Hi guys, i am planning a 3 way with the PHL 4021 and the 18sound nsd1095 with xt1086 horn. But I am not sure about the mid driver. The crossover frequencies are approximately 150 and 1500. I don't need high spl, but high dynamics and very good transients. It shouldn't cost more than ~300euro.
mid drivers i consider right now are:
PHL 1120
PHL 2460
18sound nmb900 or mb420
What do you think?
mid drivers i consider right now are:
PHL 1120
PHL 2460
18sound nmb900 or mb420
What do you think?
1500hz should be fine beaming wise so I don't know what do you mean.
indeed, i considered the faital but I couldn't find an awful lot about them. i will have a closer look!
indeed, i considered the faital but I couldn't find an awful lot about them. i will have a closer look!
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yes, faitalpro is known for high efficiency and good power handling
their data can be trusted
how about 6PR122
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 6PR122 (8Ω)
their data can be trusted
how about 6PR122
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 6PR122 (8Ω)
This is a bit more complex than you might think..
1. 150 Hz is a big "ask" from a typical midrange driver. Most are lucky if they can do 300 Hz. It requires a fair bit of excursion vs. surface area (even if it's not going super loud). Fs should be at least as low as 80 Hz.
2. Worse, below baffle-step you've got about 4-6 db of pressure loss, so what might seem OK with perhaps a 96 db spl at 1w/1meter could average-out closer to 91 db (..depending on your high-pass crossover).
3. The more mass the driver has (for a given Sd), typically the lower the fidelity with regard to lower level detail (..or sound lower than the recording's average), though this also depends on the suspension as well (and in relation to force in the motor's gap).
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$300 total per loudspeaker or $300 total for both loudspeakers?
If it's the former then I'd come close to that with 2 of these 16 ohms (wired in parallel for the 6db gain):
8MDN51 LF Drivers - B&C Speakers
Speaker B&C Speakers 8MDN51, 16 ohm, 8 inch
If it's the former then I'd come close to that with 2 of these 16 ohms (wired in parallel for the 6db gain):
8MDN51 LF Drivers - B&C Speakers
Speaker B&C Speakers 8MDN51, 16 ohm, 8 inch
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1. well if I have to crossover at 200 that's fine too. the phl 4021 goes linear to 1k or something. the 18sound and the phl 2460, 2520 have fs lower than 80
2. is that a real problem with no need for high spl, the use of dsp and a higher xover if necessary?
3. i know, but the lower mms the higher fs. is that correct? so I need to find a balance there
ScottG: for one driver, but I am happy if it's less 🙂
-well, you asked for "High" sensitivity. What I was suggesting (2 of those drivers) would get you close to 98-99 db at 200 Hz WITH baffle-step compensation (assuming the amplifier doubled wattage from 16 to 8 ohms, and -3db from that figure if it didn't as it would likely be from an 8 ohm tap from a tube amplifier.)
Really it depends on the amplifier in a DSP-crossover design. It could be stupid-inefficient if you had enough power on tap.
The PHL 6" is absolutely a "no-go" not only because of it's higher Fs but particularly because it has no real excursion with a "flat-damped" surround. (..in fact it's real excursion is probably less than half of what's spec'ed.) Like-wise the 2520 is also not a good idea UNLESS you have a very steep high-pass filter at 200 Hz plus. It too has a flat-damped surround with likely less than 1mm of real excursion. IF contemplating this you should do box w/ power-input simulations to see if it will work for you or not. The 2460 on the other hand should be fine (but again, won't really be a higher sensitivity result with baffle-step compensation).
If you don't mind a lower sensitivity result with baffle-step compensation, I'd recommend the Dayton Audio PM220-8. Intertechnik should have them..
Really it depends on the amplifier in a DSP-crossover design. It could be stupid-inefficient if you had enough power on tap.
