I use Janzen Superior Caps in my crossovers. I see that the sky is the limit on this stuff. I was considering Miflex, Audyn or Jupiter. THey are very expensive. Would there be an audible difference? I would only use it in the tweeter circuit.
There's only one way to find out, to try it. Some deny there is any capacitor difference at all,
and the rest of us know that there is. But how much difference vs the cost is an individual matter.
Maybe somebody on diyAudio has some used ones to sell.
and the rest of us know that there is. But how much difference vs the cost is an individual matter.
Maybe somebody on diyAudio has some used ones to sell.
Would there be an audible difference? Most capacitor people willing to experiment would say yes, many others would say no and would accuse you of wanting to throw away your money on snake oil and the only way they would ever grant you the honor of taking you seriously is with a quadruple blind A/B test taken at zero gravity. Kidding aside, I would consider just using a bypass capacitor with your existing tweeter capacitor. Depending on what sound you are looking for, you can use the Duelund JDM pure silver foil which will give you some smooth treble and kind of puts a pleasant gloss on things. Or you could use the JDM Tinned Copper that gives a livelier presentation to the treble and really has an interesting ability to add some realistic tone to instruments and vocal. Or you could go with the VH Audio ODAM, which I haven't personally experienced but I've heard that it gives a nice almost tube-like glow to things (but again I haven't heard it in person). I would recommend investing in one of each and using alligator clips to attach them first and listen through only one speaker. It might sound like a waste of money not to buy in pairs, but it will give you the most experience in how different capacitors sound and you can always experiment with your other capacitors in other parts of your system, such as in the power supply. It sounds insane, but putting the Duelund Tinner Copper as a bypass capacitor in my Allo USBridge Signature has really done wonders, so just keep experimenting and don't listen to the naysayers who already know everything. Again, you might hear a difference or you might not and if you don't hear a difference then no, you aren't 'deaf' as some would say. Just enjoy the experimentation and take everyone's opinion with a large grain of salt, especially mine!
That would explain a lot! 😳
What has always struck me as curious was the psychology of the 'don't try it' crowd. On one side you have people who don't claim to know everything, but the one thing they do know for certain is themselves and what they hear and those people claim to hear a difference when using different capacitors. These people have no problem experimenting and going on their merry way, and I never get a sense of them forcing a certain action or inaction on others. There is no 'dogma' its just a notion of 'Hey bro, try it and see.' I think the spirit is that of curiosity and discovery.
Then for some strange reason there is another type of person. This person does act as if there is a dogma behind their position. First, they are extremely passionate about how things 'don't' make a difference and it looks like their goals are either to mock others believing as they do, or to convince people on the fence not to experiment. This feverish notion to convince people not to even try something and find out for themselves is so foreign to me, I never understood it. One could claim that it is compassion for the other person driving this, meaning they don't wish for that person to begin wasting their money on something they themselves are convinced will not make a difference. But where is the same compassion for the stranger who claims they themselves do hear a difference? Is the compassion present as they are mocking them? I've always been curious about what drives the 'don't try it don't be curious' crowd because before getting into audio, I never experienced such a passionate bunch.
If I got out of a movie that was just absolutely terrible and came across a total stranger very excited to see it, I wouldn't try to change their minds. But let's say this person was somehow poor or only could see one movie per year, then I might try to convince them to perhaps see another movie with their ticket solely out of compassion. However, if they remained adamant about wanting to see that particular movie, honestly deep down I wouldn't care. Not to the point of insulting them, that would be absolutely mad. Unless of course I had some sort of pathology where I truly believed that I was the full and total arbiter of the 'truth' and no other human's opinion, regardless of how innocent, was valid unless I deemed it so.
Anyways, I digress. Time to do my taxes and I'm obviously procrastinating by writing this long post. 🙂
"Then for some strange reason there is another type of person. This person does act as if there is a dogma behind their position. First, they are extremely passionate about how things 'don't' make a difference and it looks like their goals are either to mock others believing as they do, or to convince people on the fence not to experiment. This feverish notion to convince people not to even try something and find out for themselves is so foreign to me, I never understood it. "
I'm afraid that you are exactly right. It is a combination of arrogance and bullying.
And I just finished my taxes.
I'm afraid that you are exactly right. It is a combination of arrogance and bullying.
