Again just hand-waving. You do so much of it that it probably acts as a workout routine.
Why don't you provide a study or test result that shows GHz noise in mains resulting in something audible (or even measurable) at audio output and how this is made lower using some special cable for the last meter.
That implies you know the answer. But you don’t. All we have are your usual claims that something could potentially, eventually, maybe, in some unspecified conditions .. (just continue with probability clauses) … affect something.
Everyone who disagrees with you is a troll or not a “serious person”. In my opinion, you are sinking and grasping to any “argument” you can.
I believe you can do better. Make an effort.
Everyone who disagrees with you is a troll or not a “serious person”. In my opinion, you are sinking and grasping to any “argument” you can.
I believe you can do better. Make an effort.
@tombo56
It depends on the exact question. The general subject can be quite complicated which makes giving simple answers in a forum post impractical. Some readers know very little about the subject. Some readers will not read long involved explanations and study attached literature. Most won't. I know because the number of downloads of attachments in the forum is given by hovering over the attachment link.
Just to give you an idea of some of the stuff I have studied over the years (not close to all of it), here is a set of books and articles that provide a lot of illumination on the general subject:
To consider how radiated RF incident on a cable makes the cable into some type of antenna, then consider how waves go down cables with and or without shields, then how mode conversion can turn common mode noise into differential (or vice versa), how it can pass into the inside of a metal chassis, how it can couple into transistors, how transistors junctions can modulate/demodulate noise with audio signal, etc., is too much to explain in only a few words.
It depends on the exact question. The general subject can be quite complicated which makes giving simple answers in a forum post impractical. Some readers know very little about the subject. Some readers will not read long involved explanations and study attached literature. Most won't. I know because the number of downloads of attachments in the forum is given by hovering over the attachment link.
Just to give you an idea of some of the stuff I have studied over the years (not close to all of it), here is a set of books and articles that provide a lot of illumination on the general subject:
To consider how radiated RF incident on a cable makes the cable into some type of antenna, then consider how waves go down cables with and or without shields, then how mode conversion can turn common mode noise into differential (or vice versa), how it can pass into the inside of a metal chassis, how it can couple into transistors, how transistors junctions can modulate/demodulate noise with audio signal, etc., is too much to explain in only a few words.
From bad to worse. Now you use as an “argument” that you have studied a lot of PowerPoint presentations and application notes and we should consider you educated in the matter. Does it come to your mind that others have done the same?
Why that knowledge of yours, doesn’t show in answer to the simple asked question as why would one meter of fancy audiophile power cord matter?
It is only for gullible or uninformed (with too much money in the pockets) to spend several hundred to several K $$ on power cord that would filter GHz range noise or do advertised feats that belong to some other universe’s physics laws.
Isn’t it more sensible to use high quality RF filter at power inlet of any audio component?
There is no need for you to take pains in explaining to us “uneducated” how all thatjazz RF noise can enter electronic components and how can it finally end as a demodulated signal in the audio range. Many of us understand that well enough. Unfortunately for your FUD stories, we understand that resulting noise is in nanovolt to microvolt range and is insignificant. Where a single nanovolt matters, noise is suppressed by more effective methods than a fancy power cord.
Why that knowledge of yours, doesn’t show in answer to the simple asked question as why would one meter of fancy audiophile power cord matter?
It is only for gullible or uninformed (with too much money in the pockets) to spend several hundred to several K $$ on power cord that would filter GHz range noise or do advertised feats that belong to some other universe’s physics laws.
Isn’t it more sensible to use high quality RF filter at power inlet of any audio component?
There is no need for you to take pains in explaining to us “uneducated” how all that
The practical thing to do is probably as 1audio suggested (if you don't like it go after him for arm waving):
And to claim "otherwise unexplained behavior in digital systems," I can just imagine how you two would jump all over me to prove it. Well, if you are acting on principle rather than personal animus, then why don't you demand the same from other people as you demand from me? Most people reading this thread already know why you're inconsistent.
Or you go after MrCMRR for hand waving, since he hasn't proved what noise getting into a system actually sounds like to a human, nor has he proven it can be audible):
And to claim "otherwise unexplained behavior in digital systems," I can just imagine how you two would jump all over me to prove it. Well, if you are acting on principle rather than personal animus, then why don't you demand the same from other people as you demand from me? Most people reading this thread already know why you're inconsistent.
Sorry, but replying to your question "why don't you demand the same from other people as you demand from me?" is not hand-waving.
Ah, last resort. Allusions that I have something against you.
Have a nice day. Our discussion has come to the end.
IIUC, forum members tend to dislike bickering more than they care about who is right or wrong.
With that, I will stop here for now.
With that, I will stop here for now.
I mention power cables, you come back with speaker cables?
Stay focused.
It's trivial to short an amp or drive a 4 ohm resistor, and with the hood up, hear the circuitry making music sounds. It's the second harmonic of the music, frequency doubled. That is because lorentz pushes the two conductors apart regardless of the current direction.
