I posted a while back about using the TB W8-1808 with subs in a living room setting. I ended up building a pair of X-LS Encores from GR Research with 2x of their sealed subs. They are fine speakers but in my application I find I have to keep the ports sealed or they sound very boomy. They are also inefficient and I’m interested in either going to active crossover or no crossover.
I’d like to find a new solution using the following notes:
- high efficiency, I’d like to switch to using lower powered amplification
- does not need to go low, I can cross the subs as high as 120hz
- open baffle implementation if possible, or sealed box, rear ports are a problem due to being close to wall
- good EQ solution, analog if possible but open to mini DSP
I’d like to hear some suggestions for good full range drivers and EQ/implementation ideas.
I’d like to find a new solution using the following notes:
- high efficiency, I’d like to switch to using lower powered amplification
- does not need to go low, I can cross the subs as high as 120hz
- open baffle implementation if possible, or sealed box, rear ports are a problem due to being close to wall
- good EQ solution, analog if possible but open to mini DSP
I’d like to hear some suggestions for good full range drivers and EQ/implementation ideas.
@birkbott Excellent full range drivers for open baffle made by Lii Audio. (I am not affiliated with them in any way). Also check Kevins site for many driver ideas, glowinthedarkaudio.
For sub duty, try GRS or Goldwood woofers, 18" or 15" in H frame. Typical dimensions I would suggest is 6" depth on both the sides, close to the frame, max 1-1.5" around the frame. The H frame setup rolls off lower than the driver Fs and crossed at 120Hz. Refer to MJK paper on H frames. A 2 way OB, with FR supplemented in H frame for bass is very easy to execute and is a great listening experience. I prefer running the FR from tube and H frame from Solid State, crossed active.
For sub duty, try GRS or Goldwood woofers, 18" or 15" in H frame. Typical dimensions I would suggest is 6" depth on both the sides, close to the frame, max 1-1.5" around the frame. The H frame setup rolls off lower than the driver Fs and crossed at 120Hz. Refer to MJK paper on H frames. A 2 way OB, with FR supplemented in H frame for bass is very easy to execute and is a great listening experience. I prefer running the FR from tube and H frame from Solid State, crossed active.
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8" frame was what the pioneers concluded for PA/wide range orchestra music down to 70 Hz at low distortion, though it was technically a 3-way [tri-ax/tri-flex], so need at least a co-ax [typically w/whizzer].
120 - 20 kHz ideally = ~7.07 cm [~2.783"] effective diameter = ~39.24 cm^2 [Sd], so whatever big tweeter frame size this is.
This is based on equal power distribution, so as driver [Sd] increases, biasing towards the low end, the VC coil ideally needs to be decreased proportionately in diameter to counter it, but hard to find < 1" dia. VC in popular size drivers, so more of the BW becomes non pistonic as the trade-off.
All that said, I grew up with co/tri-ax 'FR' drivers up to 15" with RCA co-ax 15" much preferred for OB in the form of open back speakers, consoles, so suggest you at least browse the new Fane 3-way: SOVEREIGN 15-300TC
GM
120 - 20 kHz ideally = ~7.07 cm [~2.783"] effective diameter = ~39.24 cm^2 [Sd], so whatever big tweeter frame size this is.
This is based on equal power distribution, so as driver [Sd] increases, biasing towards the low end, the VC coil ideally needs to be decreased proportionately in diameter to counter it, but hard to find < 1" dia. VC in popular size drivers, so more of the BW becomes non pistonic as the trade-off.
All that said, I grew up with co/tri-ax 'FR' drivers up to 15" with RCA co-ax 15" much preferred for OB in the form of open back speakers, consoles, so suggest you at least browse the new Fane 3-way: SOVEREIGN 15-300TC
GM
Great suggestions thanks everyone. The Lii Fast 8 is going on my list.
Assuming that I end up going with an 8” driver (I don’t have room for a 15” driver at the moment unfortunately), how big should my baffle be if I’m starting with open baffle? Would 12”w x 18” tall be sufficient with 12” “wings” folded back on each side?
Assuming that I end up going with an 8” driver (I don’t have room for a 15” driver at the moment unfortunately), how big should my baffle be if I’m starting with open baffle? Would 12”w x 18” tall be sufficient with 12” “wings” folded back on each side?