And I just finished my taxes.
I've never been a proponent of bypassing as it can be a very mixed bag of results. Using too small a value nullifies the impact whereas too large a value could cause the result to be less than the former.
I've had smear in a couple tries where it sounded like 2 signals and one delayed to echo the first. Terrible that was.
I really like the Jantzen z lines, and find them to do the job quite well. I have some others to try in the near future and see what i think. The Audyn Plus was close to the Superior, and slightly less spacious.
I've had smear in a couple tries where it sounded like 2 signals and one delayed to echo the first. Terrible that was.
I really like the Jantzen z lines, and find them to do the job quite well. I have some others to try in the near future and see what i think. The Audyn Plus was close to the Superior, and slightly less spacious.
Hi, I have been having just this discussion with a colleague, Carl Huff, who has been responsible for several loudspeaker and preamplifier designs. My concern was that my JBL 250ti speakers come already equipped with electrolytic capacitors and naturally, my thought was to upgrade them to film...or go even further and make them charge-coupled (at some cost and complexity, but as recommended by the designer, Greg Timbers). Anyway, Carl had the thought that switching to different cap types could take you away from the designer's intended sound. He said " Your comment about poly caps always being a better choice than electrolytics has always been my experience. But of course, the sound will change, which means that you are purposely moving away from that JBL 'legacy sound'. Poly caps for crossovers get expensive quickly. Perhaps a compromise might be to replace the electrolytic caps with Elna Silmic II caps?". Looking at Elna website, it does seem that they are offering superior quality caps but based on electrolytics, perhaps killing two birds with one stone? See https://www.hificollective.co.uk/capacitors/elna-silmic.html and https://www.elna.co.jp/en/capacitor/pdf/catalog_21-22_e.pdf
Hi,
Current involved is too much big for such caps imo. However look at the Nichicon DB bipolar capacitor made for loudspeakers filter. I also asked somewhere if some smd high voltage film caps could resist for loudspeakers filter without answers...
I am suprised noone is talking about the quality of resistors at this point when discussion beginns with Jantzen Superior caps, very good quality already.
Also is thers still lythics somewhere in the filter ? Shunt caps, i.e. low pass caps, zobel, notch....?
Current involved is too much big for such caps imo. However look at the Nichicon DB bipolar capacitor made for loudspeakers filter. I also asked somewhere if some smd high voltage film caps could resist for loudspeakers filter without answers...
I am suprised noone is talking about the quality of resistors at this point when discussion beginns with Jantzen Superior caps, very good quality already.
Also is thers still lythics somewhere in the filter ? Shunt caps, i.e. low pass caps, zobel, notch....?
Well, read this first and then decide if it's worth it: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...tor-upgrade-in-crossover-is-it-audible.12287/
As suggested, build one with, one without. Actually, build one with generic electros, and one with cheap poly to see if you can hear a difference there. Many can't, Many can. Then compare standard vs "esoteric" caps. There are measurable differences, but how audible is up to you. And hey, if you hear it better due solely due to placebo effect, it makes it better for you and it is the music that matters. It is all in our head after all.
You are listening for distortion. I found the most revealing to be cymbals and soprano voices. The seem to hit across our most sensitive range. Don't get fooled by small eq differences from part tolerances. Easier said than done.
Be aware ASE is populated by many who have a "religious" fervor nothing is audible. Very good testing, invaluable objective data, but the forum can be as insane as the forums who put blocks under cables and foil triangles on the doors, just to the other extreme.
Consider where to put your money. Caps or drivers?
FWIW, I use the standard Dayton poly caps. I guess if you were using $5000 diamond tweeters, then the cost of esoteric non-inductive shielded copper foil caps the size of a coke can may be worth it, but consider cost benefits. A $40 copper foil cap is not going to make a $20 Vifa sound better than a $200 ScanSpeak tweeter. People get carried away with inductor wire gauge without looking at the entire circuit. ( Now, air core vs iron is often audible). Yup, I have seen a 12 gauge coil in series with a pad.
In engineering, the first 90% of the problem takes the first 90% of the money. The last 10% takes the other 90% of the money. So, pick your biggest problem and fix 90% of it. Them move on to your next biggest problem. Fix 90% of it. Lather, rinse, repeat. In theory, the first left 10% will eventually become your biggest problem, and you address it then. In reality, that almost never happens as you exceed the cost before that.
