Been following this thread:
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
I agree with a lot of the theory surrounding this speaker and setup, that's kind of rare for me. Mainly that a speaker should be centered around the largest woofer.
Is there a SS 22w thread?
I like this enclosure for the 22w:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellam-3W/ellam-flex-3w-cabinet-large.png
I might have to change the height, but I figure if I keep the length the same it should be okay. Or I might build a ported enclose that is tuned low. But I think I would like a TL.
Which full-range should I use? I like the look of the Seas 3-4 inch or at least a cast basket.
Some things took me way to long to realize:
I don't like highs, especially dome tweeters.
Most speakers have too much midrange and way too much treble, for my taste.
I usually EQ the treble down by 8 db and mids down by 6 db and raise the bass up by 12 db on a 2-way.
I have a "flat FR response" Dayton C-note kit I listen to now and I even have to turn the treble way down and bass way up on the receiver.
Audiophiles "trash" Bose speakers (and I do to
), but who is listening to these C-notes? They are PAINFUL to listen to un-EQed.
I had some Usher 2-ways in the same location.
Bought them from Joe D., the usher consultant. Put every usher woofer and tweeter in them, similar issues to the C-note.
I like Bose 301's better than any domed tweeter speakers I had in that location.
I do okay with ribbons and AMT's and Vifa/SS ring radiator, but I think I can do without.
Maybe a FAST with ring radiator or AMT?
Also I don't know what the acronym FAST stands for
10F/8424 & RS225-8 FAST / WAW Ref Monitor
I agree with a lot of the theory surrounding this speaker and setup, that's kind of rare for me. Mainly that a speaker should be centered around the largest woofer.
Is there a SS 22w thread?
I like this enclosure for the 22w:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Ellam-3W/ellam-flex-3w-cabinet-large.png
I might have to change the height, but I figure if I keep the length the same it should be okay. Or I might build a ported enclose that is tuned low. But I think I would like a TL.
Which full-range should I use? I like the look of the Seas 3-4 inch or at least a cast basket.
Some things took me way to long to realize:
I don't like highs, especially dome tweeters.
Most speakers have too much midrange and way too much treble, for my taste.
I usually EQ the treble down by 8 db and mids down by 6 db and raise the bass up by 12 db on a 2-way.
I have a "flat FR response" Dayton C-note kit I listen to now and I even have to turn the treble way down and bass way up on the receiver.
Audiophiles "trash" Bose speakers (and I do to
), but who is listening to these C-notes? They are PAINFUL to listen to un-EQed.I had some Usher 2-ways in the same location.
Bought them from Joe D., the usher consultant. Put every usher woofer and tweeter in them, similar issues to the C-note.
I like Bose 301's better than any domed tweeter speakers I had in that location.
I do okay with ribbons and AMT's and Vifa/SS ring radiator, but I think I can do without.
Maybe a FAST with ring radiator or AMT?
Also I don't know what the acronym FAST stands for
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There is a wealth of really good 3 and 4: drivers on the market. How a basket is designed is often more important than the material it is made out of.
My favorite 3s are the Alpair 5.2/3 (plastic basket), and teh FF85wk or Faital Pro 3F22 (stamped baskets, the Fostex partcualarily well designed). Vey smooth (ie little) top end, the 10F satisfies that but at a very dear price.
4” Alpair 7.3, maybe 7ms (still haven’t fired up any of mine yet).
They do not get anywhere near enuff to be used in a WAW — Woofer Assited Wideband, the new preferred term for a 2-way with a low XO, FAST is an acronym that makes little sense, ie a completely different thing, if you pay attention to what it expands to [FR with Subwoofer Technology — subs rarely go high enuff for use in a WAW).
dave
I agree mostly with Dave, altough i don't like that fostex that much as it's a bit artificial sounding to me. I wanted to add the Tang Band W3-1878, wich is slightly coloured but very easy to the ear if you don't like to much treble. Dave won't like it as it's coloured in the typical tang band way, but most do.
My pick would be the Mark Audio Alpiar 7HD or the Faital 3FE22, The 10F is to expensive for what it is, and the 5.3 is slightly too bright i think for you. Especially that Faital is a sleeper i think. I never used it before but heared it recently in a waw with a Dayton RS225 woofer and that was a great combo.
And for a fast you crossover lower than a typical 2 way, more like between 150 and 400Hz in most cases, and i prefer also a lower order. I do it in mine at 250Hz (with a 5.25" Mark Audio 10.3 FR and a 10" SS 26W/8534G00 woofer) in a 1st order serial.
My pick would be the Mark Audio Alpiar 7HD or the Faital 3FE22, The 10F is to expensive for what it is, and the 5.3 is slightly too bright i think for you. Especially that Faital is a sleeper i think. I never used it before but heared it recently in a waw with a Dayton RS225 woofer and that was a great combo.
