a700256 -
Interesting tone for a first post, but whatever...
Long story made short, there are 180 of these amps available, built with 40-yr old stock that is literally irreplaceable. That the demand is going to outstrip the supply has always been inevitable. They could have been priced at $5000 and every single one would have sold, and quickly.
Again, there are only ever going to be 180 of these with the Sony Vfet parts, and they are priced at cost. Hopefully those who get them build them and enjoy. In the near future there will be even more versions of this amp using readily available parts and they will still have most of the magic. I'm looking forward to all the combinations that will be available.
Good luck to all if you choose to participate.
Interesting tone for a first post, but whatever...
Long story made short, there are 180 of these amps available, built with 40-yr old stock that is literally irreplaceable. That the demand is going to outstrip the supply has always been inevitable. They could have been priced at $5000 and every single one would have sold, and quickly.
Again, there are only ever going to be 180 of these with the Sony Vfet parts, and they are priced at cost. Hopefully those who get them build them and enjoy. In the near future there will be even more versions of this amp using readily available parts and they will still have most of the magic. I'm looking forward to all the combinations that will be available.
Good luck to all if you choose to participate.
Yup, that includes me too. I have some spare VFETs so I'm leaving the LOTTO to others.
Law of supply and demand. Scarcity of a very limited supply ought to drive the price right up because of these things are not bring made at all now.
Having to design, test, partially build, test, pack, and deal with the logistics of 200 units available globally is already a feat (ask anyone who runs a group buy in that subforum how fun it is). Then deciding and debating how to quickly deal with this limited supply and then the process of who gets a unit... well, there are going to be winners and losers in any process -- lottery is about as fair as it comes. There are going to be some missing out on the 15 minute window.
To the bunch piecing the kits together, you do realize that you didn't need to do any of this for the diyaudio community. Commercially, using these components would have been a trip to the bank for Nelson Pass et al. Heck, even these Sony VFET designs did not have to be shared if you were corporate minded.
I said it back in a previous post here and I will say it again, to everyone involved in making this product available for this tiny community, thank you. Thank you for going against everything that a corporation would do and not pricing this out of reach for everyone (just a commercial grade chassis with extruded aluminum heat sinks, connector hardware, and finishing is priced competitively on some of the buy direct from China websites). I'm just happy to see this kit available for sale; it gives me hope. I may not get one in the lottery, but I'll still be happy for those who do receive a kit.
And for those not noticing, where do the proceeds go from this endeavour? To charities and not lining pockets. Damn, we are lucky to have a respected designer doing this for free making it within reach; no one does this because most aren't community minded.
As always, this may not be everyone's perfect amplifier project (maybe some don't like SE, the %THD, SS Class A, or whatever), and that is fine. There are other kits, projects, and alternatives available if this one doesn't suit you.
Having to design, test, partially build, test, pack, and deal with the logistics of 200 units available globally is already a feat (ask anyone who runs a group buy in that subforum how fun it is). Then deciding and debating how to quickly deal with this limited supply and then the process of who gets a unit... well, there are going to be winners and losers in any process -- lottery is about as fair as it comes. There are going to be some missing out on the 15 minute window.
To the bunch piecing the kits together, you do realize that you didn't need to do any of this for the diyaudio community. Commercially, using these components would have been a trip to the bank for Nelson Pass et al. Heck, even these Sony VFET designs did not have to be shared if you were corporate minded.
I said it back in a previous post here and I will say it again, to everyone involved in making this product available for this tiny community, thank you. Thank you for going against everything that a corporation would do and not pricing this out of reach for everyone (just a commercial grade chassis with extruded aluminum heat sinks, connector hardware, and finishing is priced competitively on some of the buy direct from China websites). I'm just happy to see this kit available for sale; it gives me hope. I may not get one in the lottery, but I'll still be happy for those who do receive a kit.
And for those not noticing, where do the proceeds go from this endeavour? To charities and not lining pockets. Damn, we are lucky to have a respected designer doing this for free making it within reach; no one does this because most aren't community minded.
