Hi all,
There are a few questions I’m looking to get answers for relating to safety and electrical fields
1. What are the risks associated with typical electrical fields found in homes and business? There may be cases in commercial business or properties where these risks are reduced for many reasons not necessarily related to perceived health concerns? Some industrial or electrical power supply business will have specific practices to address very real safety concerns. What are the reasonable steps or mitigations that can be applied to residential properties either in established building codes or that can be performed by owner or occupier?
2. Is EMF measured in current per metre squared and what is the difference between emf and the electrical potential in free space measured in volts per square meter? What are the safe limits for frequencies in the related to appliances ( not wifi Bluetooth 5G etc).
3. While EMF from appliances is generally regarded as ‘safe’ there are those that claim to be sensitive. While there are various videos on you tube with cheap hand held meters, I have read that these are not particularly accurate at the frequency ranges that may be associated with fields generated from appliances. ‘Do I have to be worried’ about electrical fields in the house wiring or is the real concern proper grounding of appliances that are supposed to be grounded?
https://www.healthline.com/health/emf
4.Do we unknowingly put our selves at risk through poor design? Or a lack of the ability to determine the risk due to the background noise of life’s other risks and dangers? Lead dress and component layout can have a significant effect on the performance of a boutique or high end amplifier. Are ‘cheaply built’ houses filled with always on appliances electrical nightmares that can affect your experience of life or health with out you knowing why?
I am not wearing a tinfoil hat but can go to the kitchen and make one if the brains trust recommends 🤔
There are a few questions I’m looking to get answers for relating to safety and electrical fields
1. What are the risks associated with typical electrical fields found in homes and business? There may be cases in commercial business or properties where these risks are reduced for many reasons not necessarily related to perceived health concerns? Some industrial or electrical power supply business will have specific practices to address very real safety concerns. What are the reasonable steps or mitigations that can be applied to residential properties either in established building codes or that can be performed by owner or occupier?
2. Is EMF measured in current per metre squared and what is the difference between emf and the electrical potential in free space measured in volts per square meter? What are the safe limits for frequencies in the related to appliances ( not wifi Bluetooth 5G etc).
3. While EMF from appliances is generally regarded as ‘safe’ there are those that claim to be sensitive. While there are various videos on you tube with cheap hand held meters, I have read that these are not particularly accurate at the frequency ranges that may be associated with fields generated from appliances. ‘Do I have to be worried’ about electrical fields in the house wiring or is the real concern proper grounding of appliances that are supposed to be grounded?
https://www.healthline.com/health/emf
4.Do we unknowingly put our selves at risk through poor design? Or a lack of the ability to determine the risk due to the background noise of life’s other risks and dangers? Lead dress and component layout can have a significant effect on the performance of a boutique or high end amplifier. Are ‘cheaply built’ houses filled with always on appliances electrical nightmares that can affect your experience of life or health with out you knowing why?
I am not wearing a tinfoil hat but can go to the kitchen and make one if the brains trust recommends 🤔
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1) Do not put kitten in microwave
2) If the neutral wire for the light on the ceiling does not run in the same conduit as the live, but instead makes a huge loop around the room, that will soak the room with AC magnetic field. It won't give you cancer, but your phono preamp might catch an epic hum problem when the light is on.
2) If the neutral wire for the light on the ceiling does not run in the same conduit as the live, but instead makes a huge loop around the room, that will soak the room with AC magnetic field. It won't give you cancer, but your phono preamp might catch an epic hum problem when the light is on.
If anything the most concern for environmental non-ionizing radiation exposure may have to do with long term cell phone use. Particularly so if the phone is held at the ear and thus adjacent to the the brain. Some info from the FDA: https://www.fda.gov/radiation-emitt...adiation when,increases cancer risk in humans.
If you have a single-wire pacemaker you might want to take special care. My old dad has one and he has to avoid not only the obvious dangers -- MRI machines -- but also less obvious domestic hazards... like induction stoves.
EMF = electrical potential = Volts
I would worry more about your cell phone, if you use it a lot.
I would worry more about your cell phone, if you use it a lot.
Electrical field strength = Volts / Meter
EMF = ElectroMotive Force = Volts
It appears that some also use EMF to mean Electric and Magnetic Fields.
https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/topics/cellphones/
EMF = ElectroMotive Force = Volts
It appears that some also use EMF to mean Electric and Magnetic Fields.
https://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/whatwestudy/topics/cellphones/
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Thanks, I generally understand that there is some concern or debate about the risk of cell phones when held to the head.
Seehttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6513191/
However, for the sake of this discussion I’m interested in safety / health concerns around the house other than phones and wifi, Bluetooth etc.
While I may want to shield the controls cavity of my guitar with free shielding paint or copper tape to prevent noise, is there any sensible or reasonable reason for suggesting that shielding is at all beneficial for a domestic room?
Do some commercial buildings require metal shielded wires rather than plastic coated wires? If so is this for protection against rats or some other reason.
When planning a new house is there any reason to consider any of the claims in these videos unless I’m planning to divine for water or run a hadron collider inside my living room?
Are there utterly no basis for the claims? Or are they a misuse or improper application of general electrical principles when considering the power levels found in domestic wiring and appliances?
Under what circumstances is the potential harm from EMF neither far fetched nor foreseeable?
Xray and MRI being the obvious case where they are designed for a specific purpose.
When is it is reasonable to take protection against EMF when using equipment or in an environment where EMF occurs as a side effect rather than the intended outcome?
Having a conversation around this topic feels like trying to disprove the existence of ghosts
EMF claims Unbelievable?
Little research has been done on possible health effects of 60Hz fields, just some correlation studies.
If it does cause serious problems, then we are certainly all doomed.
SMPS can feed noise into the AC power line, so shielded wiring in power cords and walls can help
to reduce ambient electrical noise levels.
For the truly fearful, room-scale Faraday cages are a possibility.
If it does cause serious problems, then we are certainly all doomed.
SMPS can feed noise into the AC power line, so shielded wiring in power cords and walls can help
to reduce ambient electrical noise levels.
For the truly fearful, room-scale Faraday cages are a possibility.
Attachments
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Around here some folks live entirely without electricity. Their life expectancy is 70 years. Folks with electricity average 77 years. It used to be a bit more before Covid.
Amish?
Frequent long distance fliers will receive more potentially harmful radiation due to
the thinner high altitude atmosphere.
Frequent long distance fliers will receive more potentially harmful radiation due to
the thinner high altitude atmosphere.
Life expectancy is not really the issue.
The videos linked above are examples of business making recommendations to reduce EMF exposure to protect peoples health in some perhaps subtle ways.
Life expectancy does not directly address non specific health impacts that may be perceived by an individual. (There could be risks of electrocution in poorly wired houses both old and new, but that’s not the point)
I completely accept that the perceived risk may be negligible or in fact completely false.
I’m interested in countering these claims with an argument that directly contradicts the perceived benefit of reducing EMF, especially that will work with someone who aligns themselves with much of the esoterica around wellness and general fear mongering.
You can't prove a negative. We know X-rays ( 3E16 Hz) can be harmful, having observed the effects.
Microwaves can cause heating, and UV/visible light can cause skin cancer.
But there is no evidence of harm from 60Hz fields.
Microwaves can cause heating, and UV/visible light can cause skin cancer.
But there is no evidence of harm from 60Hz fields.
When you say "risks" is it just life expectancy, or does long life but as a mentally off person count for concern too? I'd be more worried about something like clarity of mind requires an EMI-free environment. Which, unfortunately, we do not have anymore. Most people born in the last 20-30 years dont even have the experience of what that's like. Being a teen in the 1970's, I had at least some life experience before the great EMI "steeping" all of us are pickled in these days. Then they want a 5G emitter on every streetlight...
An interesting aside; I got a BT / USB class D amplifier of usual Chinese origin. Looking at the components, not much of an output filter, particularly the inductor - looks like most of the other pepper-flake components. Connected to and playing music through my garage speakers, then using a small AM/FM radio placed on the outside of the building where the wires run up to the speakers, the radio can play the music the amp is playing. Just from the EMI coming off the wires. Not barely hear above some background noise, but clear as a bell. Try that one sometime.
Our EMI standards are based on interfering with another's right to uninterrupted service - not human well being. Who knows what's really happening to us. The class D bedroom system with "Use Your Illusion II" speakers is sounding good, so I'll sit back and enjoy my wireless fed, network serviced stream. Then I'll take the dog for a walk.
An interesting aside; I got a BT / USB class D amplifier of usual Chinese origin. Looking at the components, not much of an output filter, particularly the inductor - looks like most of the other pepper-flake components. Connected to and playing music through my garage speakers, then using a small AM/FM radio placed on the outside of the building where the wires run up to the speakers, the radio can play the music the amp is playing. Just from the EMI coming off the wires. Not barely hear above some background noise, but clear as a bell. Try that one sometime.
