Can vintage receivers and amplifier sound like new amplifiers? Lets discuss 1974 to 1980 vintage vs new amplifiers. New and vintage are of same design. There is no new technology. Both amplify a signal the same. Both use transistors, capacitors and resistors. Both have an AC to DC power supply. What are the differences? Plenty in the components. What is the difference in components?
First, the rectifiers are very quiet today in the power supply. The power supply is paramount to good sound. All an amplifier is, is a modulated power supply. Most new amps use Hexfred and some may use SIC rectifiers. Old receivers have noisy rectifiers and were not closed matched either adding to the noise. New amplifiers use better filtering vs old amplifiers or receivers.
The old capacitors in the audio coupling circuits (circuits that amlify the music) were of ordinary design and never produced to accurately pass audio. In older tube amps, they were quite good in many cases of passing good audio. Tube capacitors are low value film type capacitors thus better materials were used. Solid-state uses high capacitance electrolytic capacitors and these were not made to pass quality audio. They were the same as a power supply capacitor that has a different function. New amplifiers use what is called audio grade electrolytic capacitors and they greatly outperform the old capacitors.
The transistors are somewhat the same in late 1960s and '70s amplifiers. Old transistors were low noise audio transistors, but low noise at the time period. Newer transistors operate more quiet. But, the level of low noise does not make a large difference in the sound. Phono sections are the largest benefactors of quiet transistors. But, for the most partsnew transistors do not necessary sound better (some may disagree with me). The are exceptions such as First Watt amplifiers. But, you are getting into an area you may need $5K speakers to clearly hear the difference. First Watt has many models and the transistors are tuned for a certain sonic signature. If you can afford a $4K+ amplifier, you may have no interest in a vintage amplifier or receiver.
Resistors have not changed much. Older vintage used for the most part carbon resistors and newer amps use metal film. There are boutique resistors today vs none years ago. They may make a difference, but frankly not a lot. Most new amplifiers use standard metal film, not boutique resistors. In some cases new amplifiers may use carbon film for the more lush sound. Not a bad decision. Old potentiometers may require a DeQxit cleaning. I have always had good success on 'scratchy' pots, but you may need a new replacement. Most 1974-1980 used a separate power switch, thus new manufacture is readily available. If an odd resistance is encountered, replace with next higher resistance pot and bridge the potentiometer with a 1/2 watt resistor to achieve original resistance.
So, what happens to a quality designed vintage receiver or amplifier using the better new components and an upgraded power supply? A lot! First, the small soundstage becomes huge. Better clarity and lower distortion. This includes higher order distortion that also effects the quality of sound. The power supply can use 2 to 2.5 times the original capacitance for better filtering. The new capacitors are much smaller than old capacitors thus fit well in the higher capacitance values.
Old receivers and amplifiers may use an op-amp in the phono section and at times in the pre-amp. These old op-amps were not designed for quality audio like the new op-amps. And, some prefer discrete new design vs any op-amp.
Some think when you upgrade an vintage amplifier or receiver, you will still get the old sound. They also do not think the superior parts adds to the sound quality. These same audiophiles are not technical in the least.
I say you replaced the poor performing parts, what's left? Transistors? Older carbon resistors? The transistors do not make a huge difference. Both old and new are made out of the same silicon. Old carbon resistors are still used today. Basically carbon is carbon, nothing complicated about that!
An upgraded vintage amp and receiver will sound very different and very good. Rebuilders on ebay used audio grade capacitors. They may need to be prompt to double the power supply capacitor capacitance and to use Hexfred or SIC rectifiers, but they will and can upgrade your vintage receiver for a base cost around $400. They will check for out of tolerance resistors too. They also know what resistors to look for due to their experience.
I used to say no way to solid-state as I am a tube amp audiophile. I rebuild an Allied 395 (same as Pioneer SX-1000TW) and was shocked how good this receiver sounded. It is close in performance to my best tube amp and I used Revel M22 speakers that are reported to outperform KEF LS50. Not a shabby speaker to hear quality sound despite what one audiophile said. I have not directly compared my Allied 395 to a new Rega Brio or Cambridge CXA81 amplifier, but I think my Allied 395 would compare. Would my Allied 395 compare to a First Watt amp? No way, but it still sounds good.
Three non op-amp vintage receivers are: any Pioneer in the SX-800 (not SX-890) and higher number such as SX-1010, etc. Any Marantz 22xx series. And, the low cost sleeper? Onkyo TX-2500 MKII (40 watt per channel) & TX-4500 (60 watts per channel).