Fast 8 is highest VFM driver with great HF extension, in Lii Audio collection.
Basta software, gives you an idea of what low end roll off you may be looking at using a particular driver on a particular baffle.
Tolvan Data
Its desirable to use high Qts drivers for OB, be it an FR or a woofer, which essentially along with baffle size decides your low end roll off. In case of FR, adds warmth and full body to mid. And eventually helps add a woofer for bass duties.
But in real life, I always ended up using larger baffle size as was simulated by Basta, particularly in case of FRs.
Off centering FRs on baffle is a good idea. One way to do that is to use larger side wing on any one side.
Basta software, gives you an idea of what low end roll off you may be looking at using a particular driver on a particular baffle.
Tolvan Data
Its desirable to use high Qts drivers for OB, be it an FR or a woofer, which essentially along with baffle size decides your low end roll off. In case of FR, adds warmth and full body to mid. And eventually helps add a woofer for bass duties.
But in real life, I always ended up using larger baffle size as was simulated by Basta, particularly in case of FRs.
Off centering FRs on baffle is a good idea. One way to do that is to use larger side wing on any one side.
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Thanks everyone I decided to go with the AN Super 8 Ferrites. I will test them out in the basement and hopefully integrate them into my main system if I like them.
Has anyone here ever heard the Ultralinear amp offering from Audio Nirvana? I’m interested in getting into tubes but want to keep costs down.
Has anyone here ever heard the Ultralinear amp offering from Audio Nirvana? I’m interested in getting into tubes but want to keep costs down.
Right, it's not that it can't play down to ~0.707x Fs, just that it will roll off high and be very low SPL. Speaker design is primarily about how much efficiency one is willing to trade for a wider useful [LF] BW.
Coupled to a matching impedance tube amp doubles Qes, so nearly doubles Qts with a ~0.4 yielding a max flat BW.
GM
Coupled to a matching impedance tube amp doubles Qes, so nearly doubles Qts with a ~0.4 yielding a max flat BW.
GM
Lii Audio introduced F6 as a car full range driver. It’s was just $55 a pair shipped. The cones and surrounds were like Coral Flat. I had other plans for it. I measured the Qts at 1.32 and 93 dB sensitivity. Placed it on a large baffle and played with SE 6L6 and it started doing magic. Updated the designer and he was shocked. Then it led to development of many more drivers, specific for OB. Fast 8 is like Coral Beta, atleast for me, at much lesser price. And it plays wonderfully in OB driven from tube amps.
Well the AN Super 8s arrived today. I stuck them in a simple 3/4” MDF baffle and currently have them on top of my subs. I will say I am impressed at the liveliness of these drivers. Imaging is excellent. Female vocals really stand out and seem to float in the room. My only complaints are lack of fullness/bass which was predicted. I have the sub crossover maxed out at 120 but still feel like I may be missing something, although I haven’t taken any measurements. Also I find the sound to be a bit “hands cupped around mouth” sounding but not a huge amount. Overall they are detailed and engaging. My old speakers were more balanced but sound dull in comparison.
My power amps are Emotiva PA-1s. I’m very heavily considering building a Tubelab SSE but am thinking of trying a TubeCube 7 in the meantime. Anyone had experience with either of those? Will I see a big change in tone switching to the TubeCube?
I’m eagerly awaiting the Lii Fast 8s so I can compare them.
My power amps are Emotiva PA-1s. I’m very heavily considering building a Tubelab SSE but am thinking of trying a TubeCube 7 in the meantime. Anyone had experience with either of those? Will I see a big change in tone switching to the TubeCube?
I’m eagerly awaiting the Lii Fast 8s so I can compare them.
Understood and lucky you, I've only briefly auditioned an early 8" AN nestled in throw pillows in a corner of a large padded chair, so basically a high pitched AM radio performance till listening way off axis, though considering not broken in either, have heard a lot worse at a much higher price.
Not just an 8 ohm tap, but one that has an 8 ohm output impedance, i.e. DF = 1
Depends on what you mean by 'right' since it will depend on your desired performance requirements in your room driven by your electronics and of course we all hear the same, yet not so much we can 'speak' for others on this subject.
GM
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