And I can still hear 18K 😛
You are listening for distortion. I found the most revealing to be cymbals and soprano voices. The seem to hit across our most sensitive range. Don't get fooled by small eq differences from part tolerances. Easier said than done.
Be aware ASE is populated by many who have a "religious" fervor nothing is audible. Very good testing, invaluable objective data, but the forum can be as insane as the forums who put blocks under cables and foil triangles on the doors, just to the other extreme.
Consider where to put your money. Caps or drivers?
FWIW, I use the standard Dayton poly caps. I guess if you were using $5000 diamond tweeters, then the cost of esoteric non-inductive shielded copper foil caps the size of a coke can may be worth it, but consider cost benefits. A $40 copper foil cap is not going to make a $20 Vifa sound better than a $200 ScanSpeak tweeter. People get carried away with inductor wire gauge without looking at the entire circuit. ( Now, air core vs iron is often audible). Yup, I have seen a 12 gauge coil in series with a pad.
In engineering, the first 90% of the problem takes the first 90% of the money. The last 10% takes the other 90% of the money. So, pick your biggest problem and fix 90% of it. Them move on to your next biggest problem. Fix 90% of it. Lather, rinse, repeat. In theory, the first left 10% will eventually become your biggest problem, and you address it then. In reality, that almost never happens as you exceed the cost before that.
And I can still hear 18K 😛
Audioscience review has a problem : they do not understand what is involved with the word science related to what is an experiment protocol, enough said...
what tvrgeek is saying makes sense : you can spent 90 % of the amount of the stuff more for the last 10% improvement. Thinking it twice, maybe a from scratch design with 15% of the amount will you drive closer from the 95% of improvement you are looking for.
From a pure sounding and subjective point of view as a financial one, some better % margin may be elswhere as this is a whole you are listening too : is your source good enough, amp, room, listening position, loudspeaker positionning... etc. you know it already !
But measurement is overestimated imo when it comes to measurement and caps change at the level they are talking about. Myself I can hear in my system in some area of the loudspeaker filter 0.1 uF difference in the mid. But I also can hear a difference with two mkp of 1,008 uF and a different mkp of 1.002 uF. Is the difference coming from the 0.006 uF ? I do not think so. Audioscience review clames is: the difference comes from there because they can measure it , without saying themselves it could come from another factor they do not know how to measure or evaluate with the right protocol or even doesn't know or noticed ! And they say this is science ! I'm laughing...
Ah yes, if you can not measure it then it is the placebo effect... it sounds smarter when you have no explanation ! I'm laughing out of loud this time: they could not tell the difference between a neanderthalian cuting stone and a samurai sword cause they measure they have the same cuting efficienty ... funny people that evaluate subjective sounding speaker with one unit and do not see the difference between a Topping 50 dac that measure well and a better sounding DAC that measure worst but sounds way better ! Oh yes I know Placebo effect ! I call it myself the Soekris effect : looks good sounds bad whatever the numbers are saying! Don't tell it or a bunch of zombies without ears tells you you were contaminated by the placebo virus, sorta of autoimmune disease, uh !
Best answer imho : if you want to change the cap and see if another is better, only your ears can tell you, but 0.1 to 0.05 uF difference in some setup can be heard in some areas of the filter in some hifi with some loudspeakers, not always. So measure the cap first, try to buy some that are close enough with the margin I talk above, use the same soldering material, burn it in without being in the room for 50 to 100 hours then do your test with material you know like your pocket. Imo, for something really different, try another dielectric technology or sounding character : for instance you have a Jantszen, try a cap that sounds darker.
As far as you are aware that you are in the 90/10% TVGEEK is talking about, nothing bad, it is your own hard earned monney and it is a hobby that is more than just listening to music at this level (or we spent more in reccordings).
Of course YMMV, it's your ears and your hifi after all 🙂
what tvrgeek is saying makes sense : you can spent 90 % of the amount of the stuff more for the last 10% improvement. Thinking it twice, maybe a from scratch design with 15% of the amount will you drive closer from the 95% of improvement you are looking for.
From a pure sounding and subjective point of view as a financial one, some better % margin may be elswhere as this is a whole you are listening too : is your source good enough, amp, room, listening position, loudspeaker positionning... etc. you know it already !