As always, this may not be everyone's perfect amplifier project (maybe some don't like SE, the %THD, SS Class A, or whatever), and that is fine. There are other kits, projects, and alternatives available if this one doesn't suit you.
Sorry if it wasn't made clear to you that the most important part of the offering is an unobtainium part that hasn't been produced in decades. I think based on what you've written, you missed that. If you knew that, then most of what you have said wouldn't make sense.
You suggested we do a pre-order. Unfortunately that wouldn't solve the problem either. As soon as it's announced the first people to hear about it "win" and everyone else "loses". How can we solve that problem? For inspiration, I looked to similar communities with the same problem (too much demand, limited stock) - mechanical keyboards and burning man. All trying to solve the problems of:
- How to make it fair
- How to stop scalpers or duplicate accounts
- How to let the most enthusiastic, positive, and the most contributive members of the community be rewarded for the past behaviour and contributions
- Raffles
- Tight entry windows (sometimes 60 seconds!)
- Custom software
- Pre-registrations
- "Waiting rooms" where you sit for hours and wait to be randomly chosen while people slowly check-out the purchase
- Identity checks
The time was chosen so that it was as easy as possible for the majority of our membership (US and EU). If you're lucky enough to live in a part of the world where you will be awake at this time, and you don't find a way to make a post in that 15 minute window, then the enthusiasm filter is working exactly as intended.
Says it right there in the top left - this is a site for audio fanatics. It is not a site for the average joe.
In other niche communities such as I've mentioned lottery entry windows are now not just not nuts, but commonplace.
I've missed out on stuff myself because I was too lazy or unenthusiastic about to set my alarm or act on my alarm, and that thing went to someone who deserved it more than I did.
There will be simpler offerings in the future. But not at this price. And not containing unobtainium. You can't have your cake and eat it too, but you can choose
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For store offered chassis later on: May I suggest a universal front panel in order to keep the price low? The inscription might be engraved PASSDIY or anything along those lines. No need to insist on calling out a particular device past the special anniversary edition. This way we can even switch iterations as they become available. I might even try ZM's ludEF (only he will understand the hidden message here
). I think the difference is about another 10W/chan in dissipation?
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Thanks Jason for pointing that out. You saved me the trouble of having to respond. I can't think of a single person I've met at BAF who was average!
And thanks for all of the time and hard work you have put in to make this happen.
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Well . .
I am interested in these options for input stages or buffers too.
What are advantages/drawbacks?
Just for fun, I have a symmetric front-end laying around with a phase and inverse phase output - it stays stable under a closed loop too with an incredible bass definition. Same with the symetric Pass all fet preamp designs that cane be used universally.
Maybe this is something for a separate thread, as this looks like a lottery thread by now like nicoch remarks.
I am interested in these options for input stages or buffers too.
What are advantages/drawbacks?
I like the harmonics structure of Nelson's stock one. So I would like to keep that as reference.
Just for fun, I have a symmetric front-end laying around with a phase and inverse phase output - it stays stable under a closed loop too with an incredible bass definition. Same with the symetric Pass all fet preamp designs that cane be used universally.
Maybe this is something for a separate thread, as this looks like a lottery thread by now like nicoch remarks.
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The PSU is external, switch that on and off instead.
I was going to build a steampunk chassis for my THF51-S amps, I'm not so sure now, those chassis are lovely.
I can just see it, two tipple stacks in my living room, I might just skint myself for the next 12 months but it would be worth it
I’m trying to wrap my little brain around some of the design characteristics and put it in perspective with the other VFET amp designs that were offered and what I have built and listened to so far (ACA-with Semisouth @Q1 and F2J).
Let me know if I have any of it correct and what insights anyone may have.
This offering is a common drain follower. Which means it would normally offer current gain like the F2J except that the front end Papa designed for it will provide voltage gain via a transformer?
The previous 2017 DIY VFET was a push pull amp. Was it also a follower? Did it provide both voltage and current gain?
My main interest is trying to figure out what aspects of the circuit topologies might be similar and be lending themselves to the sound qualities I have enjoyed so far (especially with the F2J) while being used with the various fullrange drivers I have tried.