Your thoughts?
First, the rectifiers are very quiet today in the power supply. The power supply is paramount to good sound. All an amplifier is, is a modulated power supply. Most new amps use Hexfred and some may use SIC rectifiers. Old receivers have noisy rectifiers and were not closed matched either adding to the noise. New amplifiers use better filtering vs old amplifiers or receivers.
The old capacitors in the audio coupling circuits (circuits that amlify the music) were of ordinary design and never produced to accurately pass audio. In older tube amps, they were quite good in many cases of passing good audio. Tube capacitors are low value film type capacitors thus better materials were used. Solid-state uses high capacitance electrolytic capacitors and these were not made to pass quality audio. They were the same as a power supply capacitor that has a different function. New amplifiers use what is called audio grade electrolytic capacitors and they greatly outperform the old capacitors.
The transistors are somewhat the same in late 1960s and '70s amplifiers. Old transistors were low noise audio transistors, but low noise at the time period. Newer transistors operate more quiet. But, the level of low noise does not make a large difference in the sound. Phono sections are the largest benefactors of quiet transistors. But, for the most partsnew transistors do not necessary sound better (some may disagree with me). The are exceptions such as First Watt amplifiers. But, you are getting into an area you may need $5K speakers to clearly hear the difference. First Watt has many models and the transistors are tuned for a certain sonic signature. If you can afford a $4K+ amplifier, you may have no interest in a vintage amplifier or receiver.
Resistors have not changed much. Older vintage used for the most part carbon resistors and newer amps use metal film. There are boutique resistors today vs none years ago. They may make a difference, but frankly not a lot. Most new amplifiers use standard metal film, not boutique resistors. In some cases new amplifiers may use carbon film for the more lush sound. Not a bad decision. Old potentiometers may require a DeQxit cleaning. I have always had good success on 'scratchy' pots, but you may need a new replacement. Most 1974-1980 used a separate power switch, thus new manufacture is readily available. If an odd resistance is encountered, replace with next higher resistance pot and bridge the potentiometer with a 1/2 watt resistor to achieve original resistance.
So, what happens to a quality designed vintage receiver or amplifier using the better new components and an upgraded power supply? A lot! First, the small soundstage becomes huge. Better clarity and lower distortion. This includes higher order distortion that also effects the quality of sound. The power supply can use 2 to 2.5 times the original capacitance for better filtering. The new capacitors are much smaller than old capacitors thus fit well in the higher capacitance values.
Old receivers and amplifiers may use an op-amp in the phono section and at times in the pre-amp. These old op-amps were not designed for quality audio like the new op-amps. And, some prefer discrete new design vs any op-amp.
Some think when you upgrade an vintage amplifier or receiver, you will still get the old sound. They also do not think the superior parts adds to the sound quality. These same audiophiles are not technical in the least.
I say you replaced the poor performing parts, what's left? Transistors? Older carbon resistors? The transistors do not make a huge difference. Both old and new are made out of the same silicon. Old carbon resistors are still used today. Basically carbon is carbon, nothing complicated about that!
An upgraded vintage amp and receiver will sound very different and very good. Rebuilders on ebay used audio grade capacitors. They may need to be prompt to double the power supply capacitor capacitance and to use Hexfred or SIC rectifiers, but they will and can upgrade your vintage receiver for a base cost around $400. They will check for out of tolerance resistors too. They also know what resistors to look for due to their experience.
I used to say no way to solid-state as I am a tube amp audiophile. I rebuild an Allied 395 (same as Pioneer SX-1000TW) and was shocked how good this receiver sounded. It is close in performance to my best tube amp and I used Revel M22 speakers that are reported to outperform KEF LS50. Not a shabby speaker to hear quality sound despite what one audiophile said. I have not directly compared my Allied 395 to a new Rega Brio or Cambridge CXA81 amplifier, but I think my Allied 395 would compare. Would my Allied 395 compare to a First Watt amp? No way, but it still sounds good.
Three non op-amp vintage receivers are: any Pioneer in the SX-800 (not SX-890) and higher number such as SX-1010, etc. Any Marantz 22xx series. And, the low cost sleeper? Onkyo TX-2500 MKII (40 watt per channel) & TX-4500 (60 watts per channel).
Your thoughts?
Heard of Class D ?
Not the case at all.
Define audio grade capacitor because there is no such thing except the marketing.
You don't need a $4K amplifier or $5k speakers to reproduce high quality audio.
There's very few circuits where carbon resistors are needed, SMD resistors have been around for over 35 years and largely replaced through hole types.