The PHL 6" is absolutely a "no-go" not only because of it's higher Fs but particularly because it has no real excursion with a "flat-damped" surround. (..in fact it's real excursion is probably less than half of what's spec'ed.) Like-wise the 2520 is also not a good idea UNLESS you have a very steep high-pass filter at 200 Hz plus. It too has a flat-damped surround with likely less than 1mm of real excursion. IF contemplating this you should do box w/ power-input simulations to see if it will work for you or not. The 2460 on the other hand should be fine (but again, won't really be a higher sensitivity result with baffle-step compensation).
If you don't mind a lower sensitivity result with baffle-step compensation, I'd recommend the Dayton Audio PM220-8. Intertechnik should have them..
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In my experience, you can do it with any of these. You simply can't play loud, whatever that means to you, I have no clue...
Thank your for taking the time.
The drivers will be powered by hypex plate amps, probably FA253. I chose high sensitivity speakers mainly for dynamics, not to power them with a tube amp. Therefore i thought that i would have enough headroom to not have to care about eg baffle step compensation
indeed, crossing the 1120 at 150 is stupid, i didnt meant to use it with a that low crossover.
So basically my options are:
dayton full range
18sound 8nmb420
PHl 2460
faytal pr??
B&C 8MDN51
From my point of view the 18sound looks best but my knowledge is quite limited as you probably noticed. That is also the one Troel used for one of The Loudspeaker designs that are somewhat similiar despite enclosure design, woofer and sealed/BR
So withouth trying the drivers it doesnt make sense to compare right? How would i ever know if the PHL, B&C, Faital or 18Sound is the best choice?
i wont listen to them much louder than 90db on 99% of occasions. I estimate...
That's interesting, Troels listened to to them and didn't hear any real problems, despite some measured issues!
I've done similar test with some metal cone bass drivers, I can't correlate the huge peaks with listening impression. I believe in many cases, people sees ghosts where there aren't any: The 18 SOUND 6ND410 didn't sound bad either, but this driver measures too bad for my taste.
Taste, huh!
@peterpan (beautiful name😱) Get yourself some measurement equipment and start beeping away to your neighbours and family's chagrin. You will cut time in your building process and lessen frustration a lot! And do you mean 90db at your neighbours place or 3m distance ;o)
I've done similar test with some metal cone bass drivers, I can't correlate the huge peaks with listening impression. I believe in many cases, people sees ghosts where there aren't any: The 18 SOUND 6ND410 didn't sound bad either, but this driver measures too bad for my taste.
Taste, huh!
@peterpan (beautiful name😱) Get yourself some measurement equipment and start beeping away to your neighbours and family's chagrin. You will cut time in your building process and lessen frustration a lot! And do you mean 90db at your neighbours place or 3m distance ;o)
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i tried to avoid ordering many different drivers and hoped to just pick one. its such a hassle of sending them back etc. But since i already have an umik1 i might do it...
Thank for the link. I'm using the 6nd430 with very good results but now I'm sold on the 8nmb20. It looks like it's transitions well with one of the Wavecore TW030s at 1500-2200hz depending on power handling requirements.
The B&C 8PE21 is going to be somewhat unbeatable in that range as a direct radiator and even a magnitude better in a good size horn. In a big horns I measure 108 db with 2.83 volts a yard a way ay 150 cycles and nearly dead flat to 1200.
I selected 8PE21, originally for a closed box design running from about 300Hz to about 1.8kHz, but my design took a different path going dipole. In fact bafleless dipole. In my current config, my midbass would like the 8PE21 to xo at 250Hz, but the midrange isn't best suited to go low (in baflelesses dipole).
But the sound is very, very good. My tweeter is TPL-150H in dipole and I find this to be a nice match. I have posted polar measurements in my dipole thread, if interested.
But the sound is very, very good. My tweeter is TPL-150H in dipole and I find this to be a nice match. I have posted polar measurements in my dipole thread, if interested.
the 8PE21 requires quite a high crossover and has higher mms and way higher fs than the mnb420. I think i will try the 18sound first and if it doesnt fit my needs i will test the others you guys mentioned!