Same thing happens with TO-3 cans, the emitter wirebond can vibrate, it's possible to hear it in a silent room.
A 60 hz power cable can only vibrate at 120 hz plus haversine content. but it doesn't alter the ground.
edit: You really came up with the statement that I think lorentz forces are imaginary?? Really? I deal with lorentz forces up to the 5-10 Kpsi level. Why would you accuse me of thinking it was imaginary??
John
Last edited:
I've done it in the past on this forum as well as on AA. I feel no need to do it again.
Especially now that it is trivial to simply google the effect. I'm sure there is now an online calculator to use. Even the hyperphysics site probably has one.
And as I said, once you know the modulus of the insulation holding the conductors, it's easy to calculate the deflection as a function of current.
Edit: as to your oddly trollish response to my EMC/EMI statement about it being up and coming, anybody who wished to learn should google Tom Van Doren. He gives an excellent two day course/seminar on the topic, it was an eye opener for many of the engineers who took the course. I recall finding many chapters of his course notebook when I googled it.
He only had two mistakes in his course. He said you can't run unbalanced signals across a room without picking up noise (whereas I had been doing it for about 5 years by that time, the technique is in my archives here. Second, he stated twisted pairs will not communicate with each other, which is not quite accurate if the two cables have the same twist pitch. They need to be far apart (at least 5 twist pitch distances), or they must be orthogonal as the wires in a cat-5 cable. But other than those two trivially unimportant errors, his course was massive and very well organized.
John
Last edited:
You did respond to him. That seemed perfect to me.
If Bill Whitlock wished to ask me, all he has to do is hit that reply button on the emails we sent back and forth.
And wow, you got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning, no? What's up with that?
John
Twisted pairs are twisted pairs.
Haversine current pulses contain high frequency harmonics. Those HF current pulse components can't produce radiated EMI (possibly due to mode conversion)? They can't cause further distortion of the AC power waveform related to Lorentz force motion?
I know there is are reasons for binding speaker cable conductors tightly together. If they are allowed to move it can affect the sound out of the speakers, at least if using sensitive electrostatic speakers. Therefore, I have some doubts that the effects are necessarily always negligible in power cords. They may be second order effects, but that would not necessarily mean they are zero effects.
Why do I say that? Because I know some people listening on some systems can hear small differences which are not imaginary. In particular, one of the specific things I know is that is some cases people can hear differences between power cords. Providing research quality statistical evidence for that however is cost prohibitive. I have already looked into and discussed the logistics of doing so with a number of people including those who are trained and experienced at experimental design. Its not going to happen unless somebody wants to fund a substantial grant.
Also, if people ever can hear a real difference between power cords, even one person in the world on single system, it means there must be a physical explanation. Those other people saying its impossible because one meter is only a small fraction of the overall distance back to the power generator don't have the least understanding of the physics of EMI/RFI. Why don't you lecture them? Is it because you are one of them?
Last edited:
If I said that I would have at least 3 people demanding a link. How would you like that treatment? Therefore, please post your link.
Follow your own advice as you gave Bill:
""If you really want to know, you can use the search function at the top of the page. Just search for posts by the particular author, using the search term, Whitlock."
If you want to calculate how the haversine currents modulate the line voltage, do the math.
Surely you've read a pdf on that, no?
hmm. As I recall, they say someone who practices at something for 10,000 hours can be considered an expert. How may pdf's does it take to reach 10,000 hours?
As I said, it is rather trivial to google lorentz force, and an online calculator will let you just input numbers, and it produces results.
Not so difficult, no?
Is it your duty to inject animosity into this thread to close it down?
John
""If you really want to know, you can use the search function at the top of the page. Just search for posts by the particular author, using the search term, Whitlock."
If you want to calculate how the haversine currents modulate the line voltage, do the math.
Surely you've read a pdf on that, no?
hmm. As I recall, they say someone who practices at something for 10,000 hours can be considered an expert. How may pdf's does it take to reach 10,000 hours?
As I said, it is rather trivial to google lorentz force, and an online calculator will let you just input numbers, and it produces results.
Not so difficult, no?
Is it your duty to inject animosity into this thread to close it down?
John
No. I know if you use fast diodes such as Schottky then current pulses approximately modeled as Haversine can have more or less discontinuous derivatives which result in very high frequency Fourier components. I don't think anyone can say as an absolute that no radiated EMI/RFI can result. If problems like that never happened then we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.
Bottom line IMHO this comes down to one thing only which is germane to this thread. What is your position on power cables? It is impossible for them to affect sound out of an audio device or not?
@1audio seems to think it would likely depend on construction. I agree. Do you disagree?
Bottom line IMHO this comes down to one thing only which is germane to this thread. What is your position on power cables? It is impossible for them to affect sound out of an audio device or not?
@1audio seems to think it would likely depend on construction. I agree. Do you disagree?