And for a fast you crossover lower than a typical 2 way, more like between 150 and 400Hz in most cases, and i prefer also a lower order. I do it in mine at 250Hz (with a 5.25" Mark Audio 10.3 FR and a 10" SS 26W/8534G00 woofer) in a 1st order serial.
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I think the Bose 301 sounded very good. My parents had a set when I was a kid - I recalled that the sounded quite nice. It had a pair of paper cone tweeters in free space direct/reflecting arrangement and an 8in reflex woofer. I never thought that it might be a FAST type speaker, but maybe it has a rather low crossover point?
FAST = Fullrange Assisted Subwoofer Technology
Most “flat” speakers sound too bright - you may like the classic Harman tilted response. Drops about 5dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.
For a FAST to work well, the woofer needs to be very clean and flat and not have a lot of breakup within 3 octaves Of the XO point.
FAST = Fullrange Assisted Subwoofer Technology
Most “flat” speakers sound too bright - you may like the classic Harman tilted response. Drops about 5dB from 20Hz to 20kHz.
For a FAST to work well, the woofer needs to be very clean and flat and not have a lot of breakup within 3 octaves Of the XO point.
OP, if you do t like strong treble, I'd stay away from the Faitals.
The 10F mentioned is very easy on the ears, but a little pricey. The Visaton B80 is almost the same, a bit cheaper.
Finally, the SBA SB65 is also quite good. Voices are ok, but strings, wood winds and percussions are just amazing. Clear, clean and precise. But they would be better crossing a bit higher, like 500Hz.
The 10F mentioned is very easy on the ears, but a little pricey. The Visaton B80 is almost the same, a bit cheaper.
Finally, the SBA SB65 is also quite good. Voices are ok, but strings, wood winds and percussions are just amazing. Clear, clean and precise. But they would be better crossing a bit higher, like 500Hz.
Hey look, I just found some $1300 full-range drivers on my shelf.
"Audiophiles" sure love to get ripped off
Fostex FE103A 4" Alnico Full Range - Foster 70th Anniversary Limited Edition - Pair: Madisound Speaker Components
Okay so: 10F/8424 or FF85wk or Faital Pro 3F22 (16 ohm would be good for me), seem like good options.
I would guess Fostex would be the best because they are known for fullrange.
Fostex also seems like the most intricate and fussed with drivers.
I thought I had a pair of RS100-8 in my garage, I guess I lost or sold them; I doubt some one stole them
I like how the on-axis FR of the RS 100 does not rise after 2 KHz acorrding to Dayton Audio. I think Zaph measured one peak that can be filtered.
3-4" Fullrange drives look like they need a pair for each speaker off-set at around 30 degrees with respect to each other, a la Bose
Because as they start to beam, the SPL starts to rise, at around the same frequency. And rises about 3-6 decibels.
Yes, I have a pair of ScanSpeak 22W/8857T-00 woofers.
Was thinking of putting the RS52 and Airborn or Hivi Ribbon I have with them and then I was thinking FAST is FASTER (to make); pun semi-intended
I've never heard a speaker and said: "it doesn't have enough highs". Maybe, maybe, if I was just listening to an 18 inch subwoofer.
I have a RS52 and Airborn AMT and RS270S-8 in a tiny box now and was thinking of swapping the 22W into the speaker.
I like the AMT but it's super loud, I can attenuate it enough with the L-PADs on the speakers.
It is nice though, unlike a dome tweeter which sounds loud, slow and obnoxious.
I like build quality, bass, speed (pulse response) and simplicity.
Fountek FR88EX or FR89EX is no good?
Would get the 89 if I could because of lower sensitivity and anodized cone (not sure how it is coated actually).
Founktek is also one of those companies (like fostex) known for highs and mids.
Why can't they put a grill on the Fountek FM135D-II? Like the Fountek FW135H has. I struggle with grills.
Or the FR88-89 for that matter.
I guess while audiophiles like to get ripped off we're also cheap?
Can I stereotype audiophiles here?
"Audiophiles" sure love to get ripped off
Fostex FE103A 4" Alnico Full Range - Foster 70th Anniversary Limited Edition - Pair: Madisound Speaker Components
Okay so: 10F/8424 or FF85wk or Faital Pro 3F22 (16 ohm would be good for me), seem like good options.
I would guess Fostex would be the best because they are known for fullrange.
Fostex also seems like the most intricate and fussed with drivers.
I thought I had a pair of RS100-8 in my garage, I guess I lost or sold them; I doubt some one stole them
I like how the on-axis FR of the RS 100 does not rise after 2 KHz acorrding to Dayton Audio. I think Zaph measured one peak that can be filtered.
3-4" Fullrange drives look like they need a pair for each speaker off-set at around 30 degrees with respect to each other, a la Bose
Because as they start to beam, the SPL starts to rise, at around the same frequency. And rises about 3-6 decibels.
