Klipschorns in the computer-room while doable, there are more common sense approaches.
A pair of JBL 4350's butted side to side on a three-foot riser would easily replicate a baby grand in a studio...ever really been in a studio?, & had that soundproof door close behind you, listening to music on the monitors?
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And no, I won't be getting a Klipsch Jubilee anytime, while I could technically plop down 36K USD easily, I don't have the venue for such a large thing. Size matters & the magical shrinking speakers of late is chocked full of compromises....and a pair of Klipschorns in the computer-room while doable, there are more common sense approaches.
A pair of JBL 4350's butted side to side on a three-foot riser would easily replicate a baby grand in a studio...ever really been in a studio?, & had that soundproof door close behind you, listening to music on the monitors?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Rick...
But his perspective is that of the performer, ear(s) inches away from a huge soundbox. Even when I sat in 1-1 (front row center*) or temp seats on stage, the perspective and balance are completely different from that of any performer. In my own nomenclature, a "purist" recording tried to capture the sound perspective of the audience (best seat in the house, hopefully) whereas an "audiophile" recording mixed together "ideal" perspectives (usually on-stage close-mic'ed) that no one could simultaneously hear live. Different labels (often founded by a recording engineer) had different philosophies and each a house sound-field/stage.
* I'm an Early Music fan and have been the nearest audience to John Fleagle (Machaut), Gustav Leonhardt (harpsichord), Colin Tilney (clavichord Bach WTC), Jordi Savall (viol/ensemble), Monica Huggett (authentic short-neck Amati), Jon Holloway (Bach chaconne), Hopkinson Smith (lute), Avi Avital (mandolin chaconne), et al.
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This is getting very silly now.
This thread was started by the OP who wanted a small box for a pair of small drive units. A fairly normal thing to do, and fine until you barged on complaining that they can't do something they are not supposed to do (which nobody with a grain of sense would ever think they could), making completely inaccurate comments about frequency response etc. without actually knowing what you were talking about, attempting to impose your views on all and sundry and in effect insulting those who don't automatically accept it. And you're still at it:
To paraphrase one of the greatest engineers in history: it will not be universally admitted that your personal preferences and opinions are to be accepted as a blanket criteria for everybody else, with no regard for context, circumstances, wishes / requirements or anything else whatsoever.
This thread was started by the OP who wanted a small box for a pair of small drive units. A fairly normal thing to do, and fine until you barged on complaining that they can't do something they are not supposed to do (which nobody with a grain of sense would ever think they could), making completely inaccurate comments about frequency response etc. without actually knowing what you were talking about, attempting to impose your views on all and sundry and in effect insulting those who don't automatically accept it. And you're still at it:
Yes. Quite a lot actually. I'm lucky enough to be able to count three of the UK's leading folk artists as personal friends, and I've had the privilage of being in the studio with them many times. And the point remains: not everybody can either afford, or accomodate, a pair of JBL 4350s, even if they wanted to or desired it. Please understand something: this thread is about some compact boxes for a compact 3in driver, not your opinions. If you want to hold forth on how everybody who doesn't use whatever you want them to use is ignorant, you need to start your own thread.
These are my favorite 3 inch drivers in the world. The best bang for your buck. I have them in a rear ported book shelf speakers. Sounds great in that box. Good luck. Jeff
I got a pair of CHN-50 with a Dayton KABD-250 BT / DSP / Amp board set up as a small boom box, here's the thread: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...ught-to-burning-amp-2022.391698/#post-7499179
It's quite nice! I think for this setup the most limiting aspect is that the whole thing is like 14 inches wide so there isn't much breadth of presentation. I bet if you did the same thing as a permanent installation with an electronics box and two separate speakers (and saved money not buying the battery accessories!) you could have a sweet little mini system (but I've heard the ADC on the line in for that board isn't great, I've only been using it BT). I've gotten the line out on the KABD board run into a sub and that works a treat! I'll probably iterate with it a bit more, then write it up in that thread.
A high pass on a vented system will help you get a lot more output, PerryMarshall discusses here - https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dsp-assisted-reflex-system.404349/ - But honestly I wouldn't try to go real deep. It's such a small driver. You can tune a vent low, but then you'll run into excursion issues above tuning - as post 14 illustrates 'the one with less extension has better kick' (those speakers look fantastic, BTW). If you need more LF, get a sub or set up the CHN-50 as a mid-tweet in a 2 way.
It's quite nice! I think for this setup the most limiting aspect is that the whole thing is like 14 inches wide so there isn't much breadth of presentation. I bet if you did the same thing as a permanent installation with an electronics box and two separate speakers (and saved money not buying the battery accessories!) you could have a sweet little mini system (but I've heard the ADC on the line in for that board isn't great, I've only been using it BT). I've gotten the line out on the KABD board run into a sub and that works a treat! I'll probably iterate with it a bit more, then write it up in that thread.
A high pass on a vented system will help you get a lot more output, PerryMarshall discusses here - https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/dsp-assisted-reflex-system.404349/ - But honestly I wouldn't try to go real deep. It's such a small driver. You can tune a vent low, but then you'll run into excursion issues above tuning - as post 14 illustrates 'the one with less extension has better kick' (those speakers look fantastic, BTW). If you need more LF, get a sub or set up the CHN-50 as a mid-tweet in a 2 way.
There is a tool for every job, I think that's what Scott was alluding to...
I have an LG full HD smart TV which is now over 5 years old. To my ears the sound has become muffled on certain films, particularly some from the 80s and 90s. I have the treble turned fully up but the speech is still muffled.
I bought a budget soundbar to see if it would cure the problem...it didn't, and furthermore by using the optical out on the tv the equaliser is disabled, and ther was no equaliser on the soundbar....bah humbug!!
so I built a sound bar with a cheap classd and chn50s.....it's awesome, it's the right size for the available space and it's improved the muffled sound/speech problem....
that's one reason why one person would bother
Nice job, Ed! 🙂 Proportions look great for the space & TV.
Not surprised about the '80s / '90s thing -and a lot of recent stuff for that matter. I don't know if it's because it's been mixed in surround & then just squashed into stereo or if they've just over-compressed it to death (or if it's just lousy mixing -I was watching Wild Scandinavia over new year & there were points where Rebecca Fergusson's [of all people] narration was almost swamped out by the music track). But a lot of it's getting unintelligable.
Not surprised about the '80s / '90s thing -and a lot of recent stuff for that matter. I don't know if it's because it's been mixed in surround & then just squashed into stereo or if they've just over-compressed it to death (or if it's just lousy mixing -I was watching Wild Scandinavia over new year & there were points where Rebecca Fergusson's [of all people] narration was almost swamped out by the music track). But a lot of it's getting unintelligable.