But measurement is overestimated imo when it comes to measurement and caps change at the level they are talking about. Myself I can hear in my system in some area of the loudspeaker filter 0.1 uF difference in the mid. But I also can hear a difference with two mkp of 1,008 uF and a different mkp of 1.002 uF. Is the difference coming from the 0.006 uF ? I do not think so. Audioscience review clames is: the difference comes from there because they can measure it , without saying themselves it could come from another factor they do not know how to measure or evaluate with the right protocol or even doesn't know or noticed ! And they say this is science ! I'm laughing...
Ah yes, if you can not measure it then it is the placebo effect... it sounds smarter when you have no explanation ! I'm laughing out of loud this time: they could not tell the difference between a neanderthalian cuting stone and a samurai sword cause they measure they have the same cuting efficienty ... funny people that evaluate subjective sounding speaker with one unit and do not see the difference between a Topping 50 dac that measure well and a better sounding DAC that measure worst but sounds way better ! Oh yes I know Placebo effect ! I call it myself the Soekris effect : looks good sounds bad whatever the numbers are saying! Don't tell it or a bunch of zombies without ears tells you you were contaminated by the placebo virus, sorta of autoimmune disease, uh !
Best answer imho : if you want to change the cap and see if another is better, only your ears can tell you, but 0.1 to 0.05 uF difference in some setup can be heard in some areas of the filter in some hifi with some loudspeakers, not always. So measure the cap first, try to buy some that are close enough with the margin I talk above, use the same soldering material, burn it in without being in the room for 50 to 100 hours then do your test with material you know like your pocket. Imo, for something really different, try another dielectric technology or sounding character : for instance you have a Jantszen, try a cap that sounds darker.
As far as you are aware that you are in the 90/10% TVGEEK is talking about, nothing bad, it is your own hard earned monney and it is a hobby that is more than just listening to music at this level (or we spent more in reccordings).
Of course YMMV, it's your ears and your hifi after all 🙂
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I am currently using the Janzen Silver. I like the regular Superior better. The Silver seems to have a bit of edge a bit too forward. So I am using an 8uf cap. I guess I could use one of my Janzen Superior 4.7 and buy a really good 3.3 uf cap to go in parallel. Anyone use the Miflex? been rreading good things about them.....
The drivers I am using are decent: Satori MW16P and TW29. My system is fairly high resolving, Rogue RP7, CJ Premier 12 moonoblocks, VPI Classic 2 with Dynavector 2X2L and Art Audio Vinyl Reference phono. Auralic Vega DAc and GR Research subs
Yeah- Amber are definitely not on my list due to price. I actually prefer the Silver to the Superior, but I can see how a rising response in a tweeter may not be the right application unless dealt with first.
Curious as I was looking at the TW29, did you tame the top end for on-axis or rely on off-axis response?
With what you have tied up in electronics, I can't see how any cap is expensive. Even coper foil. 😈
With what you have tied up in electronics, I can't see how any cap is expensive. Even coper foil. 😈
A lot of builders swear by this trick. Use a high-end capacitor of 0,1 uf in parallel with the capacitors you already have. Small enough in capacitance to not change the filter. But the crossover should behave almost like it was made completely of the high-end cap. And it's MUCH cheaper to try out, than buying all new caps.
Since you already have a complete crossover. I would strongly suggest you use this trick to see if you can tell the difference since you already have (what I would consider) high-end caps.
Since you already have a complete crossover. I would strongly suggest you use this trick to see if you can tell the difference since you already have (what I would consider) high-end caps.
You're listening for ANY difference you can. From there, you can decide on which sounds better. For a 'true' test you'd need a relay (with good, low resistance contacts. etc) and driver circuitry that switches between the caps every 15 seconds or so. Don't look at any indicator that might tell you when each cap it in the circuit until after you've decided which is the best sounding cap, if you can tell the difference at all.
A capacitance meter is very useful (I'd say essential) for matching caps and isn't a great expense (there are DMMs that measure capacitance starting under $20 or so), especially compared to the cost of "audio-specific" capacitors, and this will eliminate (or reduce to well below 0.1dB) any difference in sound due to varying frequency response. IMHO the biggest audible difference between two capacitors is the actual capacitance value. You need to eliminate that in order to evaluate any audio quality differences.