Our EMI standards are based on interfering with another's right to uninterrupted service - not human well being. Who knows what's really happening to us. The class D bedroom system with "Use Your Illusion II" speakers is sounding good, so I'll sit back and enjoy my wireless fed, network serviced stream. Then I'll take the dog for a walk.
What started the conversation I am having is a YouTube video with a hand held detector. I did a bit more searching to find a counter video as to why they are dodgy and found the first video I have linked.
Half way through that video the presenter plugs a fridge into a non grounded ‘cheater’ plug and then measures voltage in free air at 22v / square metre. The comments made are this is harmful to the human body.
The next two videos l linked started well and truely down the rabbit hole.
The second video has someone using a multimeter connected to earth and holding the other lead claiming that they can determine there is two volts AC flowing to ground before a lamp is turned off.
Seems like it’s misleading at best, fraudulent at worst
I don’t know what building codes state or what’s appliances standards say about EMF if anything at all.
These people on the video appear to not have obvious mental issues but who knows. Maybe every thing they say will reduce EMF but from the answer I’m getting it appears it’s really not necessary or beneficial and obsessing about it is more likely a symptom of the ill informed / potential mentally disturbed or simply gullible.
You can't change people's minds. Just forget it.
Also most people can NOT take proper measurements (Volts, or even cm/inches). Volts per square meter (or even volts squared per meter) is bogus.
There are people who spend much time in HIGH EMF fields. Guy who jumps from a helicopter to a 100,000 volt power line to inspect the insulators. Old-time broadcast engineers. Some old-school radio amateurs sat next to leaky transmitters most of the night, so someone did a study. A slight increase of some condition was not significant and could also be explained by high coffee consumption.
And metal MC cable is to limit electrical fire, evade nails, cheap conduit. Much modern MC is so wispy I dunno if it actually contains EMF or just focuses it.
Actually reducing EMF is painstaking work. Like keeping cold out, the least crack spoils the job.
From 1929:
Not that I believe everything, or anything, Hugo Gernsback wrote. And of course he would be skeptical because he was selling the stuff. But this is not a new concern.
Not that I believe everything, or anything, Hugo Gernsback wrote. And of course he would be skeptical because he was selling the stuff. But this is not a new concern.
Unless you are close enough to a transmitter powerful enough (I also count a BIG transformer as a transmitter too) to cause measurable voltage across 2 points on your skin (which would be the most exposed part of your body by definition) I fail to see how that could have any Physiological effect (let alone damage).
And "to put some numbers into it":
* take 2 metallic plates, 1 meter apart, apply 1V voltage difference between them.
Now you have, by definition, a "1V per meter Electrical field" between them.
Experiment as you wish: put a couple white mice in that space, your hand, a flower pot, a teabag brewing inside a cup of hot water, a Big Mac, an alkaline battery, anything.
Any detectable change in anything?
Doubt you will see/measure anything unless you reach multi kV difference between those plates.
* repeat experiment but now placing test subjects inside a 1 meter coil carrying current.
If DC, hundreds of amperes will flow with no physiological change, let alone Physical one (heating up, moving, etc.)
With some trepidation I put 1 finger inside my "home" magnetizer coil, passing some 80000 Ampere/Turns .... nothing, not even a warm or tingling sensation.
Mind you, coil is inside a large magnetic structure which focuses field into a narrow gap area so at best spot it may be way higher than that average value.
Nothing.
* now repeat but using low frequencies, think 50/60 Hz.
To treat my knee and Sciatica problems, now and then I get "Magneto-therapy" sessions.
Not trusting them much (not for being anti-Science but on the contrary, for having calculated Magnetic field and finding it minuscule) but accepting them because I find them innocuous plus my Doctor gets angry otherwise 😉 , I have put my leg (including knee) inside a nice white coil which gets passed from hip to toe while Doctor asks "do you feel better now?"
What can I answer?
Yes of course, she´s a Beauty, very nice manners, and "believes", so why disappoint her? 😉
But in truth: "nothing".
* now use RF and higher frequencies.
NOW we are talking.
"Radiotherapy" has been used for almost 100 years now, at high power (say >50-100W) radio waves penetrate skin and cause heating in ionic liquids (almost all inside a body) so we start with easy to perceive and measure local heating which in principle is perceived as "soothing" and "relaxing".
I can attest to that.
Now focusing on 2 specific cases which worry many:
* 50/60 Hz power lines?
The real BIG ones such as coming out of large power stations are typically quite far away from people, not sure how they could have measurable effects.