Yes, I have a pair of ScanSpeak 22W/8857T-00 woofers.
Was thinking of putting the RS52 and Airborn or Hivi Ribbon I have with them and then I was thinking FAST is FASTER (to make); pun semi-intended
I've never heard a speaker and said: "it doesn't have enough highs". Maybe, maybe, if I was just listening to an 18 inch subwoofer.
I have a RS52 and Airborn AMT and RS270S-8 in a tiny box now and was thinking of swapping the 22W into the speaker.
I like the AMT but it's super loud, I can attenuate it enough with the L-PADs on the speakers.
It is nice though, unlike a dome tweeter which sounds loud, slow and obnoxious.
I like build quality, bass, speed (pulse response) and simplicity.
Fountek FR88EX or FR89EX is no good?
Would get the 89 if I could because of lower sensitivity and anodized cone (not sure how it is coated actually).
Founktek is also one of those companies (like fostex) known for highs and mids.
Why can't they put a grill on the Fountek FM135D-II? Like the Fountek FW135H has. I struggle with grills.
Or the FR88-89 for that matter.
I guess while audiophiles like to get ripped off we're also cheap?
Can I stereotype audiophiles here?
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The 10F/8424 is state of the art motor, suspension, and pentagonal cut cone with neodymium magnets. Lower distortion, higher power handling, flatter and smoother frequency response. The FF85WK is stamped basket, low power handling, and motor and suspension from 30 years ago.
Founteks are good too.
Founteks are good too.
I have both the Scan Speak miidrange and the FF85wk. I find the Scan good, but clearly a mdrange not a FR.
Cast vrs stamped vrs plastic has a lot more to do with the peerformance of the driver than the material. The stamped Fostex basket has excellent design. FF85wk not as smooth up top as the Scan (at least before i do them up), but it has top where the Scan is lacking. And nothing wrong with its motor.
The Alpair 6.2p has what i call a vintage top end (ie restrained) but still outdoes the Scan.bIf you can find one it has the same sort of voicing as the Scan but goes much lower and overall sounds better.
dave
Cast vrs stamped vrs plastic has a lot more to do with the peerformance of the driver than the material. The stamped Fostex basket has excellent design. FF85wk not as smooth up top as the Scan (at least before i do them up), but it has top where the Scan is lacking. And nothing wrong with its motor.
The Alpair 6.2p has what i call a vintage top end (ie restrained) but still outdoes the Scan.bIf you can find one it has the same sort of voicing as the Scan but goes much lower and overall sounds better.
dave
Been thinking about picking up a pair of those to play with. Might get away with a simple crossover to the pair of TB W6-1139s I have sitting around.
Sensitivity will be low, but it's not like my PA amplifiers will see any use this year...
Chris
Pretty good when used on their own for desktop mini speakers.
Look at the dB levels at the side of the drivers graphs. To make them work with most designs they need probably at least another 5 - 10 dBs sensitivity as then you could at least attenuate them to match your chosen LF driver.
There may in fact be a suitable low efficiency LF driver that would work with them but you will need to search for one as I am not familiar with any that have such a low efficiency. Maybe a modern 5inch subwoofer design from the likes of Tang band or a Tymphany SDS-P830855 4" Woofer might just be workable.
Look at the dB levels at the side of the drivers graphs. To make them work with most designs they need probably at least another 5 - 10 dBs sensitivity as then you could at least attenuate them to match your chosen LF driver.
There may in fact be a suitable low efficiency LF driver that would work with them but you will need to search for one as I am not familiar with any that have such a low efficiency. Maybe a modern 5inch subwoofer design from the likes of Tang band or a Tymphany SDS-P830855 4" Woofer might just be workable.
I think for the price they are a sensible buy and if you are happy with their sensitivity for your design they may be the perfect choice.
Can you check suitability by copying the response and impedance graphs into Xsim or VituixCad and obtain the kind of falling response you describe. Failing that you would have to risk the cost of building a test cabinet or a pair of test cabinets.
BMR's do pop up from time to time in the odd kit and a few commercial loudspeaker and get a generally good press. Like all drivers ultimately dependent on good crossover implementation.
Can you check suitability by copying the response and impedance graphs into Xsim or VituixCad and obtain the kind of falling response you describe. Failing that you would have to risk the cost of building a test cabinet or a pair of test cabinets.
BMR's do pop up from time to time in the odd kit and a few commercial loudspeaker and get a generally good press. Like all drivers ultimately dependent on good crossover implementation.
I recall listening to the Tectonics vs other conventional FR drivers and recall that the sound was not as good as say, TC9FD , RS100, 3FE25, etc. There was just something off about them and I think it is that strange dip at 1,7kHz and the non-pistonic BMR action. But you may like how they sound. For the same price, I would take the TC9FD. Spend a little more and get the 3FE25-8.
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