Papa talks a lot about second harmonic distortion...and in this article also mentions phase and reversing polarity to affect its positive and negative nature.
I understand the sound qualities, and whether one prefers one or the other, can be influenced by distortion and its polarity.
I’m trying to compare the attributes of the topologies and associate them with my listening experiences.
I’d love to hear from those that have heard this new VFET amp and also, if they compared it to other First Watt amp designs, what their impressions where.
Let me know if I have any of it correct and what insights anyone may have.
This offering is a common drain follower. Which means it would normally offer current gain like the F2J except that the front end Papa designed for it will provide voltage gain via a transformer?
The previous 2017 DIY VFET was a push pull amp. Was it also a follower? Did it provide both voltage and current gain?
My main interest is trying to figure out what aspects of the circuit topologies might be similar and be lending themselves to the sound qualities I have enjoyed so far (especially with the F2J) while being used with the various fullrange drivers I have tried.
Papa talks a lot about second harmonic distortion...and in this article also mentions phase and reversing polarity to affect its positive and negative nature.
I understand the sound qualities, and whether one prefers one or the other, can be influenced by distortion and its polarity.
I’m trying to compare the attributes of the topologies and associate them with my listening experiences.
I’d love to hear from those that have heard this new VFET amp and also, if they compared it to other First Watt amp designs, what their impressions where.
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Yes, you are correct on all.
Papa’s front end is one of five, with the Edcor. Mark Johnson designing the other four.
You can drive the OPS with your own voltage source as is is a follower, say with a tube linestage for fun ( my plan).
These devices have a lot of distortion and yes, the right levels of descending 2nd to third and so on does something, with the triode like curve of these devices, to give the impression of openness / space, amongst other things.....
This is the ziggurat of audio!
Cheers,
Greg
both previous Sony VFet amps were follower OS , Push Pull (so all gain being just current, not voltage)
first one, presented at some BAF which I didn't attend - I call it VFet amp with Zillion PSUs - our late Permaneder made pcb for finished iteration, was opposite of that - VFets working as PP pair, but in common source mode ( gain both in current and voltage realms)
difference to this one - do not expect much more difference than resulting from difference in power; in all of them VFet character dominating entire amp character, so .......
uh, yes - this one being follower, even if bstrd of VFet and Mos, but you can look at this MOS arrangement as mirror image of dominating VFet
as Papa use to say - snatch any, build any , you'll be happy
That was a very common response on the other Nelson Pass class A power amp project which had a bunch of different, interchangeable front end cards: The diyAudio First Watt M2x
I estimate that around 40-50% of the people who built an M2x, used the front end card designed by Nelson (called "Ishikawa" in the M2x-osphere) and never built or tried any of the other possibilities. Not even the front ends whose PCBs were automatically included as part of the M2x board bundle shipped by the diyAudio Store. Of the folks who did try other cards, it appears that most of them found one that they liked best of all, and usually it wasn't Ishikawa. That may not be a shocking outcome, since Ishikawa was only one out of eight competing front end cards. A diversity of personal tastes, and idiosyncratic preferences among the builders/listeners, naturally results in a wide distribution of final choices. They likes what they likes, as Popeye the Sailor Man would remark.
If I'm fortunate enough to build a Sony VFET amp, I'm sure I'll have fun trying different front ends. The M2x was great to tinker with. I ended up preferring either the Mtn View front end, or the Austin one, kind of depending on the mood I was in. I actually liked the Austin front end so much that I used it in my F6, with a modification to run at higher voltage power rails.
I digress. While I'm sure the Edcor front end for the Sony VFET will sound fabulous, I am also hoping that one of the alternate front ends will provide some modest gain, say 6dB to make up for the loss of gain in the output stage. My preamp was designed to drive power amps with higher gain, and doesn't sound its best when forced to provide higher voltages.
I digress. While I'm sure the Edcor front end for the Sony VFET will sound fabulous, I am also hoping that one of the alternate front ends will provide some modest gain, say 6dB to make up for the loss of gain in the output stage. My preamp was designed to drive power amps with higher gain, and doesn't sound its best when forced to provide higher voltages.