What is a boutique resistor apart from the exorbitant price tag.
Well, if the 40 year old power supply electrolytics have dried out I'm not surprised the audio quality has degraded.
NE5532 op-amp has been around since the 1980's, sold millions for audio applications.
What do you expect if 40 year old capacitors have dried out, components have dry solder joints and whatever else happens to old electronics.
God help anyone who gets a vintage receiver repaired by an anonymous person on ebay.
Not comparing Class AB to Class D. Why would I? The old op-amp sold millions, does not make it good sounding, in fact is bad compared to audio quality newer op-amps. 1000s of audiophiles cannot hear the difference in ordinally power supply electrolytes and audio quality capacitors such as Muse or Silmic II? Nonsense. Ignore this post folks.
Today we have silicon-germanium integrated circuits, vastly improved electrolytic capacitors, a gigantic selection of very high quality MOSFETs, dirt cheap metal film resistors, and dirt cheap multilayer printed circuit boards. None of which were available to audio designers in 1976.
I suggest that Class D now outsells every other type of audio amplification device, high voltage bipolar transistors are disappearing and have been largely replaced by various types of mosfets for switching applications.
The days of vacuum tubes and high powered class A/AB Bipolar transistor amplifiers is numbered, technology has progressed since the 1920's and society does not care about the beliefs of 1000's of audiophiles.
The days of vacuum tubes and high powered class A/AB Bipolar transistor amplifiers is numbered, technology has progressed since the 1920's and society does not care about the beliefs of 1000's of audiophiles.
Vintage is AB, Class D is different technology. Why would I compare 'apples and oranges'? Why would you even mention it. Others chime in and your knowledge of old vs higher quality new parts is apparently zero. I am just looking for constructive posts. Your post is not. Why even post it? Peace.
All types of amps will still be around for many many more years, I remember when the solid state was all the buzz, almost everyone said the tubes would never make it back. Same thing with LP’s and CD’s, and they never stopped making turntables or records. And the are coming back big time. I’ve found that each type has its place. I used to use tube amps in my cars, not anymore, but I do love my tube gear in my house systems. Not a fan of class D in the house, but do like it in some of my car audio builds. But favor class a/b in my car systems a little more.
So do t think for a second that any one type is done with, if you feel that way. Your either to young or to close minded to really know anything about audio
So do t think for a second that any one type is done with, if you feel that way. Your either to young or to close minded to really know anything about audio
You stated there is no new technology versus vintage and new amplifiers, which is ridiculous and then you sign off asking for people's thoughts. I'm well versed in current technology and electronic components at least I know Class D is current technology and btw the post from Mark Johnson was actually in agreement with my previous statements but you missed the point.
No new technology in same type amps. I did not mention different technology amps such as class D. You are arguing a mute point. Next.
The market drives technology and manufacturers respond this is why mosfets have largely replaced bipolar transistors with some manufacturers abandoning their bipolar product lines altogether.
A couple of thousand audiophiles is not a viable business proposition for semiconductor manufacturers.
There must be five times the manufactures of Tube amps compared to five years ago. Tubes are not going away anytime soon with audiophiles and especially guitar players.
You said "New Amplifiers". You appear to be befuddled.
How is a consumer to know what type of technology is inside their receiver and do they care ?
Society has moved on, nobody really cares apart from a couple of thousand audiophiles about the sound of 1970's audio receivers
Befuddled? You are adding nothing constructive to my original post. You state 'all knowning' about technology but stated no advancements in newer parts that is nonsense. And arguing with others here. Go away.
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Your first post indicates a lack of basic electronics knowledge and of an opinion that any electronic component that isn't labelled as "audiophile grade" is inferior. Maybe read a datasheet before making these types of claims.
'Lack of basic electronics knowledge'- ridiculous. I build amps from individual components.
My post has a TROLL. 🙄
My post has a TROLL. 🙄
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I see you're not getting any traction on the Hoffman forum either. Calling people trolls that disagree with you isn't the way forward, and neither is bringing the fight here.
jeff
Says the person who is asking which rectifier diode sounds better - https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/sol...cis-cree-schottky-preference.html#post6645840
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The man is trolling me making false statements such as I have no basic electronic knowledge. Hoffman forum is full of trolls. Look at the statements there.
There is no consensus of what rectifier sounds better. I only use Hexfreds. I should not pose the question? You stated I do not know how to read datasheets. According to you I do not know what low switching noise power supplies are either. You build amps? Again your post is nonsense.
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