I have seen (videos) of people approaching one with a fluorescent tube on hand and having it glow faintly a few meters away.
Cool, but it being a discharge tube, currents are minimal, I think of it as a glorified Neon screwdriver, just as dangerous, not more.
YMMV
* cellphones?
Physics says that being very near an antenna, at gHz frequencies, our body WILL absorb some.
Effect will be proportional to power involved (duh!)
A very sensitive thermometer "should" detect very slight heating, Physics 101 (our body absorbs some energy and turns it into heat)
Cancer? genetic damage? .... you can´t prove a negative but unless some positive proof appears, I doubt it.
There is a possibility , no doubt, but unless proven ......
Assigning Cancer, genetic damage , etc. to previous use of Cellphones remains at least unproven either by experiment or Statistics, so .....
And "to put some numbers into it":
* take 2 metallic plates, 1 meter apart, apply 1V voltage difference between them.
Now you have, by definition, a "1V per meter Electrical field" between them.
Experiment as you wish: put a couple white mice in that space, your hand, a flower pot, a teabag brewing inside a cup of hot water, a Big Mac, an alkaline battery, anything.
Any detectable change in anything?
Doubt you will see/measure anything unless you reach multi kV difference between those plates.
* repeat experiment but now placing test subjects inside a 1 meter coil carrying current.
If DC, hundreds of amperes will flow with no physiological change, let alone Physical one (heating up, moving, etc.)
With some trepidation I put 1 finger inside my "home" magnetizer coil, passing some 80000 Ampere/Turns .... nothing, not even a warm or tingling sensation.
Mind you, coil is inside a large magnetic structure which focuses field into a narrow gap area so at best spot it may be way higher than that average value.
Nothing.
* now repeat but using low frequencies, think 50/60 Hz.
To treat my knee and Sciatica problems, now and then I get "Magneto-therapy" sessions.
Not trusting them much (not for being anti-Science but on the contrary, for having calculated Magnetic field and finding it minuscule) but accepting them because I find them innocuous plus my Doctor gets angry otherwise 😉 , I have put my leg (including knee) inside a nice white coil which gets passed from hip to toe while Doctor asks "do you feel better now?"
What can I answer?
Yes of course, she´s a Beauty, very nice manners, and "believes", so why disappoint her? 😉
But in truth: "nothing".
* now use RF and higher frequencies.
NOW we are talking.
"Radiotherapy" has been used for almost 100 years now, at high power (say >50-100W) radio waves penetrate skin and cause heating in ionic liquids (almost all inside a body) so we start with easy to perceive and measure local heating which in principle is perceived as "soothing" and "relaxing".
I can attest to that.
Now focusing on 2 specific cases which worry many:
* 50/60 Hz power lines?
The real BIG ones such as coming out of large power stations are typically quite far away from people, not sure how they could have measurable effects.
I have seen (videos) of people approaching one with a fluorescent tube on hand and having it glow faintly a few meters away.
Cool, but it being a discharge tube, currents are minimal, I think of it as a glorified Neon screwdriver, just as dangerous, not more.
YMMV
* cellphones?
Physics says that being very near an antenna, at gHz frequencies, our body WILL absorb some.
Effect will be proportional to power involved (duh!)
A very sensitive thermometer "should" detect very slight heating, Physics 101 (our body absorbs some energy and turns it into heat)
Cancer? genetic damage? .... you can´t prove a negative but unless some positive proof appears, I doubt it.
There is a possibility , no doubt, but unless proven ......
Assigning Cancer, genetic damage , etc. to previous use of Cellphones remains at least unproven either by experiment or Statistics, so .....
Electronics that have been properly UL or CE listed/certified have had ElectroMagnetic Compatibility (EMC) testing as part of the process. This involves placing the equipment in an anechoic chamber with antennas and other test equipment to detect radiated and conducted emissions. Different standards apply to different types of equipment, and standards can vary depending on country. While this probably won't comfort someone that's very worried about the topic, it does help limit unintended emissions at higher frequencies.
https://emcfastpass.com/emc-testing-beginners-guide/
https://www.element.com/nucleus/202...-how-to-choose-the-right-harmonized-standards
https://www.ul.com/insights/emc-standards-classification-and-committees
https://emcfastpass.com/anechoic-chamber-guide/
Long-term minor effects from things like this are hard to quantify. Unless you are willing to do very large long-term tests, it's nearly impossible to tease out the details. And sometimes you have to use human test subjects, which is typically frowned upon.